For Me ... Important Question About Copying

[MyNewHobby]

I belong to another group ... Rock Tumbling Hobby and everyone shares their work and designs and everything else. In the past if I have seen something that really catches my eye, I will try to do it to see if I can.

I just want to make sure that if I see something I would like to try, I am not infringing on anyone else or stepping on any toes. I also ask this as if I do make something, I would like to feel free to post it here so I can get critiquing, criticism, and all the help I can use.

Thanks Loads!!

[King's X]

This has come up before. Usually if someone does not want you to copy it, they will not post it here. Sometimes, they will post a picture about it, but you ask them for directions, pattern or plans. You will either get nothing in your request or they will flat out ignore you (it has happened). But remember that any plan change be changed a little to meet your design needs and it will look totally different. I mean how many of the old cravers copied someone like Al Stohlman, but changed the design differently just slightly? I bet a lot of people.

I believe the best bet would be to PM the orginator and kindly ask. Go from there.

[Tina]

I belong to another group ... Rock Tumbling Hobby and everyone shares their work and designs and everything else. In the past if I have seen something that really catches my eye, I will try to do it to see if I can.

I just want to make sure that if I see something I would like to try, I am not infringing on anyone else or stepping on any toes. I also ask this as if I do make something, I would like to feel free to post it here so I can get critiquing, criticism, and all the help I can use.

Thanks Loads!!

Hi there and I for one is glad you asked:-)

I only speak for my self here...

I keep putting a copyright symbol on the things I make and post here (and anywhere else). I always promise my customers that as far as I go this will be the only one in the hopes that the copyright symbol will be respected and no one will make copys of my work. Legally I have the copyright to any original work I make/draw etc.

I Do share patterns every now and again by posting original patterns in the pattern area for anyone to use.

I know it's "a djugle out there" but truth be told,

-it's OK to use an idea...Make it your own and don't rip it of is my advice:-)

[King's X]

Exactly. Very nicely said by the soon to be foiegner. Just kidding Tina.

She is one of those members who does a lot of her own design work and I am glad she chimed in because I had her mind when you started this thread. Since I am artisically challenged when it comes to actually putting pencil to paper, I take the next appropriate step. I have a couple of projects that will hopefully be published (if they get accepted) by LCSJ magazine. The original pattern is not my work, but I have made a couple of changes. I contacted both original makers and asked for their permission to use the "original" pattern with my take on it. I will then give them credit in the article. I believe that is the only respectful thing to do.

Just like many things here that I've learned, I always give credit to those that have taught me something related to leather like Master Sansei Bob "Hidepounder" Parks. And, I will always put forward a lesson to someone new, but I will make sure that they know who taught me. I just think it is the appropriate thing to do.

My .02 cents.

[Rayban]

Tina, do you have to register such work with a copyright office of some sort?

[Tina]

Tina, do you have to register such work with a copyright office of some sort?

Simple answer...No:-) If you want to have the option to take cases to court you might do that to make the case easier but, as long as it is puplished in one shape for or another it's easy for to prove who was the first one. A creator always own the original material if you don't sell the rights:-)

Now, IF I have red the law right you have the right to copy if the artist/creator has been dead more than 75 years (in the US...Other coutries/continets might be different)...I'm sure there will be exseptions to this law, all I know is that it should be OK to copy the old masters like Da Vinici, Michelangelo etc...There is no one alive making a claim:-)

Edited July 30, 2009 by Tina

[Spence]

Copyright Laws

With respect, Tina

I recently had to do some research for a friend of mine, concerning her artwork. Just putting the "Circle C" on a piece of work or mailing it to oneself, does not constitute a legal copyright. An application has to be submitted to the US Copyright Office and a fee (?) paid. From what I could learn, it can take years for your copyright to come back approved.

What my friend does now, and I seem to remember you doing it, is to place your name across the print, to interrupt the pattern in such a way as to make it difficult to trace or copy.

[TwinOaks]

Back to the OP....

Short answer: If you're making ONE to improve your skills, AND it's for you (personal use), then there shouldn't be a problem.

Long answer: Do a search for [ "copyright infringement"]. copy and paste everything in the bracket in the search window. That should help you find the multipage thread on the topic.

[Crystal]

I found this: http://www.whatiscopyright.org/ Some interesting reading.

Crystal

[Rayban]

New Hobby.....when I see something on this forum or on someone's web site that I like enough to want to try making for myself, I usually mention my intentions to that maker....(so far, no lawsuits), but I don't believe I have to.

[hidepounder]

I found this: http://www.whatiscopyright.org/ Some interesting reading.

Crystal

Thanks Crystal, I found that very informative.

Bob

[cem]

Copyright Laws

With respect, Tina

I recently had to do some research for a friend of mine, concerning her artwork. Just putting the "Circle C" on a piece of work or mailing it to oneself, does not constitute a legal copyright. An application has to be submitted to the US Copyright Office and a fee (?) paid. From what I could learn, it can take years for your copyright to come back approved.

What my friend does now, and I seem to remember you doing it, is to place your name across the print, to interrupt the pattern in such a way as to make it difficult to trace or copy.

The mailing to yourself thing has always amused me and I'm still bewildered that people still think it's a viable way to copyright (it came up recently on another forum I visit). This method has a flaw that some people just can't seem to grasp ie you can send yourself an empty non stuck down envelope and put the drawings etc in afterwards.

You always need to check what your country does in regard to copyright in Australia you don't need to lodge anywhere copyright is automatic to the creator as long as the rights haven't been sold and the artwork carries the c symbol, persons name and year created.

In regards to the original poster always check first like others have said some are fine with it others are not, I haven't posted any of my work here yet because I want to get my website up first and that is taking alot longer than I hoped due to my day job. But I will probably be one of the nots, not because I don't want to but because I am doing original artwork for customers that are paying for just that.

Clair

[Jordan]

To me a pattern is completely different than the artwork that is placed on a finished item. Also, anyone is free to use anything I post, as I feel posting it implies my permission to use it. Besides, I am flattered that someone would think enough of my work to copy it. Of course if they got rich off of it, I would re-access my thoughts on the subject and demand morning coffee and donuts for life. LOL

[Tina]

Copyright Laws

With respect, Tina

I recently had to do some research for a friend of mine, concerning her artwork. Just putting the "Circle C" on a piece of work or mailing it to oneself, does not constitute a legal copyright. An application has to be submitted to the US Copyright Office and a fee (?) paid. From what I could learn, it can take years for your copyright to come back approved.

You always need to check what your country does in regard to copyright in Australia you don't need to lodge anywhere copyright is automatic to the creator as long as the rights haven't been sold and the artwork carries the c symbol, persons name and year created.

Sweden has a similar law as Australia. I have had art shows and such in Sweden sinse over 10 yars ago and I just jumped the guns and thought the copyright law looked the same all over...I stand corrected and what I thought I had I do, but just not in in the US. This makes me think more than twice before posting anything in the future...But even so, the US law seams to say that I do own my own art (or did I read that wrong?) If so, that must i practise means that if I draw some origial art it is mine if I can prove I did it first? Posting it in public is one way??? I'm not sure I got this last one right???

To me a pattern is completely different than the artwork that is placed on a finished item. Also, anyone is free to use anything I post, as I feel posting it implies my permission to use it. Besides, I am flattered that someone would think enough of my work to copy it. Of course if they got rich off of it, I would re-access my thoughts on the subject and demand morning coffee and donuts for life. LOL

Hi Jordan, I like your honesty:-)

It does however make me think three times more before posting anything in the future that I am not villing to share and see duplicated. I do have an obligation to my buyers too with the originallity:-)

Edited July 31, 2009 by Tina

[UKRay]

Personally, I would feel a great sense of loss if you stopped posting your work here, Tina. Your originality is what makes your work great - and what makes people want to copy it of course!

Ray

[whinewine]

Copyright Laws

With respect, Tina

I recently had to do some research for a friend of mine, concerning her artwork. Just putting the "Circle C" on a piece of work or mailing it to oneself, does not constitute a legal copyright. An application has to be submitted to the US Copyright Office and a fee (?) paid. From what I could learn, it can take years for your copyright to come back approved.

What my friend does now, and I seem to remember you doing it, is to place your name across the print, to interrupt the pattern in such a way as to make it difficult to trace or copy.

I know that there have been some changes, & I haven't followed them, so I can't speak with any authority on any subsequent revisions, but in the Copyright Law of January 1, 1978, it states that all one needs to do is to either use the 'c' within a circle or put: 'copyright 19__ (now 20__) and your name' on your work. The premise is that you own all rights to your work from the moment of creation unless you sell off one or more of these rights. By that law, it was unnecessary to register your work with the copyright office unless you chose to do so. And it wasn't necessary to mail the circle c to onesself, either. In the '70s, I was writing and freelancing articles and photography to magazines for a living, so it was important to know what to do to protect one's works. And one thing I never did was to sell 'all rights' to anything I did.

Unfortunately, if someone chooses to steal one's work, then there is no easy legal remedy except the court system (& that's not easy or fun).

russ

[yan]

I am Canadian so the laws is not the same,

but anyways, when you talk ''copyright'' and ''trademark'' your talking about money

The amont of money your ready to spend in court defending it.

As long as the person does'nt make profit with the copy (for personnal use) I am not even certain their will be a case.

Now, I don't have the talent of most of the artist here and I would be very sad if some of you stop posting the inspiration the new guys need to improved.

[hidepounder]

This is an interesting subject. It's been discussed here before and I still can't seem to find a place to land. I have mixed emotions about what is right, wrong, practical or impractical. These are just a few random thoughts which will probably result in no conclusions.

I could be wrong about this, but I believe that the more accomplished toolers or pros have no interest in copying someone else's patterns. They may discover new elements in anothers work which they decide to incorporate into their own, but I think for the most part they would prefer to create their own designs.

So, if the more accomplished toolers aren't copying.....who is, and does it matter? I guess the answer would be those who are just starting out and are trying to learn and maybe those who have graduated from the novice level to what I will call the amatuer level for lack of a better term. Maybe I should say intermediate level. Personally I encourage novice toolers to copy. I think it is one of the best ways to learn the art and develop a unique style. It is essential to be able to compare your work to that of a more advanced tooler in order to make the appropriate changes and improvements.

So, should I be concerned about sharing a pattern with a novice tooler? Is he going to compromise me by tooling a pattern that I spent many hours developing? At the risk of sounding pompous or arogant, I think the answer is no. In my experience most novices are unable to reproduce a pattern and make it look much like the original. In addition, they don't have a market to sell to much outside their own support group of family and friends.

What about the amatuer? Does an accomplished tooler run any risk by sharing a pattern with an amatuer? I think the answer is yes. While an amatuer does not have the ablity to reproduce the work as it was originally designed, he can come close enough to make it desirable for sale at some level. So does this mean I will lose potential sales because I shared a pattern or because a pattern was copied? Maybe. However it may be likely that individual purchasing amatuer level work might not be willing to pay for professional work.

Okay, so where is the harm? The amatuer benefits by reproducing something that I created and sold it to someone who can't afford me, right? In my opinion, the problem is that I have developed a pattern and sold it to an individual who was willing to pay me a lot of money for original work.

Lets say it's a belt. My customer, while sporting his new, expensive, original design belt runs into someone wearing a copy that sold for a lot less money. Will he be upset? Should he be? I mean, part of what I am selling is my original design, after all. And unfortunately, the reality of the matter is, that my customer's untrained eye is probably incapable of distinguishing many of the differences between my work and the copy....he's relying on my name for that.

I think this is where the accomplished tooler or pro may be at risk in sharing patterns. And what should be done about those who copy for financial gain? Copyrights may help determine where the design originated but pursuing infringements legally is probably impractical. This is where I have difficulty deciding what is right or wrong. And what are the practical solutions? I don't know the answers. I do know that I want to say thanks to those with the integrity to ask for permission...you have my respect and support!

Bob

[cem]

To me a pattern is completely different than the artwork that is placed on a finished item.

To some people though it isn't, they think they can copy everything I will probably share some patterns here that I have come up with as I think they will be of use to some members here but they will be plain. I see patterns as the actual leather dimensions to make something but Hidepounder sees patterns as the tooling designs so there are differences in what terms mean to different people as well.

Sweden has a similar law as Australia. I have had art shows and such in Sweden sinse over 10 yars ago and I just jumped the guns and thought the copyright law looked the same all over...I stand corrected and what I thought I had I do, but just not in in the US. This makes me think more than twice before posting anything in the future...But even so, the US law seams to say that I do own my own art (or did I read that wrong?) If so, that must i practise means that if I draw some origial art it is mine if I can prove I did it first? Posting it in public is one way??? I'm not sure I got this last one right???

Tina from what I have seen you post you have just put the c symbol for full copyright you need your name and year created, for countries that are part of the Berne Convention and if Sweden is you don't need to do anything more than that. The differences between countries using the Berne convention are more to do with when the artwork lapses into public domain.

All the stuff with registering copyright in the US came when the American congress tried to get the Orphan works bill passed as far as I know it hasn't and I'm not sure what it meant for international artists anyway.

Those interested in copyright should read the link Crystal posted it explains everything really well and if you want to see what some people and companies try to get away with in regards to commercial endevours check this site out www.youthoughtwewouldntnotice.com really makes you wonder about some people.

Cheers,

Clair