Inspiration, Copying, Giving Credit?

[JohnBarton]

My question is what is your take on it when you see someone uses something on their work that you invented but they don't give you credit? And by invented I mean a true invention of something that no one has ever done before anywhere, not something simple like putting three rivets instead of two.

Then the next question is what is a copy vs. an inspired piece?

DISCLAIMER: I have had a few run ins with Jack Justis, whom I idolized at one point in my life, on another board over this but this is NOT the impetus for this post. I always give credit to others when I make a case that uses some of their elements. Jack has accused me of copying him on one line of cases we do. I have defended myself adequately and pointed out that Jack himself borrowed liberally from the prevailing cue case maker at the time he started. I think we have settled this for now but I wanted to mention it just in case the people whom I have invited to come here and browse LW to learn what REALLY GOOD leather crafting and decorating is think that this is the reason for the thread.

The reason for the thread is that another case maker has borrowed some of my elements that I invented. I invented a way to integrate the D-Ring holders for the strap and handle on the case into the laced seam in a secure and stylish way that had never been done before on cue cases or any other cases that I have seen. I spent about three days working this out so that the lacing can snug up on the part and the part can't move and loosen up the lacing. I probably did about 20 different versions before I got it just right.

Another cue case maker has taken this technique and look practically verbatim. Now, I don't mind that, it's flattering to me. What I do mind is the possibility that someone checks out his work before mine, sees this really cool way to do this part of the case and draws the conclusion that I copied him. I feel that he should give me credit for the elements he lifted from our cases that are not common among cue cases.

I have written to him to ask him to give me credit as I would do the same for him should I take anything that he created. I should mention that whenever I do take something from another case maker, in addition to giving credit, I try to put my own spin on it and make it "better" if I can. Obviously "better" is often subjective but I do my best to add a little JB spice to the recipe.

So what are your thoughts on this subject?

[tattoosbyjay]

i think your right , dont get mewrong jack makes a great case but flowers and swift as far as i know especially flowers were doing the same basic stylecase he does but everyone seems to think jack invented it, everytime i see a new case maker its well it look like a justis to me and blah blah blah i say who cares as long as the case is made well then why make such a big fuss and give credit where credit is due for sure

[JohnBarton]

i think your right , dont get mewrong jack makes a great case but flowers and swift as far as i know especially flowers were doing the same basic stylecase he does but everyone seems to think jack invented it, everytime i see a new case maker its well it look like a justis to me and blah blah blah i say who cares as long as the case is made well then why make such a big fuss and give credit where credit is due for sure

Jay, please, this really isn't about me and Jack.

It's about how people about whether credit should be given when someone takes things from others and if so where the line is. For me it's not a money thing, nor is it a competitive thing, it's a courtesy thing to acknowledge those that help you by innovating and giving you a better platform to start from.

[tattoosbyjay]

Jay, please, this really isn't about me and Jack.

It's about how people about whether credit should be given when someone takes things from others and if so where the line is. For me it's not a money thing, nor is it a competitive thing, it's a courtesy thing to acknowledge those that help you by innovating and giving you a better platform to start from.

i understand that i wasnt trying to make it about you and him i was just venting lol, but i know what you are saying and i agree

[tattoosbyjay]

the way i see it flowers swift you and jack are all inspirations for case makers today

[bruce johnson]

the way i see it flowers swift you and jack are all inspirations for case makers today

Truer words have not been said for a while. I know zippo about cue cases, but if you inserted names of holster makers, saddlemakers or whatever and referred to them, it would be universal no matter what our baliwick is. The cue case making deal looks like a pretty tight market, and coming up with something innovative is no doubt going to be copied. With the apparently limited number of makers, appropriate credit is a bigger deal for customers in a smaller market. In a bigger niche it is more common to hear "Who taught you to do that?" from another maker than from a customer. Pretty much every maker I have been around has been very helpful with sharing and most all of them pass on who they learned it from.

[pete]

I too know nothing about cue cases, but I do know something about leather, leather products, and hand made items.

If I didn't know you from Jack Justis and I wanted to purchase a case and was going to spend some serious coinage on one, I really wouldn't care if I liked the idea, innovative or not.

Who cares who developed it really. If there was a copyright infringement case that's another thing. Otherwise it's an ego thing pure and simple. If you make a better or more attractive product than him then those who appreciate it will come to you and spread your name and visa versa.

Just focus on what you do and make it the best that you can "and they will come"

If I came to your shop and loved your case and idea, I'de be really turned off if I was about to pay you and you felt the need to tell me that the d- ring/lace idea was your idea and that someone out there is copying it and that it bothered you. I as a customer, don't need to know or want to know any "intra-industry" stuff. Id'e have a different feeling about you from that moment.

Great work as always--- be flattered that someone "stole" your design

respectfully

pete

[JohnBarton]

I too know nothing about cue cases, but I do know something about leather, leather products, and hand made items.

If I didn't know you from Jack Justis and I wanted to purchase a case and was going to spend some serious coinage on one, I really wouldn't care if I liked the idea, innovative or not.

Who cares who developed it really. If there was a copyright infringement case that's another thing. Otherwise it's an ego thing pure and simple. If you make a better or more attractive product than him then those who appreciate it will come to you and spread your name and visa versa.

Just focus on what you do and make it the best that you can "and they will come"

If I came to your shop and loved your case and idea, I'de be really turned off if I was about to pay you and you felt the need to tell me that the d- ring/lace idea was your idea and that someone out there is copying it and that it bothered you. I as a customer, don't need to know or want to know any "intra-industry" stuff. Id'e have a different feeling about you from that moment.

Great work as always--- be flattered that someone "stole" your design

respectfully

pete

I get what you are saying and I certainly don't go out of my way to point out what other case makers have taken from me with very very few exceptions. If I did that then it would be a long list. :-)

I am flattered when someone one thinks enough of my design to copy me. I am equally shattered when someone else thinks that I copied the person who copied me.

An example: In the past I owned a company called Instroke Cue Cases. The scallop design was 100% new and unique to the world of pool cue cases. Within a few years it was being copied by several companies. I would have people come up to my booth and tell I had a lot of nerve to copy "their" brand of case. Their brand being the knockoff of my design that they were carrying and didn't know any better. Of course those few times that it did happen like that gave me the opening to explain that I was first and then go on about the differences. Now this was more of a corporate ripoff type deal that happens all the time, not much one can do about it as designs on utilitarian products are nearly impossible to protect. What I always wondered about was how many more people thought that we ripped off the knockoffs instead of the other way around.

Now fast forward till now and I am now making pretty much all one-of-a-kind cases and am in the company of other case makers who also do custom cases. There are only about ten or so of us that are pretty active in the world. The rest are hobbyists, but some real good talent.

My thing now is that I spend a lot of time thinking up new ways to do these cases. Almost every case has some new thing on it. I know that some people are going to take some of the things I do. Hell I take from them too when I see something that I like. But the difference is that I give credit to them when I do it and they don't give credit to me when they do it.

Yeah my ego plays into it here because some of these things are great moves forward in cue case making and I know I won't see any money coming from these ideas other then from the sales of my own cases using these ideas. But I would be happy to get some credit from my peers for helping them out by providing them with new techniques.

Am I being unreasonable to want that?

In cue making there is a guy named Thomas Wayne who has pioneered a lot of new techniques. He is rarely flattered when people take his ideas. He is usually pissed that they take his ideas and then don't execute them properly. Which is another concern of mine.

So is the answer that perhaps I should just mention it on the case's display page that I invented such and such technique on the day that I first show it to the world and leave it at that and really not get pissy about someone taking my idea and not giving credit? I feel like I should document that I was first just for the record if nothing else. Good approach or not.

P.S. if you are about to hand me money then the last thing you will hear from me is anything remotely negative. :-) THAT much I know.

[dirtclod]

Have i ever borrowed a style or way of doing something ? I sure have. But i tell customers or who ever that and so and so came up with that ideal or a customer asked if it could be made this way. I have no problem giving the other person credit because they came up with ideal to start with.

To me it's just looking at the way another person has their shop set up. I take the ideals that i think will work for me or change them to where they will work for me. Nobody is smart enough to think of ever thing because ever body see's the world in a different way. A few times when i was stumped on to do something or how to make my ideal work i ask a person that doesn't do this kind of work how they would do it. The reason being is they don't know it can't be done the way they say. But alot of the time you can take their ideal combine it with yours and make it work.

Bottom line is give credit where credit is due to the person that came up with the ideal in the first place.

[MADMAX22]

I think its a big deal to make sure you give credit, or atleast try to as often as possible.

I have learned everything I know about leather work from LW, books, and trial and error. When I started getting into rifle slings and inlays I think Dave (DCknives) was without a doubt the biggest help I had. Ive used a couple of his ideas and asked him to do so and if anyone ask I am very quick to point that out.

There are several that have helped me work on my motorcycle seat as well.

I think its a respect thing, granted most of all leather work has been done in the past at one point in time but its nice to mention that someone has helped you out in your design.