English saddle - removing buttons

[jimsaddler]

Kathy. Jim is right. From the pics the saddle appears to be an Asian copy. This means the flocking material can be anything from wool to hair to Kapok. Reflocking is not mearely shoving in new flock. It must be carefully and strategically placed so as not to cause lumps. Whatever material has been used it is now going to be packed down hard and will lump up if just put back in unless it is re-teased/cleaned.

The end result should leave the panel shaped so that it is square (ish) shaped with slightly rounded edges (so as to achieve the maximum bearing surface. If you end up with a panel that has just had as much flocking shoved in as it can handle without the seams bursting, you will achieve a domed panel and decrease the bearing surface.

I have heard some people counterline by cutting out some shearling to shape and adhere this to the old panel and then stitch the new lining over the top. I have never tried this but again Jim is right. The old lining is more likely than NOT good serge (if serge at all). The shearling method may be an easy method that will allow you to get a flat and even result.

I'll let Jim or others chime in with their thoughts.

Barra

Kathy

we Saddlers in Australia are proud of the Products that we make. Unfortunately there are copies of our products that are represented as "Aussie Stock Saddles" but fail miserably to achieve that status. That said the best use for them is to use them for a Teaching aid as they are cheap. So treat this project as a good learning lesson please.

Between us we will try to get a good description of how to do a Counterline properly from the start to finish.

I am pressed for time this weekend but during the next week I'll write up the steps for you (and others who want to learn) if that is okay with you. By the way we don't Flock a Stock Saddle, we "Stuff" the Saddle. Flock brings up visions of the dust associated with Flock and Kapok (not good on the Lungs). For Stuffing the traditional materials are , Doe Hair / Cow Hair for the frist Stuffing, Horse Hair / Cowtail, for the second Stuffing. The Doe (Cow) is Awled out and ponkied into the shape of the Horses Back to form a good bearing surface. It is then Ridden in for from 2 months to several years to Felt down. If the serge is in good condition, Horse Hair is then stuffed over the Doehair Base evenly (Hair Facing) which acts as a good Cushion and Heat Disapater, much like a good Saddle Blanket. If the Serge is not in good order then the Saddle has to be Counterlined. This entails taking the slack out of the old (Pure Wool) Serge and sewing a new serge lining on with allowance for the Doehair (which is added later). So I'll leave you to ponder what I'm talking about till I can get a bit of sparetime to do it properly. I'll have to rely on Barra or David to get some Photo's of the process if possible.

Please have a Happy day.

Jim.

[Onsite Tack]

WOW! This saddle - and all of you - is teaching me so much. I've attached pictures of the panel lining - it's thin, looks like tightly-woven cheesecloth. The flocking is multi-colored, material(s) unknown, and embedded with tons of dirt from years of riding. I will put in new flock. Big question now is - do I reuse this liner? It is closely adhered to the outer panel material - could it be part of the outer material? If I want new liner - what do I use and where do I get it.

Having tons of fun, here.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. The material of preference is wool serge. Traditionally it is either royal blue or a tan/mustard colour. I'm not sure where you could obtain it in the US but I'll investigate.

I have found a source in the US for serge but it is a wool acrylic blend.

http://www.carrtextile.com/acrylicwoolserge.html. I'm not really sure it will be suitable but have included the link as a starting point. I will now relate a story about a substitute material my old boss used to use for some repair work. He would use this material on occasion. Jim will probably fall off his stool when I mention what was sometimes used but the old boss had short arms and deep pockets. Plus he would use repair work as a way of teaching me without wasting good material on an apprentice who may or may not stuff up the job (An old joke was. You gonna "stuff" that panel "boy". My answer. PROBABLY.

Anyhoo. On occasion instead of good wool serge he would use Baize. This is the traditional material used to cover Pool/billiard tables and is very serge like in appearance. I am in no way referring to felt but baize, like serge is a coarsely woven wool material. Funny as it sounds the baize was very hard wearing and you could still awl the stuffing into place just like serge. Only real problem we had was the mountain of baize material he had (and I think it fell off the back of a truck) was traditional green baize. Looked a bit weird at first glance but the customers liked it. The ol bugger would pitch it as a sort of anti theft device as a customer could easily identify their saddle.

Barra

[jimsaddler]

Kathy. The material of preference is wool serge. Traditionally it is either royal blue or a tan/mustard colour. I'm not sure where you could obtain it in the US but I'll investigate.

I have found a source in the US for serge but it is a wool acrylic blend.

http://www.carrtextile.com/acrylicwoolserge.html. I'm not really sure it will be suitable but have included the link as a starting point. I will now relate a story about a substitute material my old boss used to use for some repair work. He would use this material on occasion. Jim will probably fall off his stool when I mention what was sometimes used but the old boss had short arms and deep pockets. Plus he would use repair work as a way of teaching me without wasting good material on an apprentice who may or may not stuff up the job (An old joke was. You gonna "stuff" that panel "boy". My answer. PROBABLY.

Anyhoo. On occasion instead of good wool serge he would use Baize. This is the traditional material used to cover Pool/billiard tables and is very serge like in appearance. I am in no way referring to felt but baize, like serge is a coarsely woven wool material. Funny as it sounds the baize was very hard wearing and you could still awl the stuffing into place just like serge. Only real problem we had was the mountain of baize material he had (and I think it fell off the back of a truck) was traditional green baize. Looked a bit weird at first glance but the customers liked it. The ol bugger would pitch it as a sort of anti theft device as a customer could easily identify their saddle.

Barra

Good one Barra, I hit my head when I fell off the chair.

I agree it will do the job though as a Learning process.

Kathy a full linning will be best, so remove the linning carefully and use it as a pattern for the new one.

Be back later.

Jim.

[barra]

Kathy. The parts of the panel are as follows. Other saddlers may have slight variations in terminology but the terms will be similar. The groundwork for the panel is made of flexible leather. Sometimes bag or chap weight leather is used (similar leather to the seat) and sometimes basil is used. I was taught that if basil was used then it was lined with canvas but that is just me. This is sort of the foundation and is the part that is shaped to the tree and flaps. I call this part of the panel the base panel. For economy sake it is made in 2 halves and stitched together at the pommel and cantle ends. From here the front and rear facings are attached. The front facing is that roll of thin leather you see at the front (about the diameter of your pinky finger.. The rear facing is shaped to give depth to the panel at the rear so as to allow the panel to conform to the tree shape and allow room to stuff. The lining is now cut to shape slightly over sized, again to allow room to stuff. The lining is attached to the front and rear facing with temporary tack ties at strategic points. The end result is you have to work in the lining to fit. (remember we cut it over sized). When you stitch it in you take up a minute/tiny amount of the over sized lining material with each new stitch. This way it will eventually fit without huge unsightly puckers being visible.

Now for stuffing. You will need a stuffing stick/rod. Some people stuff thru gaps in the stitching left around the sweat flap. This is that second flap that goes nearest the horse. Some people stuff thru slits left in the base panel and when done they close up the slits with fairly large stitches so the stuffing won't come out. The tricky part of stuffing thru slits in the base panel is if too much stuffing is put in (initially) you will have a dickens of a time attaching the panel to the tree, especially at the cantle end.

If you have removed the old panel you would have seen how it was stitched/laced in at the cantle end. When putting in the new one, the whole thing is laced in so all of the thread is rather loose until you get to the end. All of the stitches are then drawn up tight, sort of like pulling up the laces on a pair of boots. The front of the panel is re stitched as previously discussed.

P.S. You will probably also need a curved/bent awl to assist reattaching the panel at the cantle end. The panel is laced from the panel to a corresponding hole on the cantle. It is crucial it all lines up or you will have more panel one side than the other (twisted). The curved awl is to assist opening these holes as you re lace. A fairly large curved needle will also be needed. These you should be able to get from the haberdashery section of Wally world (curved needle that is).

Barra

Edited May 25, 2008 by barra

[Onsite Tack]

I know Jim and Barra are busy right now, but I want to report I have stitched the new billets onto the saddle. I have not removed the panel fabric, but I have taken out the old stuffing. While waiting, should I go ahead and remove the panel fabric and the lining?

Thanks so much. This is fun.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. Have you completely removed the panel from the top part of the saddle IE: unstitched the rear. I'm not sure what you mean by removing the panel fabric "and" lining. What are you calling the fabric and what are you calling the lining?

If you have removed the old stuffing and the panel is completely removed you can "carefully un stitch the old lining (the blue fabric) Unpick the old stitches. I have no idea what the base panel is made from but if it needs a few repair/patches now is the time to do that. Make sure that the stitching holding the front and rear facings onto the base panel are in good order. Using your old lining as a guide, mark out the new lining with chalk (any miniscule residue can later be brushed off).

How do you intend restitching the new lining. By hand or machine?

I had another thought re a suitable lining material if you can not get wool serge. I surfed the net and there are companies who specialise in Civil war re-enacting and make uniforms. The Blue material they make Union uniforms out of is a woolen material called Kersey. Not serge but I think it would do. Kersey is also used to make woollen show horse blankets and saddle cloths.

Barra

[Onsite Tack]

Hi, Barra.

On the panel - I have been confused by the terms, I think. The serge covers the stuffing, which is in-between the base panel and the serge, right? If so, I am still confused by 'lining'. I've been thinking 'lining' is something between the serge and the stuffing. On this saddle, inside the serge material there is a lighter, cheesecloth-like material adhering to the serge material. That is what I have been thinking you are referring to by 'lining'.

Because I started out wrong, I have that serge stitching removed from the front and along the seam line to the back. I have a huge bag of whitish wool flocking I bought awhile back and am planning to stuff with that.

I will be hand sewing everything back together. So, do I stitch it all back together, leaving a space for stuffing?

Am I close?

Thanks. :-)

Kathy

[barra]

Ok. Generally speaking with panels we can break down the parts starting with the material against the tree. Different saddlers will have slightly different methods and names.

1st layer of material will be what I call the base panel and is some sort of chap weight material and can be the same as used for the seat. English saddles traditionally used Basil which is Finished dressed leather made from sheepskin. Sometimes the base panel is lined with canvas.

2nd layer is the stuffing

3rd layer is the serge and this is the lining

If a saddle has ever been counterlined after it has conformed to the shape of the horses back you will have another layer of stuffing on top of the original serge and a new serge lining on top of that. I would not think counterlining would be frequently done on Australian stock saddles much outside of Australia.

Now that you have unpicked the lining (serge) stitching at the front and back facing, there should be further stitching between the front and rear facing (along the sweat flap). The sweat flap is the second large bit of leather under the riders leg and against the horse to protect the main flap from sweat. With all of the old lining removed, the new lining is going to be re sewn to the base panel and both facings, inside out, IE: grain side of both facings facing inside.

I think we will tackle putting in the new lining in the next installment as it can be a bit tricky. You have to cut it oversized to allow room for stuffing. You then have to slowly work in this oversized lining so it is even with no unsightly puckers.

There is a number of ways the new stuffing can be put in. Two of the most common methods are as follows.

Method 1 via a slit on the top of the base panel. This is eventually closed up with big hand sewn stitches eg herringbone

Method 2 via a gap in the lining about mid way along the sweat flap from front to rear facing. (Eventually closed up).

Barra

Edited June 4, 2008 by barra

[Onsite Tack]

Barra, thank you very much. I am away for a week, beginning today (Monday). I will tackle more of the saddle when I return. Your explanation is clear and my understanding grows.

Kathy