Inspiration, Copying, Giving Credit?

[JohnBarton]

My question is what is your take on it when you see someone uses something on their work that you invented but they don't give you credit? And by invented I mean a true invention of something that no one has ever done before anywhere, not something simple like putting three rivets instead of two.

Then the next question is what is a copy vs. an inspired piece?

DISCLAIMER: I have had a few run ins with Jack Justis, whom I idolized at one point in my life, on another board over this but this is NOT the impetus for this post. I always give credit to others when I make a case that uses some of their elements. Jack has accused me of copying him on one line of cases we do. I have defended myself adequately and pointed out that Jack himself borrowed liberally from the prevailing cue case maker at the time he started. I think we have settled this for now but I wanted to mention it just in case the people whom I have invited to come here and browse LW to learn what REALLY GOOD leather crafting and decorating is think that this is the reason for the thread.

The reason for the thread is that another case maker has borrowed some of my elements that I invented. I invented a way to integrate the D-Ring holders for the strap and handle on the case into the laced seam in a secure and stylish way that had never been done before on cue cases or any other cases that I have seen. I spent about three days working this out so that the lacing can snug up on the part and the part can't move and loosen up the lacing. I probably did about 20 different versions before I got it just right.

Another cue case maker has taken this technique and look practically verbatim. Now, I don't mind that, it's flattering to me. What I do mind is the possibility that someone checks out his work before mine, sees this really cool way to do this part of the case and draws the conclusion that I copied him. I feel that he should give me credit for the elements he lifted from our cases that are not common among cue cases.

I have written to him to ask him to give me credit as I would do the same for him should I take anything that he created. I should mention that whenever I do take something from another case maker, in addition to giving credit, I try to put my own spin on it and make it "better" if I can. Obviously "better" is often subjective but I do my best to add a little JB spice to the recipe.

So what are your thoughts on this subject?

[tattoosbyjay]

i think your right , dont get mewrong jack makes a great case but flowers and swift as far as i know especially flowers were doing the same basic stylecase he does but everyone seems to think jack invented it, everytime i see a new case maker its well it look like a justis to me and blah blah blah i say who cares as long as the case is made well then why make such a big fuss and give credit where credit is due for sure

[JohnBarton]

i think your right , dont get mewrong jack makes a great case but flowers and swift as far as i know especially flowers were doing the same basic stylecase he does but everyone seems to think jack invented it, everytime i see a new case maker its well it look like a justis to me and blah blah blah i say who cares as long as the case is made well then why make such a big fuss and give credit where credit is due for sure

Jay, please, this really isn't about me and Jack.

It's about how people about whether credit should be given when someone takes things from others and if so where the line is. For me it's not a money thing, nor is it a competitive thing, it's a courtesy thing to acknowledge those that help you by innovating and giving you a better platform to start from.

[tattoosbyjay]

Jay, please, this really isn't about me and Jack.

It's about how people about whether credit should be given when someone takes things from others and if so where the line is. For me it's not a money thing, nor is it a competitive thing, it's a courtesy thing to acknowledge those that help you by innovating and giving you a better platform to start from.

i understand that i wasnt trying to make it about you and him i was just venting lol, but i know what you are saying and i agree

[tattoosbyjay]

the way i see it flowers swift you and jack are all inspirations for case makers today

[bruce johnson]

the way i see it flowers swift you and jack are all inspirations for case makers today

Truer words have not been said for a while. I know zippo about cue cases, but if you inserted names of holster makers, saddlemakers or whatever and referred to them, it would be universal no matter what our baliwick is. The cue case making deal looks like a pretty tight market, and coming up with something innovative is no doubt going to be copied. With the apparently limited number of makers, appropriate credit is a bigger deal for customers in a smaller market. In a bigger niche it is more common to hear "Who taught you to do that?" from another maker than from a customer. Pretty much every maker I have been around has been very helpful with sharing and most all of them pass on who they learned it from.

[pete]

I too know nothing about cue cases, but I do know something about leather, leather products, and hand made items.

If I didn't know you from Jack Justis and I wanted to purchase a case and was going to spend some serious coinage on one, I really wouldn't care if I liked the idea, innovative or not.

Who cares who developed it really. If there was a copyright infringement case that's another thing. Otherwise it's an ego thing pure and simple. If you make a better or more attractive product than him then those who appreciate it will come to you and spread your name and visa versa.

Just focus on what you do and make it the best that you can "and they will come"

If I came to your shop and loved your case and idea, I'de be really turned off if I was about to pay you and you felt the need to tell me that the d- ring/lace idea was your idea and that someone out there is copying it and that it bothered you. I as a customer, don't need to know or want to know any "intra-industry" stuff. Id'e have a different feeling about you from that moment.

Great work as always--- be flattered that someone "stole" your design

respectfully

pete

[JohnBarton]

I too know nothing about cue cases, but I do know something about leather, leather products, and hand made items.

If I didn't know you from Jack Justis and I wanted to purchase a case and was going to spend some serious coinage on one, I really wouldn't care if I liked the idea, innovative or not.

Who cares who developed it really. If there was a copyright infringement case that's another thing. Otherwise it's an ego thing pure and simple. If you make a better or more attractive product than him then those who appreciate it will come to you and spread your name and visa versa.

Just focus on what you do and make it the best that you can "and they will come"

If I came to your shop and loved your case and idea, I'de be really turned off if I was about to pay you and you felt the need to tell me that the d- ring/lace idea was your idea and that someone out there is copying it and that it bothered you. I as a customer, don't need to know or want to know any "intra-industry" stuff. Id'e have a different feeling about you from that moment.

Great work as always--- be flattered that someone "stole" your design

respectfully

pete

I get what you are saying and I certainly don't go out of my way to point out what other case makers have taken from me with very very few exceptions. If I did that then it would be a long list. :-)

I am flattered when someone one thinks enough of my design to copy me. I am equally shattered when someone else thinks that I copied the person who copied me.

An example: In the past I owned a company called Instroke Cue Cases. The scallop design was 100% new and unique to the world of pool cue cases. Within a few years it was being copied by several companies. I would have people come up to my booth and tell I had a lot of nerve to copy "their" brand of case. Their brand being the knockoff of my design that they were carrying and didn't know any better. Of course those few times that it did happen like that gave me the opening to explain that I was first and then go on about the differences. Now this was more of a corporate ripoff type deal that happens all the time, not much one can do about it as designs on utilitarian products are nearly impossible to protect. What I always wondered about was how many more people thought that we ripped off the knockoffs instead of the other way around.

Now fast forward till now and I am now making pretty much all one-of-a-kind cases and am in the company of other case makers who also do custom cases. There are only about ten or so of us that are pretty active in the world. The rest are hobbyists, but some real good talent.

My thing now is that I spend a lot of time thinking up new ways to do these cases. Almost every case has some new thing on it. I know that some people are going to take some of the things I do. Hell I take from them too when I see something that I like. But the difference is that I give credit to them when I do it and they don't give credit to me when they do it.

Yeah my ego plays into it here because some of these things are great moves forward in cue case making and I know I won't see any money coming from these ideas other then from the sales of my own cases using these ideas. But I would be happy to get some credit from my peers for helping them out by providing them with new techniques.

Am I being unreasonable to want that?

In cue making there is a guy named Thomas Wayne who has pioneered a lot of new techniques. He is rarely flattered when people take his ideas. He is usually pissed that they take his ideas and then don't execute them properly. Which is another concern of mine.

So is the answer that perhaps I should just mention it on the case's display page that I invented such and such technique on the day that I first show it to the world and leave it at that and really not get pissy about someone taking my idea and not giving credit? I feel like I should document that I was first just for the record if nothing else. Good approach or not.

P.S. if you are about to hand me money then the last thing you will hear from me is anything remotely negative. :-) THAT much I know.

[dirtclod]

Have i ever borrowed a style or way of doing something ? I sure have. But i tell customers or who ever that and so and so came up with that ideal or a customer asked if it could be made this way. I have no problem giving the other person credit because they came up with ideal to start with.

To me it's just looking at the way another person has their shop set up. I take the ideals that i think will work for me or change them to where they will work for me. Nobody is smart enough to think of ever thing because ever body see's the world in a different way. A few times when i was stumped on to do something or how to make my ideal work i ask a person that doesn't do this kind of work how they would do it. The reason being is they don't know it can't be done the way they say. But alot of the time you can take their ideal combine it with yours and make it work.

Bottom line is give credit where credit is due to the person that came up with the ideal in the first place.

[MADMAX22]

I think its a big deal to make sure you give credit, or atleast try to as often as possible.

I have learned everything I know about leather work from LW, books, and trial and error. When I started getting into rifle slings and inlays I think Dave (DCknives) was without a doubt the biggest help I had. Ive used a couple of his ideas and asked him to do so and if anyone ask I am very quick to point that out.

There are several that have helped me work on my motorcycle seat as well.

I think its a respect thing, granted most of all leather work has been done in the past at one point in time but its nice to mention that someone has helped you out in your design.

[UKRay]

John, I'd love to think that I had invented something that other folk copied. Sadly it is unlikely to happen... but if it did, I'd spend a while creating an amazing website that left it in no doubt who did the development work and the initial build. I'd then post that website on every board in my business area leaving it for the people to find out the truth for themselves. Folks are not silly. They know BS when they hear it.

I'd make sure that I gave my invention a fancy name - the 'JB Cross Over Dee System' - or some such nonsense. I'd then make sure that my fancy name was the only one used in my industry by spending time on the forums talking about it and making sure folk knew who had done the hard work and who was being generous enough to share their intellectual property.

I sure as hell wouldn't be asking questions about the rights and wrongs of copying something. We all know what is right and what is wrong - some folk simply ignore the voice in their heads and do it anyway. You can't legislate against people like that.

Reference: Inspired piece - that is easy too. If the idea has been taken and changed then that is an inspired piece. Anything else is a copy. Sadly, IMHO, there is very little you can do about copies other than take the steps above. Whatever you do, don't get mad about it as that is very unlikely to help the situation... and, bless 'em, people are inclined to laugh when you lose it! LOL

Ray

[Jordan]

Always give credit where it is deserved because it is the right thing to do, but that is also easy to overlook for some, if their motives are less than honourable. And always document or otherwise make it known that you have done something brand new, as long as you are sure it has never been done before. Knock off's are the bain of any product made, leather or otherwise. Not a whole lot to be done about it as the lazy will always find the easy way to profit. Just my opinion on the matter. BTW, You do excellent work and buyers will notice the difference.

[Spence]

IMHO, Everyone is right in their way of thinking, but, and it's a big but, as old as this craft is, is the word "invented" the proper word to be used? Maybe "adapted and improved upon" would be better and if the most recent "adaptor" of this method is known, a reference to them can and should be used - it's just the 'right' thing to do.

In ropework, up until about 60 years ago, there was only one knot named after a person - The Matthew Walker knot. In the past 60 years I've come across 5 or 6 knots named after someone and guess what, I've found a much older reference to the knot. These folks may have adapted and improved upon it and maybe even extended it a bit, but they didn't invent it.

This is not meant to take anything away from an 'Adaptor'. Anyone that can see something and improve upon it is a Master in their own right, as is someone that feels they invented a process in an age old craft. It just may have lacked research and they've adapted and improved upon the original.

[JohnBarton]

IMHO, Everyone is right in their way of thinking, but, and it's a big but, as old as this craft is, is the word "invented" the proper word to be used? Maybe "adapted and improved upon" would be better and if the most recent "adaptor" of this method is known, a reference to them can and should be used - it's just the 'right' thing to do.

In ropework, up until about 60 years ago, there was only one knot named after a person - The Matthew Walker knot. In the past 60 years I've come across 5 or 6 knots named after someone and guess what, I've found a much older reference to the knot. These folks may have adapted and improved upon it and maybe even extended it a bit, but they didn't invent it.

This is not meant to take anything away from an 'Adaptor'. Anyone that can see something and improve upon it is a Master in their own right, as is someone that feels they invented a process in an age old craft. It just may have lacked research and they've adapted and improved upon the original.

I agree with you to an extent. I certainly feel that people are inventing things leather work each day. Don King invented the Sheridan style of tooling and had to make new tools to execute it.

I do study a lot of leather working and study handbags, briefcases, and well just about anything made to carry something so that I can absorb and learn all the possibilities that there are.

Yes the craft of making things with leather is as old as killing animals to eat. And certainly using lace to bind the ends together is just as old.

My thing was that I took the idea of lacing the seam which is not new and the idea of riveting the D-ring holder on, which is also not new, and combined them into a new method that I certainly have never seen before which integrates the lacing through the holders. So I consider it as an invented technique, meaning it's a non-obvious way to do it. I am positive that no one else would do it this way because the stress points of the strap and handles would cause the lacing to loosen unless one was very careful to do it in such a way as to account for that, and in fact I can see from the way the other case maker used my idea that he probably didn't account for it. And the way I chose works perfectly and only came about through the expense of a lot of brainpower and trial and error. It's not rocket science, it's not world changing, and in some ways is a fairly impractical way of achieving the goal of attaching ring holders to a case. But it's something that I made up that's original as far as I know and until I see evidence of anyone else doing it on anything else prior to me then I have to believe I was first.

It's a big deal to be first with something. At least to me it is. Most of us aren't going to get rich off this stuff. Certainly the customer doesn't really care about the minute details like we do. But I think most of us here take a lot of pride in what we create and we are incredibly happy if we can make an improvement on something or if we are lucky invent something that we can bring to show and tell.

I guess what I am saying is that since I am not getting rich here I'd like to at least have some reputation for inventiveness or clever adaptiveness as a sort of intellectual wealth. I love showing off what we do, getting feedback, seeing everyone's work and their ideas, and giving back. I just don't like the feeling that I am a sort of unpaid R&D for the world. But I guess that's the price I pay for the ego-stroking I am looking for when I show off my stuff publicly.

:-) Y'all are cheaper than a shrink - THANKS

[Jordan]

Found this interesting take on copying others work today. If you're concerned about copying another person's design, keep in mind what Maloof said in his book "Sam Maloof, Woodworker" when asked about those who copy his furniture: "This reminds me of an anecdote about Hamada, the Japanese potter. When someone asked Hamada if imitations of his work bothered him, he replied, 'When I'm dead, people will think that all of my bad things were made by the other potter, and they will think that all of his good things were made by me.' "

Edited November 16, 2009 by Jordan

[JRedding]

John , I do understand the frustration of putting in a lot of valuable time to perfect a single idea with the hopes of it remaining original at least for a while, long enough maybe someone notices it came from you, or it can help you make a dollar or two because your product has some originality. After nearly twenty years I've come to the conclusion that most of the little things we add, change, or modify hit the street pretty fast these days. It's a lot different than the environment custom makers enjoyed decades ago, with the internet, people traveling a lot more, and a platoon of hungry competetors out there a single idea has the life span of one scrap of meat amongst sled dogs. A lot of people see something like that and it's not entireley new to lace a connector on instead of sew or rivet it I've done it hundreds of times just not on a cue case because I've never made one. But I've done it on horse gear and especially archery equipment, there's a quiver posted on here that I used the same method on. Having used the method a lot before I might have used it again on on a cue case just because it makes sense and I know how. Without knowing you had put a lot of time into it and considered it a unique idea for a case. Maybe the guy you mentioned gained the idea specifically from you and intentially grabbed onto your coat tails but the reality of it is there's not much you can do about it no matter how he got it, be it intentional or accidental. About ten years ago I worked with a guy who was a large customer of mine and a real good idea man, he had a lot of unique ideas in the horse market, he'd dream something up and I'd make it real and together we'd sell the hell out of it. It worked a long time but the longer we did it the faster his ideas became commonplace. We slowly gained a following of followers who would be kicking out our "new" stuff before the ink hardly dried on our new catolog. I fumed about it for years and the only thing I got for it was tired. It's a fuzzy line in some cases and some it isn't. I've also seen people "claim" an idea that was no more original than air and defend it to the death as their own. I agree with your thinking and felt the same for a long time I just don't beleive that's the world we live in anymore, but I admire your beleifs, we'd all be better off if more people felt the same.

[JohnBarton]

John , I do understand the frustration of putting in a lot of valuable time to perfect a single idea with the hopes of it remaining original at least for a while, long enough maybe someone notices it came from you, or it can help you make a dollar or two because your product has some originality. After nearly twenty years I've come to the conclusion that most of the little things we add, change, or modify hit the street pretty fast these days. It's a lot different than the environment custom makers enjoyed decades ago, with the internet, people traveling a lot more, and a platoon of hungry competetors out there a single idea has the life span of one scrap of meat amongst sled dogs. A lot of people see something like that and it's not entireley new to lace a connector on instead of sew or rivet it I've done it hundreds of times just not on a cue case because I've never made one. But I've done it on horse gear and especially archery equipment, there's a quiver posted on here that I used the same method on. Having used the method a lot before I might have used it again on on a cue case just because it makes sense and I know how. Without knowing you had put a lot of time into it and considered it a unique idea for a case. Maybe the guy you mentioned gained the idea specifically from you and intentially grabbed onto your coat tails but the reality of it is there's not much you can do about it no matter how he got it, be it intentional or accidental. About ten years ago I worked with a guy who was a large customer of mine and a real good idea man, he had a lot of unique ideas in the horse market, he'd dream something up and I'd make it real and together we'd sell the hell out of it. It worked a long time but the longer we did it the faster his ideas became commonplace. We slowly gained a following of followers who would be kicking out our "new" stuff before the ink hardly dried on our new catolog. I fumed about it for years and the only thing I got for it was tired. It's a fuzzy line in some cases and some it isn't. I've also seen people "claim" an idea that was no more original than air and defend it to the death as their own. I agree with your thinking and felt the same for a long time I just don't beleive that's the world we live in anymore, but I admire your beleifs, we'd all be better off if more people felt the same.

Thanks for the response. I am sure that people have laced connectors into goods before. Just not in the exact way I did it with the exact shape. I also didn't do it with the idea that it would be some revolutionary idea. I just was flattered when the other case maker took it and wanted a little credit because it obviously came from me.

I don't know if Peter Main was the first guy to do swivel knife accents on the back of belts. But since he is the first one I came across who did it I gave him credit for the inspiration to do something similar with swivel knife highlights on the inside rim of one of our cases.

I learned long ago when I tried to see if I could protect our designs that it's a fruitless endeavor 99% of the time. You can't copyright an item that has a "use". You can get a design patent which is nearly worthless and costly to defend. If you do get one you can SOMETIMES intimidate some infringers with it but most of the time they know that you can't do anything to them.

I am on both sides of the fence here as well because I do frequently use ideas from others. I have no compunction about taking someone else's good idea and figuring out how to use it. Many times I see people do things that I thought of or sketched out years ago and never got around to doing. I think that most of us who build things have had that happen sometimes. It's inevitable that people hit on the same ideas independently when working in the same field.

I agree wholeheartedly about the whole thing just making you tired. I used to get so down when I went to an event and I would see three or four other vendors with knockoffs of my best designs. It was hard to have people come up and tell me that they could get "the same case for half the price" down the row.

Now, it's not a big deal because almost all of my cases are unique and I am not dependent on dealers or mass production.

I suppose in some way I am providing R&D and templates for the knockoff artists but as you said it comes with the territory these days.

I will leave you with a story that I think you might appreciate more than most here.

Once in 1992 I had a woman come to my office in Germany who represented a billiard supplies trading company in China. I knew her from the trade shows and she was actually visiting one of her clients in the same town and decided to look me up. We had no business together at all other than exchanging cards once.

So she is in my office and we are making small talk and she asked me which of our cases is the best seller. I knew instantly what she was after so I said that the pink and blue vinyl ones were the hottest ones. I said we can't keep them in stock. So the visit concluded and she left.

Fast forward two months and I am at the trade show in the USA and I walk up to her booth and what do I see.......you guessed it a whole row of pink and blue cases prominently displayed.

She is obviously embarrassed but I play it off and ask her how the sales of them are going. She says that they aren't doing so well and that no one has placed any orders.

I said, "oh, I forgot to tell you that these are only popular in Germany. The Americans hate them."

[JRedding]

I love it, what a great story, that's one in the win column for sure. With so many people operating out there today you see and hear it all sooner or later. I seemed to have a knack for finding some little thing that hadn't been used for fifty years and implementing it fairly often. One was an old trick on the cantle binder of a saddle, it wasn't new it just hadn't been done as far as I could find for a very long time, several years after I started using it all the time I stood in Wichita Falls Texas and listened to a guy tell a few gatherers how he'd come up with that and he was such a trendsetter everyone else was just following along because he was so great we all just wanted to be like him. The guy was a much better storyteller than saddlemaker.

[Kustom]

John, I'd love to think that I had invented something that other folk copied. Sadly it is unlikely to happen... but if it did, I'd spend a while creating an amazing website that left it in no doubt who did the development work and the initial build. I'd then post that website on every board in my business area leaving it for the people to find out the truth for themselves. Folks are not silly. They know BS when they hear it.

I'd make sure that I gave my invention a fancy name - the 'JB Cross Over Dee System' - or some such nonsense. I'd then make sure that my fancy name was the only one used in my industry by spending time on the forums talking about it and making sure folk knew who had done the hard work and who was being generous enough to share their intellectual property.

Ray

Ray is so right here. What you're going for is is what we in marketing call "mindshare" http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Mind_share

John on your site you should have a section called "John Barton innovations" that talks about things you created.

If I was in the "pool cue game" I wood write a big glossy coffee table book with lots of great pictures, called something like "Art of the cue case". In the book I would take credit for my innovations and dole out credit to people that deserve it and exclude the copycat "hacks". I would have it published or self publish it. Then go on a book tour. Building a legend is hard work. Study up on "Nudie the rodeo tailor"and "Edward Bohlin, silver saddle maker." to see what I'm talking about.

If you want to get credit for something you have to take credit for it.No one is going to give it to you.

Good luck,

Steve

[8thsinner]

I do know how you feel on this topic.

A few weeks ago I saw one of my designs made by someone else who is on this forum. It was a practical utility design which I have been using and carrying for years.

Now to see someone else making it, And I freely admit his version is nicer and uses better leather is kinda cool it also makes me paranoid that all my stuff is going to get stolen. And some of my designs I do spend like yourself a long long time on, weeks sometimes. So that annoys me a little.

But I can also believe that someone else also came up with this design on their own, and have another person make it. I have no proof that his was done before mine, and when I realise that I have to simply say kudos to the man.

It's my idea but if people like it then they like it. Good for me, a little better for the person who made it for someone else and better for everyone who can share in the delight of using it.

[JohnBarton]

Ray is so right here. What you're going for is is what we in marketing call "mindshare" http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Mind_share

John on your site you should have a section called "John Barton innovations" that talks about things you created.

If I was in the "pool cue game" I wood write a big glossy coffee table book with lots of great pictures, called something like "Art of the cue case". In the book I would take credit for my innovations and dole out credit to people that deserve it and exclude the copycat "hacks". I would have it published or self publish it. Then go on a book tour. Building a legend is hard work. Study up on "Nudie the rodeo tailor"and "Edward Bohlin, silver saddle maker." to see what I'm talking about.

If you want to get credit for something you have to take credit for it.No one is going to give it to you.

Good luck,

Steve

I think that this is a good idea. Too often these things are buried within a product description here and there or inside a discussion. A page highlighting them would do a couple things. One is that it would assign credit to me or our shop for the things that I believe we created first or significantly improved on. Two is that it would give people a place to see what it is I claim and use it as a reference to show me earlier examples or similar examples of the same technique. Three, it's also a place to GIVE credit for the things we took from others and point people in their direction. And four it's a platform to discuss the art of cue case making as a subset of case making in general.

I am not trying to build a legend but I'd like to preserve a little bit of what's ours because we do work hard at doing things differently. If I wanted to think of it as purely financial then one could equate reputation with money and say that the better rep a person/business has then more business they are likely to get. Of course that's theory and the real reason here is simply to take credit where none is given. In today's world people are apt to take really fast because it's so easy to see some pictures on the net of something someone else did and duplicate that item without a second thought as to the work the other person put into developing it.

Especially with the Internet. Even if you tries to keep your work off the net there will always be others who want to show it and highlight it (hopefully, right?).

So my philosophy here is take credit and share sources and discuss and let the readers do their own research. If I do it this way at least I don't have to worry about someone coming across my site second and thinking I copied the person they found first.

[JohnBarton]

I do know how you feel on this topic.

A few weeks ago I saw one of my designs made by someone else who is on this forum. It was a practical utility design which I have been using and carrying for years.

Now to see someone else making it, And I freely admit his version is nicer and uses better leather is kinda cool it also makes me paranoid that all my stuff is going to get stolen. And some of my designs I do spend like yourself a long long time on, weeks sometimes. So that annoys me a little.

But I can also believe that someone else also came up with this design on their own, and have another person make it. I have no proof that his was done before mine, and when I realise that I have to simply say kudos to the man.

It's my idea but if people like it then they like it. Good for me, a little better for the person who made it for someone else and better for everyone who can share in the delight of using it.

I kind of hope and expect people to use what I show them on this site. It's sort of a validation that I am doing something right. I do hope that whoever does it would give me some credit though if they take something they saw me do first.

I don't consider it stealing when you give your ideas away. And when I see things on this site I consider them as shared with the idea that any of us can try the things done by others. Now, this isn't to say that any of us should go and copy someone's products verbatim and start a business selling "knockoffs" of what we see here.

I am specifically talking about taking someone's idea and seeing what you can do with it, can you do it as well, better? In that sense we are all here to learn and teach.

I know that I am better off having a community like this here to talk about the craft. I think it's polite to give credit if you try something you get from someone else and then show it off here.

Stealing to me would be be something like if I went and copied Bearman's mauls and put them up for sale. I have seen a few folks make their own based on his design and to me that's perfectly fine and in the spirit of the community.

Well anyway, I think that most everyone kind of "knows" what is right and wrong along these lines.

[TwinOaks]

The only way to keep anyone from stealing your design ideas is to have an extremely limited market, or not sell at all. That would take us back to the bad ol' days when leatherworkers wouldn't share info. Who wants to go back to that????

I understand the import of your thread, and agree with you. So far, the "JB cue case innovations" page on your website sounds like the best idea. Put it up for EVERYONE TO SEE...maybe even copy. As long as you are the one showing everyone what it is, it should become pretty common knowledge that you were the inventor.

[JohnBarton]

The only way to keep anyone from stealing your design ideas is to have an extremely limited market, or not sell at all. That would take us back to the bad ol' days when leatherworkers wouldn't share info. Who wants to go back to that????

I understand the import of your thread, and agree with you. So far, the "JB cue case innovations" page on your website sounds like the best idea. Put it up for EVERYONE TO SEE...maybe even copy. As long as you are the one showing everyone what it is, it should become pretty common knowledge that you were the inventor.

Live by the sword die by the sword. If you want the power of the net to get business then you have to contend with the fact that your competitors can use your pictures and descriptions to copy you.

I too think that the JB Innovations page is the best idea.

Now I am afraid that when I get around to listing them they may not seem quite as "important" as my ego wants me to believe. :-)

[JohnBarton]

Well, it's a fitting end to this thread that I came across this today while browsing some of the links on the LW homepage.

It's from this great site: A Sailor's Leather

He did the same thing I did - butt two ends together - do a simple criss-cross lace AND blend the strap holder into the seam. :-) Nothing new under the sun when it comes to leather working.

Check out the website - Opel Mok is a pretty prolific leather worker with a LOT of interesting stuff and a killer collection of self-made tools. And he gives credit for where he got his ideas!

So, with that I am done with this ego-trip, time to get back home and make something. Thanks again everyone for the discussion.

P.S. In case anyone is interested I skived the leather so that the two ends interlock and the seam line is not actually two pieces end to end but instead is two pieces overlapping so that the leather will lay down over the curve on the side of the plastic tube.