Working with horsehide (holster) ?

[Wizzard]

Hello, just curious how much more difficult it is to work with horsehide as opposed to cowhide when making a holster? Any good sources for horsehide online?

Many thanks

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Horsehide is stiffer and tighter grained than cow hide. There are several folks out there that believe those qualities make it a better material for making holsters. In my estimation a large percentage of those beliefs are a direct result of clever marketing from a few makers. In my experience, horsehide holsters are quicker to dry or crack, and most manufacturing processes don't get the kind of contact against the pistol that you will get with good cowhide, resulting in a poorer fit. The tighter grained horsehide will also not absorb acrylic as readily as cowhide will. That is a big detriment [in my opinion] as well.

I have used both materials and I have carried in holsters made from both materials. I used to prefer horsehide when I got started. Now that I have more experience, I prefer quality cow hide hands down.

Having said all that, if you would still like to give it a try for yourself, you can prep the surface with alcohol to help it absorb. You can also use a little dawn dish soap in your water to break the surface tension (which helps it absorb better as well).

[StevenSiegel]

Horsehide is stiffer and tighter grained than cow hide. There are several folks out there that believe those qualities make it a better material for making holsters. In my estimation a large percentage of those beliefs are a direct result of clever marketing from a few makers. In my experience, horsehide holsters are quicker to dry or crack, and most manufacturing processes don't get the kind of contact against the pistol that you will get with good cowhide, resulting in a poorer fit. The tighter grained horsehide will also not absorb acrylic as readily as cowhide will. That is a big detriment [in my opinion] as well.

I have used both materials and I have carried in holsters made from both materials. I used to prefer horsehide when I got started. Now that I have more experience, I prefer quality cow hide hands down.

Having said all that, if you would still like to give it a try for yourself, you can prep the surface with alcohol to help it absorb. You can also use a little dawn dish soap in your water to break the surface tension (which helps it absorb better as well).

I respectfully disagree. I have carried holsters made from both materials. There is no comparison in the longevity of one over the other. We have sold vegetable tanned horsehide for over 40 years. My uncle, Jacob Siegel, trained 100's of craftsmen in its use. The fibers of horse are completely different from cow. It will have superior stand-up. Whichever material you choose to use is up to you. (I wish there was a school to teach this type of stuff in the States and people did not have to rely on vendors, myself included, for information on materials not so much that I am concerned about competitiion, it is just that I am concerned that people are making informed decisions.) I hope that this is not too harsh... my email skills are not the greatest. I only write this to be helpful. Very important: DO NOT USE (ANY SIGNIFICANT QTY OF) ALCOHOL ON LEATHER. YOU WILL RUIN IT AS IT WILL EXTRACT FATS FROM THE LEATHER WHICH HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE LEATHER TO PRESERVE IT. Another suggestion for vegetable tanned leather would be a 3-5% solution of borax for preparation.

[mugwump]

I respectfully disagree. I have carried holsters made from both materials. There is no comparison in the longevity of one over the other. We have sold vegetable tanned horsehide for over 40 years. My uncle, Jacob Siegel, trained 100's of craftsmen in its use. The fibers of horse are completely different from cow. It will have superior stand-up. Whichever material you choose to use is up to you. (I wish there was a school to teach this type of stuff in the States and people did not have to rely on vendors, myself included, for information on materials not so much that I am concerned about competitiion, it is just that I am concerned that people are making informed decisions.) I hope that this is not too harsh... my email skills are not the greatest. I only write this to be helpful. Very important: DO NOT USE (ANY SIGNIFICANT QTY OF) ALCOHOL ON LEATHER. YOU WILL RUIN IT AS IT WILL EXTRACT FATS FROM THE LEATHER WHICH HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE LEATHER TO PRESERVE IT. Another suggestion for vegetable tanned leather would be a 3-5% solution of borax for preparation.

on the subject of using 'stuff' to aid in the transfer of dyes/oils/etc... how do you feel about using vinergaroon (vinegar black), the baking soda bath, and following rinses... and reconditioning? what would be your prefered method of neutralizing the vinegar(acid) and replaceing the 'oils' that leeched out during the process?

eric

p.s. it's great seeing and having you here on this board. take care...

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

I respectfully disagree. I have carried holsters made from both materials. There is no comparison in the longevity of one over the other. We have sold vegetable tanned horsehide for over 40 years. My uncle, Jacob Siegel, trained 100's of craftsmen in its use. The fibers of horse are completely different from cow. It will have superior stand-up. Whichever material you choose to use is up to you. (I wish there was a school to teach this type of stuff in the States and people did not have to rely on vendors, myself included, for information on materials not so much that I am concerned about competitiion, it is just that I am concerned that people are making informed decisions.) I hope that this is not too harsh... my email skills are not the greatest. I only write this to be helpful. Very important: DO NOT USE (ANY SIGNIFICANT QTY OF) ALCOHOL ON LEATHER. YOU WILL RUIN IT AS IT WILL EXTRACT FATS FROM THE LEATHER WHICH HAVE BEEN PUT INTO THE LEATHER TO PRESERVE IT. Another suggestion for vegetable tanned leather would be a 3-5% solution of borax for preparation.

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on these matters. While Alcohol does remove materials that condition leather, so does pretty much every molding process (my understanding is that this is how a holster retains its stiffness after shaping). I also have to ask if you think using alcohol based dyes are bad for leather as well.

As far as materials and a comparison of longevity, I think that is relative to how the holsters are used, and the standards that one holds to a holster to consider it passable for duty or carry usage. When I hear claims of "I've used my holster for 20 years and it's just as good as the day I got it", it turns my stomach. Under a harsh training schedule, no material - horse or cowhide (or for that matter kydex or injection molded plastics) will last too long. If a holster is "just as good" after twenty years of use, it isn't really being used or it was never that good in the first place.

I have a friend that started training and practicing hand gun basics with my training group less than a year ago. Last week he told me he was amazed how quickly his horse hide holster wore out once he started using it in our classes. I told him nothing will really hold up too long to that kind of abuse. With that in mind, I find good quality cow hid to be superior in fit and performance vs. the longevity of its service life when compared to horse hide. Others may have differing opinions, but I have to trust my own experience in these matters.

Basically, the bottom line for me is this - I have used horse hide from Siegels, Horween, and several other suppliers. I no longer build holsters with it. I am in no way implying that it is not quality, but rather that for my application there are superior products. If you dig around it is possible to find posts from some of the most respected holster manufacturers on the usage of hosehide that support my opinion on this matter. YMMV

[StevenSiegel]

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on these matters. While Alcohol does remove materials that condition leather, so does pretty much every molding process (my understanding is that this is how a holster retains its stiffness after shaping). I also have to ask if you think using alcohol based dyes are bad for leather as well.

As far as materials and a comparison of longevity, I think that is relative to how the holsters are used, and the standards that one holds to a holster to consider it passable for duty or carry usage. When I hear claims of "I've used my holster for 20 years and it's just as good as the day I got it", it turns my stomach. Under a harsh training schedule, no material - horse or cowhide (or for that matter kydex or injection molded plastics) will last too long. If a holster is "just as good" after twenty years of use, it isn't really being used or it was never that good in the first place.

I have a friend that started training and practicing hand gun basics with my training group less than a year ago. Last week he told me he was amazed how quickly his horse hide holster wore out once he started using it in our classes. I told him nothing will really hold up too long to that kind of abuse. With that in mind, I find good quality cow hid to be superior in fit and performance vs. the longevity of its service life when compared to horse hide. Others may have differing opinions, but I have to trust my own experience in these matters.

Basically, the bottom line for me is this - I have used horse hide from Siegels, Horween, and several other suppliers. I no longer build holsters with it. I am in no way implying that it is not quality, but rather that for my application there are superior products. If you dig around it is possible to find posts from some of the most respected holster manufacturers on the usage of hosehide that support my opinion on this matter. YMMV

This is interesting. Perhaps we are talking about different characteristics when comparing horse to cowhide.

When I speak about vegetable tanned horse being superior to vegetable tanned cowhide (no matter what vegetable tanning agents are used), the differences are the following:

horse will stand more flexing than cowhide before the fibers start to loosen (this means a difference in retention of shape)

horse has superior abrasion resistance to cowhide

Perhaps there are different characteristics that you are referring to so we are respecfully disagreeing about different issues.

If someone can tell me how to send a picture of a 20 year old horsehide holster, I'll post it along side a cowhide holster made for a different pistol but in the same time frame. The horsehide holster was made for a handgun produced for only a few years in the early 80's. It is similar to a CZ75, but was constructed to handle 41AE ammo, re-chambered for 40 S&W cartridges...the cowhide holster was made for a Ruger Single Six. We live on a ranch and need to carry "something" . They are abused and exposed to the elements, dust, brush, etc, etc

When we started selling vegetable tanned horsehide almost 50 years ago, we sold it for belts almost exclusively. What we noticed was that over time a belt made from vegetable tanned horsehide would not sag where the belt contacts the back, where cowhide would, no matter where it was tanned.

As far as the question about the alcohol; I took your remarks to mean that one would "swipe" the grain with alcohol. As far as alcohol based dyes damaging leather, could I ask you to just think about the "precautions" that need to be taken to prevent leather from cracking when trying to dye a strap BLACK that is going to be flexed?

Anyway, I hope that I have expressed myself as to educate and share information. And, I love these kinds of discussions and questions. So, if you still disagree, I'm happy to continue the discussion.

Best Regards,

Steve

ps ... regarding leather losing oils when it is formed with water.... If my jeans (not made from leather, though I did make a pair for myself about 40 years ago) are washed in the washing machine and hung dry they are stiff. When they are flexed, they soften. ... Comments????

Edited September 6, 2010 by StevenSiegel

[StevenSiegel]

on the subject of using 'stuff' to aid in the transfer of dyes/oils/etc... how do you feel about using vinergaroon (vinegar black), the baking soda bath, and following rinses... and reconditioning? what would be your prefered method of neutralizing the vinegar(acid) and replaceing the 'oils' that leeched out during the process?

eric

p.s. it's great seeing and having you here on this board. take care...

I will post a response within the next couple of days. I do not know a chemical by the name of vinergaroon. I would like to research this and give you the best answer for which I am capable.

Best Regards,

Steve

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

I am referring directly to the usage of horsehide in regards to modern concealed carry holsters that will undergo heavy usage.

I completely agree that horsehide will remain flexible for a longer period than cowhide if it is conditioned properly. I would also agree that it will remain more flexible in an un-altered state (that having been said, after pressing and boning horsehide, I have had it crack on many occasions, and I stand by my earlier statement that I get less overall contact with the pistol when using horsehide). I also agree that it is more abrasion resistant (although that is purely cosmetic). Due to those qualities I prefer horsehide for making belts, however, I have not had much luck obtaining samples of a uniform thickness that are long enough to make belts with, so I rarely use them anymore.

Concerning the old holsters, I will maintain that "wear" is relative to the original design, the usage of the holster and the owners requirements for it. Some holsters, like the Roy Baker style pancake holsters, will appear to last a very long time, but they never really had any rigidity or retention to speak of in the first place. Any holster that lasts longer than five years is not being used very hard, in my experience (in fact, I've never had a holster that I couldn't personally wear out in less than two years - mine or any other maker's). There are other holster makers who could back me up on this, but most won't admit it openly (probably because they are afraid it will hurt the perceived value of their products).

Concerning the precautions that I take for prepping a black strap that will be flexed - I don't use alcohol for that. I dip dye the strap, and flex it enough that the pores open up and absorb the dye. After drying, I buff the strap with a horsehair brush or a buffing wheel, before applying Bick 4 leather conditioner (or neatsfoot oil, lexol, etc., depending on preferences).

Concerning jeans, that is not an apples to apples comparison. There might be all kinds of reasons your jeans are stiff after going through the wash. I don't consider it relevant to what we are discussing so I wouldn't worry too much about it in any case.

I really do appreciate the civility with which you have approached this topic, but I am afraid we will just have to agree to disagree where the usage of horsehide for making holsters is concerned. I have given a summary or my experiences, shared my conclusions and attempted to explain the conditions which led to my concIusions. I don't have a vested interest in this matter, and I don't see what there is to gain from continuing further with the current discussion (beyond accidentally offending someone or causing sore feelings), so I will be respectfully withdrawing from further participation from this thread.

[katsass]

I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion on these matters. While Alcohol does remove materials that condition leather, so does pretty much every molding process (my understanding is that this is how a holster retains its stiffness after shaping). I also have to ask if you think using alcohol based dyes are bad for leather as well.

As far as materials and a comparison of longevity, I think that is relative to how the holsters are used, and the standards that one holds to a holster to consider it passable for duty or carry usage. When I hear claims of "I've used my holster for 20 years and it's just as good as the day I got it", it turns my stomach. Under a harsh training schedule, no material - horse or cowhide (or for that matter kydex or injection molded plastics) will last too long. If a holster is "just as good" after twenty years of use, it isn't really being used or it was never that good in the first place.

I have a friend that started training and practicing hand gun basics with my training group less than a year ago. Last week he told me he was amazed how quickly his horse hide holster wore out once he started using it in our classes. I told him nothing will really hold up too long to that kind of abuse. With that in mind, I find good quality cow hid to be superior in fit and performance vs. the longevity of its service life when compared to horse hide. Others may have differing opinions, but I have to trust my own experience in these matters.

Basically, the bottom line for me is this - I have used horse hide from Siegels, Horween, and several other suppliers. I no longer build holsters with it. I am in no way implying that it is not quality, but rather that for my application there are superior products. If you dig around it is possible to find posts from some of the most respected holster manufacturers on the usage of hosehide that support my opinion on this matter. YMMV

+1 Thanks Boomstick, I agree on all counts. Mike

[StevenSiegel]

I am referring directly to the usage of horsehide in regards to modern concealed carry holsters that will undergo heavy usage.

I completely agree that horsehide will remain flexible for a longer period than cowhide if it is conditioned properly. I would also agree that it will remain more flexible in an un-altered state (that having been said, after pressing and boning horsehide, I have had it crack on many occasions, and I stand by my earlier statement that I get less overall contact with the pistol when using horsehide). I also agree that it is more abrasion resistant (although that is purely cosmetic). Due to those qualities I prefer horsehide for making belts, however, I have not had much luck obtaining samples of a uniform thickness that are long enough to make belts with, so I rarely use them anymore.

Concerning the old holsters, I will maintain that "wear" is relative to the original design, the usage of the holster and the owners requirements for it. Some holsters, like the Roy Baker style pancake holsters, will appear to last a very long time, but they never really had any rigidity or retention to speak of in the first place. Any holster that lasts longer than five years is not being used very hard, in my experience (in fact, I've never had a holster that I couldn't personally wear out in less than two years - mine or any other maker's). There are other holster makers who could back me up on this, but most won't admit it openly (probably because they are afraid it will hurt the perceived value of their products).

Concerning the precautions that I take for prepping a black strap that will be flexed - I don't use alcohol for that. I dip dye the strap, and flex it enough that the pores open up and absorb the dye. After drying, I buff the strap with a horsehair brush or a buffing wheel, before applying Bick 4 leather conditioner (or neatsfoot oil, lexol, etc., depending on preferences).

Concerning jeans, that is not an apples to apples comparison. There might be all kinds of reasons your jeans are stiff after going through the wash. I don't consider it relevant to what we are discussing so I wouldn't worry too much about it in any case.

I really do appreciate the civility with which you have approached this topic, but I am afraid we will just have to agree to disagree where the usage of horsehide for making holsters is concerned. I have given a summary or my experiences, shared my conclusions and attempted to explain the conditions which led to my concIusions. I don't have a vested interest in this matter, and I don't see what there is to gain from continuing further with the current discussion (beyond accidentally offending someone or causing sore feelings), so I will be respectfully withdrawing from further participation from this thread.

Hi,

I also appreciate the civility of the differences of opinion. I think that both of our intentions are to be informative.

Best Regards,

Steven Siegel

[Denster]

Steven. Vinegaroon is ferric acetate made by dissolving iron (most commonly steel wool) in vinegar. This reacts with the tannins in leather turning it black, a very deep black when treated with neetsfoot oil. Since it is not a dye and the color is "in" the leather it does not bleed.

A comment on stiffening veg tanned leather after forming. This does not occur from the moisture removing anything from the leather but from the moisture releasing collagens from the leather it is much more pronounced when heat is applied between 120 and 130 degrees for around a half an hour right after the forming and is significant with either veg tanned horse or cow. Think liquid hide glue here which is actually a product of the collagens. The fibers are essentially glued into place to hold the molding.

I find that either horse or cow makes a fine holster. I like the soft jacked horse that I buy from Steven for holsters as it more readily absorbes moisture and takes molding better although as Jeff said not as well as cowhide with the detail molding he is noted for. The final product, after heat drying, is just as firm as using hard jacked just with better detail and it takes finish better. Longevity wise I don't know that there is a whole lot of difference and the final determiner is how hard it is used.

[spanky]

Having made several thousand IWB holsters myself I can say from my own experience that "Hard Rolled" horsehide makes a better holster in "my" opinion than cowhide. I have had "dyed" holsters made from "Soft Rolled" horsehide crack right after drying. I've found that using the hard rolled with Fiebings oil dye stops the cracking. I've only been making holsters for about 10 years but in that time none of my customers have said anything to me about cracking. Horsehide is the most requested material by my customers. The hard rolled is much harder to mold than cowhide but my customers are always willing to pay more for my holsters when I do make them from horsehide..

It's not always possible for me to get the thickness and quality that I want so I seldom use it anymore. Mostly I now use Hermann Oak strap sides.

I just ordered some hard rolled from Zack's to check it out. Never dealt with them before so I'll see how that works out....

Edited September 7, 2010 by spanky

[Denster]

Having made several thousand IWB holsters myself I can say from my own experience that "Hard Rolled" horsehide makes a better holster in "my" opinion than cowhide. I have had "dyed" holsters made from "Soft Rolled" horsehide crack right after drying. I've found that useing the hard rolled with Fiebings oil dye stops the cracking. I've only been making holster for about 10 years but in that time non of my customers have said anything to me about cracking. Horsehide is the most requested material by my customers. The hard rolled is much harder to mold than cowhide but my customes are always willing to pay more for my holsters when I do make them from horsehide..

It's not always possible for my to get the thickness and quality that I want so I seldom use it anymore. Mostly I now use Hermann Oak strap sides.

I just ordered some hard rolled from Zack's to check it out. Never dealt with them before so I'll see how that works out....

That's interesting. I've not had any problems with either hard or soft jacked cracking. I do prefer the soft jacked for me at least it works easier and the finished product looks nicer. That said I wouldn't hesitate to use hard jacked if it were all that was available and the customer wanted horsehide. Propably more of a situation of preference and working tecnique than anything I suppose.

[spanky]

That's interesting. I've not had any problems with either hard or soft jacked cracking. I do prefer the soft jacked for me at least it works easier and the finished product looks nicer. That said I wouldn't hesitate to use hard jacked if it were all that was available and the customer wanted horsehide. Propably more of a situation of preference and working tecnique than anything I suppose.

It could have been the particular batch of soft rolled that I had. But I do remember throwing about 7 or 8 butts away and switching to hard rolled. I had made 5 holsters that day (maybe 6 or 7 years ago) and all of them cracked. At the time I only new of one place to get the stuff. The stuff that Zack's has is a little thinner according to the site. so may be easier to mold.