Questions for the tree makers

[1horsetown]

I stumbled across this forum a couple of weeks ago in my attempt to research saddle trees and have been very impressed with the knowledge base represented here. I have some questions that I'd like to ask.

I have a Haflinger. Think rather short, extreme bulldog type. 13HH and 8 hands wide. He's the gamest horse I've ever ridden. Excellent brain and cute personality.

His conformation challenge is that he's built a little down hill. Not tragically, but somewhat.

I read somewhere (ages ago) that a build-up can be constructed into a tree. I'd like to level up the saddle around an inch, maybe a hair more.

I'm currently using a saddle made by an endurance type saddle maker. It seems to fit my guy pretty well, but I keep thinking that some things would be easier for him if the balance was shifted.

I've tried a couple of different front lift pads, but they just won't work for real life riding. What wither this horse has completely disappears and ,all of a sudden, I'm sitting on a greased pig. The saddle is completely lost. And let me tell you, you look totally ridiculous using a mounting block to get on a 13HH horse!!

I have the one horse. I will keep the one horse. I'm a one horse at a time person. I'm willing to spend the money to make this one happy/comfortable.

I'm currently obsessed with Extreme/Ultimate Trail Challenges. I'm taking roping lessons and would like to do Ranch Horse Versatility in the future. I hang out with a very traditional crowd, so I'm thinking Wade.

So.........What can be done for this situation? Seat alterations? Build up?

thanks in advance for your input. Kelly and Shorty in SW Iowa.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse, your post opens the quandary for custom saddle and tree makers - Do I build a saddle to fit an unusual shaped horse?

First, can it be done? Partially. I am sure a saddle could be built to fit your horse which is better than an off the rack saddle, since from your description your horse is at the far end of the bell curve of horse shapes, and most saddles are built to fit horses in the middle section of the bell curve. Could a saddle ever fit your horse as well as a horse that has a back that is shaped better to hold a saddle in place? ie. not totally convex or flat in every direction? No. Some backs are shaped to hold a saddle better than others, and yours isn't one of those. (I'm sure that isn't news to you.)

Second, should it be done? This is the dilemma. On one hand, you are an owner willing to put in the money and effort to get a better fitting saddle, and it is not your horse's fault his shape is not conducive to holding a saddle well. But on the other hand, your statement "I'm a one horse at a time person" is the key. As much as you love this horse, he won't stay young, sound, and with you forever. At some point the saddle won't be used on him any longer, and then what happens? Finding another horse with the same unusual conformation that the saddle will fit is unlikely, especially if it is sold. And everywhere that saddle goes, not fitting horses, it carries the maker's name and reputation with it. So every maker has to decide for themselves if they will do this or not. Some will. Many won't.

That said, it is probably better to make changes in the groundseat for yourself than by trying to build up the front of the tree. You want the horn as close to the horse as you can get it to reduce leverage if you ever plan on roping. Roping off a horse of this conformation can be "interesting". I am not trying to discourage you, but realistically there is a reason why most working horses used on a ranch have a good set of withers on a back shaped differently than your horse's. Raising the horn by building up the front of the tree will make the tree even more unstable when roped from.

Hopefully some of the saddle makers on here will have more suggestions for you.

I did a bit of looking about Haflingers. They seem to be used as harness horses a lot. The qualities that make a good pulling horse don't always make a good riding horse, so I am curious - did they start out as draft type animals that are now ridden, do you know?

[1horsetown]

My current saddle, with a 3/4" wool felt pad and a mohair cinch, stays put. Mounting, dismounting, small jumps, dragging big fence posts, etc. He's got some wither to work with. I dragged a 100# fence post all over the property last night and the saddle never budged.

If I try to add something to the pad to lift the front a little we get into 'greased pig' territory. It's like trying to wear 6 pairs of socks with your favorite boots, though. They just don't fit like they were intended to.

Which is why I'm wondering about a build up. If it's built into the saddle, it wouldn't do the 'greased pig' thing.

Shorty isn't terribly downhill, I just want him to be comfortable. This is mostly an exploration of what is possible to that end.

Haffies are pretty normally still rideable into their 30's. Shorty is 10. If there's no chance of the saddle fitting another horse, I'd happily toss it into the same hole as the horse (when the time comes). I have to admit, I'm pretty hooked on Haffies. The next horse will probably be a Haffie too, hopefully from the same bloodline. I plan on having this horse til it's time to plant him.

Haflingers were developed by the Austrian military in the 1800's. They wanted a military use horse, so they designed one. Haffies are a cross between an Arab stallion named Folie and Austrian draft mares, the more refined the better. The result was kind of the Austrian answer to the American Morgan. Big enough to ride, nice enough to drive, heavy enough to pull, agile enough to pack supplies through the Alps, and still gentle enough to be a family horse. All Haffies are half Folie and half draft.

Alot of them do drive, but more of them are ridden these days.

We have no idea how Shorty came out looking like he does. No other horse in his family has his build. The bulldog build is common,but is unusual for his family tree. All Haffies are DNA tested, so we know who his parents are. He has 16 FULL brothers and sisters. His dam and sire are in their mid/upper 20's and still going strong.

You've given me some things to think about. Thanks Kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Thanks for the info on Haflingers. Always good to learn more.

You say that your current saddle stays in place and works well unless you over pad it. Is he showing signs of soreness, or what makes you think he isn't comfortable now? I'm not sure I am understanding why you are wanting to change things if you think the saddle fits him well now. Or are you not feeling balanced in the saddle and you're thinking that might be affecting him? I still don't think I have the correct picture of the why behind your question, which probably affects the answer to it.

Thanks for persisting.

Edited June 7, 2009 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[1horsetown]

I've had Shorty about 3 years. Before that I had a 2 Eyed Jack gelding that was pretty thoroughbredish. (read: wide as a picket fence and a colossal set of withers.) Cinches were kinda decorative on Roc. You didn't need one to keep the saddle on.

But during the 20+ years I had Roc I did over 8 years of dressage. English riders in general and my trainer in particular are obsessed with 'leveling the saddle'. Roc was pretty level, but we had to pad out his withers because there didn't seem to be a saddle in my price range that worked with his build. Custom english saddles can cost more than custom western saddles.

I've fought with saddle fit on Shorty as long as I've had him. I started with an Arab barred saddle that left dry spots and migrated to a treeless for a bit. I used a draft barred slick fork for a while. Shorty was morbidly obese when I got him and it took a while to get him trim (I took 300# off him). Haffies have the digestive integrity of a cockroach, you don't feed them like other horses. The draft saddle fit pretty good til Shorty lost weight and then it left dry spots on both sides of the spine. The draft saddle made me tip forward, so it probably made the situation worse. I also had to see the chiro after each ride.

The current saddle still has inconsistent sweat patterns, but I don't know if it's damage from previous saddles or if it's this saddle. They are in the same places. I moved the rigging back to the 3/4 position the other night, but haven't worked up enough of a sweat to know if the pattern has changed. Could the rigging be causing some of the problem? The cinch looks better placed now that it's moved back. This saddle really helps me sit up, so I feel like I'm sitting properly. Shorty's 'saddling behaviors' have disappeared and he moves out better than he has since I've had him. So I know the situation is improved.

So....in conclusion. I'm seeing inconsistent patterns, but I'm not sure if they're old saddle fit issues still showing or current issues. A friend of mine has a mule that lived with terrible saddle fit for about a year and even though they have corrected the fit, the mule's back is too damaged to sweat consistently, even 4 years later. AND.......I've got a 'level the saddle' hangover from my dressage days that's maybe making me over thinking this. I know just enough about saddle fit to be dangerous.

kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Kelly

The idea of having a "level seat" is common when I read about fitting English saddles, but I have yet to get a clear idea what is really means. Different people describe it differently. Could you please describe from a rider's perspective what you understand a "level seat" to be?

When you say you see inconsistent sweat patterns, does that mean you have dry spots in different places after your rides?

[1horsetown]

My trainer wanted the seat parallel to the ground. You couldn't post properly unless the position was exact. It had nothing to do with the position of the saddle in relation to the horse.

Consistent sweat marks, to me, would be no dry spots. Shorty gets them in the same place every time. They are very similar to the dry spots from the previous saddle, which is why I can't really tell if they are new or old.

kelly

[AndyKnight]

for a previous saddle to affect the fit of the current saddle it must have done soft tissue damage to where there is chronic swelling. ( This will be able to be noticeable) This will then cause a future saddle to be prone to also cause too much pressure in the same spot. In most case swelling will be temporary. Denise will be more qualified to address that.

If you are getting dry spots from excessive pressure it can be relieved by "padding away from the pressure." Never add more padding to alleviate pressure.

Your current saddle may be no better than your first saddle. The best way to determine saddle fit is by riding . I would suggest that as the dry spots are consistent on every ride is that you still have issues.

The" Level seat " is put into the saddle by the saddlemaker in the ground seat. The other factor that will have some bearing on this is the position of the stirrup leathers in relation to the low spot of the seat. So on a saddle that is going to be used on a down hill horse the saddlemaker may at his dicretion shape the seat accordingly. The issue then becomes whether the saddlemaker wants to do this knowing that the saddle will likely end up on normal horses and the the balanced seat will now put the rider in a butt back and feet ahead seat.

Rigging may change pressure spots to a degree however if you can ride with a loose cinch it will show whether it is a rigging issue or your weight causing a tree fit issue. Riding with an overly tight cinch will compound saddlefit problems and also the weight of the rider. The heavier a rider is and also the more out of balance ,the more poor saddle fit is exasperated

I am not sure if I explained myself very well.

Andy

Edited June 8, 2009 by AndyKnight

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse

It must be a terminology thing. The seats in most saddles - English and western - are so curved (in many various ways) that there is rarely a flat enough area to determine how "parallel to the ground" it may or may not be. Yes, if a saddle is tipped forward or backward enough it can affect the way the rider sits (sqare, tilted forward or leaned back) and where the stirrups fall relative to their body position, but that is due to the shape of the seat and the shape of the rider. Making a flat spot that is parallel to the ground is no guarantee that the seat will position a rider correctly. Most dining room chairs have seats that are parallel to the ground but I wouldn't want to sit on one of them when riding a horse. As Andy said, where the low point is (gravity always works), how the groundseat is shaped and the stirrup position relative to the seat are what is most important in positioning a rider correctly and comfortably. That is what good saddle makers do well. You say that "This saddle really helps me sit up, so I feel like I'm sitting properly." Sounds good to me. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, especially to fit a "rule" that may or may not be correct.

A friend of mine has a mule that lived with terrible saddle fit for about a year and even though they have corrected the fit, the mule's back is too damaged to sweat consistently, even 4 years later.

First question - can he ever sweat there? If he can sweat in those areas at times other than when he wears a saddle, then he does not have permanent damage to his sweat glands leading to the dry spots. I would think that damage so severe as to cause sweat gland disruption would be seen or felt in the skin other ways as well. To the best of my knowledge at this time, most long term saddle damage causes atrophy of the underlying muscles, not chronic swelling. Again, if there was scar tissue forming lumps causing the problem, they also would be easily felt. So this is a new idea to me.

Calling in Bruce or Chuck here. Any experience with this veterinary wise?

Edited June 8, 2009 by Denise

[Traveller]

First question - can he ever sweat there? If he can sweat in those areas at times other than when he wears a saddle, then he does not have permanent damage to his sweat glands leading to the dry spots.

Perhaps if you lunged him with a bareback pad on you'd find out whether he was permanently damaged or not. If it's a warm day, he should sweat underneath the pad and any lack of sweat marks won't be influenced by the rider's weight.

As for building a custom saddle, maybe you could find out whether a saddle built for your horse would fit on another horse after he's gone. I'm having some difficulty fitting saddles on my horse and have learned that, though he'll have to have a slightly different tree than your average horse, it can be built in such a way that the saddle will fit regular horses as well as him. (By the way, I'm not a saddle maker, just a saddle buyer!)

Good luck!

Joanne

[1horsetown]

Since I had kids: If I need to remember it, I write it down and stick it to the fridge. It's been 10+ years since I've thought about this stuff.

The trainer had some ideal of the rivets on the sides of the head and the lowest part of the seat and how they related to each other. You can't go by the height of the cantle, particularly on dressage saddles, because some of them are just plain ridiculous.

My friends' mule NEVER sweats in those dry spots. They hauled her bosom buddy out one roasting hot day. She lost her mind and ran the fence. That mule was running with sweat every where but the spots that stayed dry under the saddle. The friend hauled this mule to WI to have one of those electronic pressure sensing pads used on the mule with her new saddle and the scan came back very good. There were a few white hairs in the dry areas for a couple of years, but they've since disappeared. The mule is a sorrel.

The bareback pad to check the sweat patterns is an interesting thought. Might have to try that. I'll try riding with a looser cinch and see if that does anything. My last saddle slid all over. I got in the habit of really cinching up tight. I probably don't need to do that so much with this saddle.

I know Shorty is built a little downhill. My mindset ,due to past experiences, is--make it level. Maybe I don't need to do it as long as the ground seat will give me the freedom to somewhat choose my position?

Shorty's back doesn't look to have any unusual lumps, bumps, or bulges, at least to my inexperienced eye. Other than being wide, I don't think there's anything that unusual about it.

My current saddle is the best match so far. I feel like I have a good secure, upright position and Shorty is moving better and behaving like he's happier than he's been. The last of his white hairs disappeared this spring. But the saddle was made by a co. that specializes in endurance saddles. It's lightweight, under 25#. They did what they could to make the saddle stronger, but it's NOT a roping saddle. I would like to do a Wade for my next saddle. It'll be my largest saddle expenditure probably of my lifetime. I'm trying to figure out what's do-able and what's not.

kelly

[ccpowell]

From the Veterinary perspective, and Bruce is likely more experienced than myself, but I would love to see pictures before and after riding, and possibly after the bareback pad idea, then I may be able to offer my 2 cents (may not even be worth that much ). I would expect swelling to occur immediately or fairly soon after riding (as long as the tissue isn't too damaged to swell) and atrophy to be evident if there was severe damage from past poorly fitting saddles. Incidentally, I have trained a couple haflingers to ride for a client of mine, and they are nice little horses, and definitely can be hard to keep a saddle on. As far as dry spots are concerned, I would love to hear other opinions on this- but I have seen very good fitting saddles on horses and seen dry spots with no soreness or swelling or future white hairs- I am not convinced that they are always a sign of trouble. I have also seen horses ridden hard with good fitting saddles and good wool pads that were wet everywhere except where the saddle was- an entire blanket area dry spot! I have ridden horses before and done lots of turns and spins and direction changes, and had the shoulder area look dry when the hair was actually damp but ruffled up some when I took the saddle off, since that area tends to move more than the rest of the back under the saddle. Does this area get more air during riding due to the motion? I have used the same saddle on the same horse on long trail rides or longer days gathering big pastures with less repetitive turning and had the whole back equally wet when I pulled the saddle. I would love to hear more opinions on the dry spot issue. I owned a mare when I was a kid that bucked the previous owner off every time he rode her for 2 years, and she never bucked with me- she had swellings on her shoulders from his weight (he was a very big man) and a poor fitting saddle, and she took her revenge frequently before I got her. I think that if your horse is more comfortable, then you have made big progress already. Please post pictures if you can,

Chuck

Since I had kids: If I need to remember it, I write it down and stick it to the fridge. It's been 10+ years since I've thought about this stuff.

The trainer had some ideal of the rivets on the sides of the head and the lowest part of the seat and how they related to each other. You can't go by the height of the cantle, particularly on dressage saddles, because some of them are just plain ridiculous.

My friends' mule NEVER sweats in those dry spots. They hauled her bosom buddy out one roasting hot day. She lost her mind and ran the fence. That mule was running with sweat every where but the spots that stayed dry under the saddle. The friend hauled this mule to WI to have one of those electronic pressure sensing pads used on the mule with her new saddle and the scan came back very good. There were a few white hairs in the dry areas for a couple of years, but they've since disappeared. The mule is a sorrel.

The bareback pad to check the sweat patterns is an interesting thought. Might have to try that. I'll try riding with a looser cinch and see if that does anything. My last saddle slid all over. I got in the habit of really cinching up tight. I probably don't need to do that so much with this saddle.

I know Shorty is built a little downhill. My mindset ,due to past experiences, is--make it level. Maybe I don't need to do it as long as the ground seat will give me the freedom to somewhat choose my position?

Shorty's back doesn't look to have any unusual lumps, bumps, or bulges, at least to my inexperienced eye. Other than being wide, I don't think there's anything that unusual about it.

My current saddle is the best match so far. I feel like I have a good secure, upright position and Shorty is moving better and behaving like he's happier than he's been. The last of his white hairs disappeared this spring. But the saddle was made by a co. that specializes in endurance saddles. It's lightweight, under 25#. They did what they could to make the saddle stronger, but it's NOT a roping saddle. I would like to do a Wade for my next saddle. It'll be my largest saddle expenditure probably of my lifetime. I'm trying to figure out what's do-able and what's not.

kelly

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

1horse

Interesting about the mule. I expect that to be pretty unusual though. I would be surprised if your horse was the same, but never say never...

From what you say, your seat is good. It positions you well and keeps you balanced. I think all the "rules" are made to try to see a good seat, when you really need to feel it to know if it is good or not. The saddle you ride stays put, even when you pull with it. You horse is moving well and behaviour problems with saddling have disappeared as well. All this is sounding very good. Dry spots - not ideal, but we agree with Chuck that they do not always indicate serious problems - IF everything else is OK. ie. no swelling, soreness, behavioural issues, etc. From what we know by just reading here, for this saddle - if it ain't broke..

In wanting another saddle to rope from, you are in the same place as when you buy women's clothing - the numbers and terms mean NOTHING when comparing between makers. While you have some good basics on what to look for here, you know that you have to try it on to see if it fits. And with a horse, this means ride it.

Reiterating the different components of fit that you will be checking:

1.) The angle of the bars, and how they change from front to back (Note: the change in angle is called the twist in Western terminology. Twist in English terminology refers to the narrowest part of the saddle.) On your guy, you obviously need a very flat angle. Check this all along the bar, not just at the front.

2.) The width between the bars, sometimes called spread. Most production trees combine the spread and angle so as the angle gets flatter, the bars also get wider apart. This is the basic difference between semi-QH, QH and full QH. It doesn't help if you have a smaller horse with a flat angle to their back, which is what you have. This is why the draft saddle didn't work after he lost weight. It may have had a good angle, but there was too much spread between the bars.

3.) Gullet clearance

4.) Bar length - which might be a concern on your smaller guy

5.) Amount of rock

6.) Shape of the bottom of the bar - how much crown there is. On this guy, you will want a fairly flat bar (side to side). This may help with the dry spotting too. You don't want a really bulgy shape on the bottom.

And you can't tell all these by a name or "size", or even by looking and feeling. Basically, you gotta ride it to know how it really works on your horse.

[ccpowell]

One thing to consider- would a custom saddle maker consider having a tree made custom to this horse, then build the saddle custom as well, and engrave it and/or tooling specific to the type of horse and rider? Would this help with the issue of maker reputation beyond the useful life of the horse? It would certainly be the best way to have a roping saddle that fit the horse and rider. As far as the downhill build, maybe some of the experienced custom saddle makers could jump in here and give insight? Maybe more buildup in front in the ground seat and perhaps a little more angle in the cantle?

Chuck

1horse

Interesting about the mule. I expect that to be pretty unusual though. I would be surprised if your horse was the same, but never say never...

From what you say, your seat is good. It positions you well and keeps you balanced. I think all the "rules" are made to try to see a good seat, when you really need to feel it to know if it is good or not. The saddle you ride stays put, even when you pull with it. You horse is moving well and behaviour problems with saddling have disappeared as well. All this is sounding very good. Dry spots - not ideal, but we agree with Chuck that they do not always indicate serious problems - IF everything else is OK. ie. no swelling, soreness, behavioural issues, etc. From what we know by just reading here, for this saddle - if it ain't broke..

In wanting another saddle to rope from, you are in the same place as when you buy women's clothing - the numbers and terms mean NOTHING when comparing between makers. While you have some good basics on what to look for here, you know that you have to try it on to see if it fits. And with a horse, this means ride it.

Reiterating the different components of fit that you will be checking:

1.) The angle of the bars, and how they change from front to back (Note: the change in angle is called the twist in Western terminology. Twist in English terminology refers to the narrowest part of the saddle.) On your guy, you obviously need a very flat angle. Check this all along the bar, not just at the front.

2.) The width between the bars, sometimes called spread. Most production trees combine the spread and angle so as the angle gets flatter, the bars also get wider apart. This is the basic difference between semi-QH, QH and full QH. It doesn't help if you have a smaller horse with a flat angle to their back, which is what you have. This is why the draft saddle didn't work after he lost weight. It may have had a good angle, but there was too much spread between the bars.

3.) Gullet clearance

4.) Bar length - which might be a concern on your smaller guy

5.) Amount of rock

6.) Shape of the bottom of the bar - how much crown there is. On this guy, you will want a fairly flat bar (side to side). This may help with the dry spotting too. You don't want a really bulgy shape on the bottom.

And you can't tell all these by a name or "size", or even by looking and feeling. Basically, you gotta ride it to know how it really works on your horse.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

1 Horse,

Denise, and the others are making a lot of valid points, and their experience in the area is from very different points of view. I will add this, I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) I told her at the time that the saddle that I made for here horse would likely not fit most other horses and that once she did sell that horse she should sell that saddle with the horse also. Sure enough, a couple of years later, she called me to see if I wanted buy the saddle back. Of course I didn't. She eventually donated it to a horse shelter for the tax write off. Fortunately, some time later some folks that had a similar fit problem, happened by shear luck, to end up with the saddle and it now has a happy home. Bottom line here is, the first advice was the best. Get a horse to use that has more standard conformation and save yourself a lot of trouble, aggravation, and expense. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to retire your "half" to the pasture and some loving care and have a second horse to use.

I know about wanting your horses to be happy, I have 2 out there that I can't use any more because of medical problems they have developed over the years, but; they have earned a happy home and that is where they will stay. By the way, the cutting horse with bad hips may not be able to cut anymore, but; she is the best babysitter for my grand children you could ever imagine! There is life after riding.

Bondo Bob

[ccpowell]

I have been trying to research the dry spot issue, and it is fairly frustrating. Most of the information out there is anecdotal at best. Here is a link to the AAEP website and a fairly comprehensive article on saddle fitting. At the beginning of the article, it lists in bullet point fashion signs of poor saddle fit, and dry spots is not on the list. Later in the article it mentions dry spots and states that they may be caused by lack of pressure first, then too much pressure as well. It could be that the spots frequently seen on shoulders is because of movement in this area and consequently more cooling and less sweating in this area. If there are dry spots with no pain, swelling, discomfort, or unwillingness to perform under saddle, then they may be insignificant. If anyone has more info or experience on this subject, please add on or PM me, I really want to gather data on the dry spot subject. Here is the link

http://www.aaep.org/health_articles_view.php?id=331

Bob, you make a great point from the perspective of the saddle maker- what an owner tells you with regard to never selling the saddle could in fact come back to bite you in the posterior region! I know a vet who had a client swear that they wouldn't sell a cow, and he treated her cancer eye with off label chemo drugs. Later he found out that the cow was sold, and ended up finding her at a sale barn on the other side of the state. He managed to get there and get in the bidding for the cow, but buyers quickly caught on to the fact that a vet was trying to buy a cancer-eye cow, and bid him up. Consequently, it cost him a lot of time and money because of a "I won't sell" verbal guarantee!

Maybe checking the Dennis Lane cards on this horse, then comparing to other haflingers would lead to an easier decision by horse owner and saddle maker as to whether or not to make a saddle specifically for this horse- it may lead to the development of the "Halflinger Tree"- something else to consider,

Chuck

1 Horse,

Denise, and the others are making a lot of valid points, and their experience in the area is from very different points of view. I will add this, I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) I told her at the time that the saddle that I made for here horse would likely not fit most other horses and that once she did sell that horse she should sell that saddle with the horse also. Sure enough, a couple of years later, she called me to see if I wanted buy the saddle back. Of course I didn't. She eventually donated it to a horse shelter for the tax write off. Fortunately, some time later some folks that had a similar fit problem, happened by shear luck, to end up with the saddle and it now has a happy home. Bottom line here is, the first advice was the best. Get a horse to use that has more standard conformation and save yourself a lot of trouble, aggravation, and expense. It would probably be cheaper in the long run to retire your "half" to the pasture and some loving care and have a second horse to use.

I know about wanting your horses to be happy, I have 2 out there that I can't use any more because of medical problems they have developed over the years, but; they have earned a happy home and that is where they will stay. By the way, the cutting horse with bad hips may not be able to cut anymore, but; she is the best babysitter for my grand children you could ever imagine! There is life after riding.

Bondo Bob

[1horsetown]

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that all horses have issues. When you get a different horse, you don't get no issues, you get different issues. The idea is to pick a horse with issues you can deal with. Some of the things you might consider issues, may not be to others.

For what it's worth. Some pics of Shorty. I marked the back of the scapulas. They line up perfectly with the base of his mane. I also marked what I thought was the lowest point of his back. It's 11 inches from the base of the mane to the low point mark. Just to give you some scale. I cut down the pixels. I'm on dial-up and big files are a nightmare.

I'm on my own with the horse, so he's not quite as square as I'd like, but he's close. There's no level concrete on our place. Anything less than 100 years old is built by the 'close enough, sorta-kinda' rule. His fronts are a bit lower than his rears, between an inch and 2. It's just a general idea of what he looks like.

I rode Shorty today to see if I could get some pics of his sweat patterns, but it was, evidently, too nice a day to get a good sweat going. The temps will be in the 90's next week.

I weight taped him today. He's right at 1050. He could lose a bit more, but he's not ridiculously heavy.

I do agree that many saddle pads are made out of materials that breathe well enough that they could leave odd marks. They've come to the conclusion that backs should be ventilated. I'd also considered that. The dry areas could be the places with the greatest air movement. I'd still like to do the bareback pad experiment. I don't have a bareback pad. Do you think my treeless saddle would work? I'd also thought about putting plastic under it to limit air movement. Wouldn't do that for a long ride, but for a little lunging???

kelly

[bruce johnson]

Kelly,

Cute little horse, and he looks like he could drag a dead steer out of a well. It sounds like if you got a saddle to fit this horse, there are more like him around so the deaal about not being able to find another to fit might not be much of an issue. If you got one, it fits and whatever happens on down the road, those people might like that saddle. They'd probably be dealing with the same issues of finding something to work on their bulldoggy horses.

As far as the past issues with saddle fit, it does sound frustrating. I would be suspicious of a few things Denise has already touched on. One is the profile of the bottom of the bars. He looks fairly full in the pictures. Some treemakers put a more crown in their bars than others. If you are familiar with Dennis Lane's card system - they are making "S" bars. If you have a horse with a flatter back the center of that crown is putting more pressure on. A flatter bar ("D" profile) will spread it out more. If all the saddles you try are crowned bars, the angles and spreads might be within tolerances, pretty much ride alright and stay put, but the saddle still will have a ridge of pressure down the center of the bar.

I am going to step out and suggest something here. You are going to probably have issues trying to find a saddle without squeezing a lot of lemons trying to find one to make lemonade. You can try several brands of saddles and still might be trying all the same or very similar trees in every one of them. You might need some spread, rock and bar length stuff that just isn't out there very commonly.

You are in SW Iowa. I would load up Halfie and take him on a bus ride to see Jon Watsabaugh if he is willing. Pretty sure he lives near Des Moines. Jon is a member here and makes saddle trees. He could probably set a few bar patterns on him see what is going to work and what isn't. Even if a custom saddle is not in the cards, at least you'd have an idea of what might work, and eliminate a boatload of what won't.

[1horsetown]

Saddles are frustrating. Or I should say saddle FIT is frustrating. My old horse had a 5-1/2" gullet. He was a thrill to fit also.

That's interesting about the different bars.

I'm happy to have the input from this forum. The saddle makers I've talked to previous buy mass produced trees and know nothing about them except that you put leather on them. I'm learning alot here.

My main obstacle is my location. I absolutely cannot get my horse to Montana, Idaho, Nevada, etc where most of the tree builders seem to reside. I could reasonably haul as far as Des Moines or some other place within 3 or 4 hours. Being a stay at home mom with pre-schoolers has it's limitations.

Yes, Shorty presents some challenges. But he's a good horse and I enjoy him.

I'd be okay with a saddle maker who decided against putting his mark on my saddle. I understand the need to protect their reputation. I'd be okay with a maker stamping the seat with "This saddle was made for Shorty. It will NOT fit your horse." Up front honesty.

I don't think Shorty's build is all that different from many other Haffies.

I will order a set of Dennis' cards. If nothing else, I'm curious to see how my horse sizes up. I've spent more than that out of curiousity.

thanks Kelly

[jwwright]

Kelly, as Bruce mentioned, Jon Watsabaugh is at Des Moines. He's a great tree maker and saddle maker............I think it would be worth your trip. Send me a PM if you would like his contact information. I'm not too sure how often Jon checks in here. JW

[AndyKnight]

it will be interesting to see how your horse measures with the DL cards. By the pics I would expect most factory made trees to be too straight.( not enough rocker) . Other than that his back looks good as far pics are concerned .

[daviD A Morris]

...I once made a saddle for a woman, that fit her horse correctly. It was a 1/2 arab 1/2 standardbred. The result was a very mutton withered, downhill standing, horse with a short back. It actually looked like a halflinger, kinda. Well, at first I told her that after she tried a dozen different saddles on her, none fit, and her saddle shop was getting tired of seeing her come into the shop to return saddles, my first suggestion was to get a different horse that she could use and enjoy regularly without the expense of a new custom built saddle. That did not work and she had me make her a saddle to fit her horse anyway! ( I will never do that again!) ....

Bondo Bob

I've been in similar situations. One advantage of using Dennis Lane's back profiling cards is that now I can stamp on the saddle (on the skirts under the seat jockey) the measurements of the horse that I made the tree to fit. For example, a saddle for this horse would have something like " D8D9D10R6 ". As more and more people become familiar with the DL cards it can be easy for a prospective purchaser of a used saddle with that stamped on it, to know what kind of horse's back it was intended to fit. Now as people become more informed they will also know what kind of range of sizes that that saddle will also fit. That is, to make use of the saddle on other horses you don't have to find another with that exact same DL profile numbers. Just how far from those sizes you can go with a reasonable fit is still up for a lot of debate, and research, but at least at this stage, if I'm buying a used saddle that had " D8D9D10R6 " stamped on it, I would not use it on a horse that measured "S6S6S7R12", damage the horse's back and then try blaming the guy whose name is on the maker stamp.

Kelly,

Great photographs, it makes much easier to discuss these things when we can actualy see something.

Personaly, I am now shying away from correlating any particular back shapes with breeds. The more measurements that I now have using the DL card system the more I am avoiding the idea of "breed type backs". As an example, about 6 months ago I measured 2 horses with same owner, one was a welsh mountain pony, 13hh, the other a warmblood, 17.2hh and both horses measured D9 and D10 at positions "B" and "C". At "A" the warmblood had a higher wither than the pony. Both had R6 rock. They were both being ridden regularly in the same dressage saddle which fitted near perfect.

Appologies to those not familiar with DL system, for qoting numbers and jargon. This might help http://www.dennislane.com.au/

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

I agree with Bruce. Your little guy is cute! And stout! As far as trying to see if the dry spots are saddle related or not, all you need is something that won't put pressure in the same place on his back as his regular saddle does. Give the treeless a try. If he sweats where he usually dry spots, you know it isn't a long term problem with him. If he doesn't then trying something else will be needed as I wouldn't take one trial as a total conformation that he can't sweat there. You never know if there are similar pressure spots since often the pressure points are over a roundness in the horse himself. I would recommend staying away from the plastic though. I think it would act like the neoprene saddle pads that "relieve dry spots". They do this not necessarily by helping the fit but by holding in the heat so the horse sweats and since there is no place for the sweat to go except across the pad or down, it makes everything wet and then runs down the horse's sides. Looks like an even sweat pattern but doesn't necessarily tell you about the pressure anywhere.

Regarding dry spots, as far as we can tell, all there is out there is anecdotal information. I haven't been able to find any research at all done on the effects of pressure on a horse's back. Every measurement of pressure I have seen quoted, if I can trace its origins, is extrapolated from pressure sore studies on basically immobile humans. Nobody has ever tested how much pressure is OK on a horse's mobile back under a saddle, or how much pressure (over how much time - that is an important factor too) it takes to stop sweating, or disrupt blood supply, or cause swelling, or cause muscle damage, etc. etc. We just really don't have a clue. There was an article in the March 2003 Western Horseman where they interviewed Chuck Stormes, Dale Harwood, Steve Mecum and Peter Campbell. In a side bar entitled The White Hair Myth (page 70), they state "The experts interviewed for this story were all quick to say that white hair or dry marks don't mean a saddle doesn't fit. It could be a saddle-fit problem, or it could be nothing." Anecdotal, sure, but we have found a lot of people, especially working cowboys with a lot of hours on top of horses in a lot of different conditions, say the same thing. And we agree. I am sure it is never ideal, but I also don't think it is always a problem either.

[1horsetown]

Shorty is a chunka horse. After riding a very narrow horse for many years, he was an adjustment. He's just wide all over. His bridle has a 15" wedge to wedge browband measurement.

I'll order the DL cards today. I'd like to have the measurements in hand before I talk to anyone seriously.

It was a post by Jon Watsabaugh that popped up on a Google search that brought me here in the first place. I just couldn't believe there was a saddle maker that close to me. I will definitely talk to him if a 'hands on' session is necessary.

The area I live in is still in the dark ages when it comes to horses. They're ignorant and they like it that way. If it's labelled a QH tree, it will fit ALL QH's. If it's labelled an Arab tree, it will fit ALL Arabs. A Haflinger? Who the heck rides anything but QHs? Not saying those trees don't fit some horses, but they aren't a magic bullet. I'm not finding much support locally. I don't believe I'm going to find what this horse needs in a mass produced tree. The tack shop with the most saddles available is about an hour and a half from me. By the time I drive back and forth with saddles that don't fit, I'll have half the cost of a custom saddle paid out in gas money and babysitters.

When the temps go up next week I'll put the treeless on and try a sweat marks test. No plastic. I had wondered if it would help the results or hinder them. I was leaning towards hinder anyway. My treeless is lined with poly fleece, which is why I was thinking the plastic sheet.

Okay, trying to move forward.

thanks every one. K

[Tosch]

Early on in this discussion Denise asked about information on Haflinger. Nowadays they come in all shapes - form old fashioned draft to modern sport horse. Much more information can be found here : http://www.haflinger-tirol.com/english/index.htm. Hope it helps.

Tosch