English saddle - removing buttons

[Onsite Tack]

I am taking apart an Australian-style flat saddle to replace billet straps. I have forgotten how to remove those round metal buttons that sit up near the pommel. Any ideas are most welcome.

Kathy

[gary]

I am taking apart an Australian-style flat saddle to replace billet straps. I have forgotten how to remove those round metal buttons that sit up near the pommel. Any ideas are most welcome.

Kathy

Kathy

Those are nails/tacks. They're like 1" long blue tacks with silver heads added.

You'll need to pull them out. I usually take the whole underside off (the forepiece and flaps and panels bit) by unstitching it (cutting and pulling the stitches out) - because I usually need to reflock a saddle that needs billet straps replacing and it's a good time to do a general overhaul and clean.

It's easier then because the underside is exposed and the tacks can be pulled out as you're taking it apart.

It's so much fun putting it all back together and seeing how many parts are left over on the workbench once you've finished!

Gary

[Onsite Tack]

Gary, thanks for the insight. I'd been hoping to avoid that, but it seems it will be the only way to do it. This saddle is aged and has tons of built in grease-dirt on every piece of metal. I've tried to get the nails out from the top, but no luck. Sigh!

Well, now I know what I need to do.

Thanks.

Kathy

[daviD A Morris]

If you are only replacing the billets then there is not need to take out those nails.

regards

dam

[jimsaddler]

<br />I am taking apart an Australian-style flat saddle to replace billet straps. I have forgotten how to remove those round metal buttons that sit up near the pommel. Any ideas are most welcome. <br /><br />Kathy<br />

<br /><br /><br />

David is right there is no need to remove the "Saddle Nails" as they only hold the Skirts or Flaps in place.

But is you do have to remove them use a Tack claw to unclench them as they are usually clenched over under the Tree. Then drive them out gently or carefully prise the Head out with Pincers or Tack Claw.

Have a Happy Day. Jim.

[barra]

Quick one. If you have to ever replace a saddle nail, take off the sharp (ish) edges of the nail with a few strokes of a fine file. Always tap the nail in by covering the head with a bit of scrap leather to protect the head.

Barra

[Onsite Tack]

This saddle has very short attachments from the tree to the billet straps. I cannot get sufficient access to them, it seems, without taking out those nails and being able to lift up most of the saddle from the tree. Is it possible to go in underneath after removing the panels?

Thanks for all the advice so far.

Kathy

[barra]

I have attached a pic of an English saddle tree with web strung seat. The principal of the Australian is the same. I'm not real sure now what you mean. The panel should be attached via stitching thru the flap - forepart and flap on the other side. The rear should be laced to the seat leather at the base of the cantle, The girth straps will be attached to the longer webbing cross straps (the white webbing straps). It should be relatively easy to gain access to the straps for replacement by simply cutting the stitches holding the panel up at the front. I'm not seeing why you would need to remove the saddle nails for the reasons Jim and David have mentioned.

It might be easier to guide you if you attach a few pictures.

Barra

Edited April 7, 2008 by barra

[daviD A Morris]

Just a couple of quick notes:

Only open up the front of the pannel

I use my pannel stuffing iron to hold the pannel open while working on the girth points

The whole operation is a bit awkward but beats the time involved in any "awkwardness saving measures"

I find the near side one more awkward than the off side.

Make the wholes in the Girth point first, seperately, beforer you start. big coarse stitches about 4 per inch

When lacing/stitching to the webbing, if you use an awl like in these photos, do not use a regular stitching awl that is sharp on the edges. THIS IS IMPORTANT. a sharp awl will cut the fibres of the webbing, use a round awl or here i have used one which is very blunt on the edges, it has to SEPRERATE the fibres of the webbing not CUT them. The saddlers that i have worked with in england don't even use an awl they use a very large needle an just push it thru using a thimble.

With older saddles, carefully check the condition of the webbing. and always tell the customer to always use a surcingle with these saddles. there are a few tricks for what to do if the webbing has deteriorated but that will have to be for another post.

Hope this helps.

dam

[Onsite Tack]

I think I understand now - I have to take off the panels completely to get at the billets. Am I right?

Thanks to everyone.

Kathy

I wanted to attach photos, but couldn't figure out how to make them small enough.

[barra]

No you just need to un stitch the panel at the front (pommel end).

Using David's photo's. In pic one he has un stitched the panel at the front and is using the stuffing stick to hold up the panel out of the way while he replaces the billet straps. The rear end of the panel is still attached. There is no need to un stitch the rear if all you need to do is get access to the billet straps

Pic 2 shows the billet strap stitched to the webbing. Note on the far billet you can see one method of stitching. It shows a criss cross pattern and this is acheived by alternating the stitches from the left to right side.

Pic 3 is another good example of only the front of the pannel being unstitched to gain access. Again the rear is still attached hence the stuffing stick being used to hold the still attached panel at the rear up and out of the way.

Barra

[Onsite Tack]

Barra and Dave - and everyone - thank you very much.

I will let you know what happens.

Kathy

[Onsite Tack]

I have attached 3 pictures of this pesky saddle so you can see what it looks like underneath. It does not look anything like Dave's pictures, unless Dave has already removed the padding. I was working on this saddle this evening and it sure seems to me that I have to remove all of this padding (see pictures). Of course, I can be rather dense, too.

Thanks, everyone.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. If you use David's second pic in the left column you more or less have your pic 3 after he has cut the stitches holding the front of the panel up.

On your pic 3. Have a look at the thin strip of brown rolled leather. This is called the front facing. Just on top of that I can make out the white stitches that need to be cut (and pick out). If you cut these stitches you will be able to push the front of the panel up and out of the way like David's pic 2, left column. When the billet strap is replaced you re stitch in the same holes you have at the front.

Barra

The brass (ish) hardware you have on the top of the saddle are from front to rear

1. D probably to attach a breastplate

2. Saddle staple. A duster or wallets/pommel bags can be attached here

3. The saddle nail. This should be simply holding the flap and skirt down to the tree

4. Drop down saddle staple. Just a different type of staple and is used like the first version

Edited May 4, 2008 by barra

[Onsite Tack]

Thank you! That is what I needed to know. I'm off to the shop tomorrow.

Kathy

[jimsaddler]

Thank you! That is what I needed to know. I'm off to the shop tomorrow.

Kathy

Cathy

Please excuse me buttig in on Barra & David They are right on track with advice.

I thought it may be an idea to run through step by step on "dropping the front of a Pannel".

1. with a short bladed Knife cut the stitches that join the Pannel (linning section) to the actual Saddle Start on the near side and carefully ease the Pannel way from the Saddle while cutting the Stitches as you go. Continue right arround the Front till you have cut all of the stitches and the Pannel starts to drop away from the Saddle. Be careful up in the Gullet as this is usually held there by a few Nails or tacks as well as the stitches, this why you use a short Knife.

2. Use a Tack claw to lever out the Nails or Tacks in the Gullet, be gentle as you can crack the Tree easily.

3. Now you should be able to ease the front of the Pannel downwards and off the points of the Tree.

4. If all has gone well you should nw be able to bend the Pannel to the Back and support it as David says with a Stuffing Iron or a stick.

5. From your photo I can see there is a Channel liner, this will be easily lifted out of the way to get at your Girth Strap (Point).

6. remove the old Girth straps carefully with the same Knife. I usually cut one stitch at a time and pull it out from the Webb.

7. To replace the Straps you must be careful with your Thread choice Lately I have been using a very Heavy Poly Braid as a doubled stitch and #1 Needles. Or you can make a 6 cord Common Hemp Waxed end to use as a single Thread.

8. Make your Girth Strap out of Butt Leather (no Stretch). I am wary of Doubled Straps as the Stitching wears thus shortening the life of the Strap. Best ex-heavy Harness is the best.

9. Now for the most important part! to stitch the new Straps on use an Awl that will not make a long hole. My preference is a nealy Square profile that will not cut the Webb but push the Strands apart.

10. It is a good idea to put your stitch holes in the end of the Strap before you actually start stitching. The Saddle in the Photo does not appear to have along webb end to sew to. so put your stitch holes at 5 per inch. Hold them in your Clams or Stitch horse to do so.

11. It is an idea to Tack or Glue your strap in place. An old Trade guide is to place the point of the Strap under the Tree point on the other side of the Saddle then lay the stitch end on the Webb and that should give you the right angle of lay when finished.

12. Stitch Single Needle starting from the very tip of the strap with a double stitch to lock the stitch, then come from the back of the third hole to the front and back through the second hole. Before tightening loop the back (long) Stitch to create a knot, then tighten the stitch very firmly. Continue to stitch in this manner, ending and starting with a double stitch. I allways knot each stitch for safety and have never had a failure.

13. Assembly is the reverse proceedure, but stitch instead of cutting. Careful putting the nais back in put them in in different holes and slope each nail to the Gullet plate so it will have eneough meat to get a good hold.

I have one little worry about the Saddle in the Photo, it may be of Asian origin. If so be extra careful of weak materials.

Please have a Happy Day.

Kindest regards. Jim.

[Onsite Tack]

Thank you, Jim for those great details on repairing this saddle. I am now stitching on the first billet and have been following your steps. Verlane had already illustrated the back stitch for me and I have #6 thread doubled. Working well, so far.

My new question is the flocking - do I put the old flocking back in or the nice new stuff I have on hand? Is it okay to put the flocking in while the panel is wide open like this? I have not reflocked a saddle the traditional way as yet.

Many thanks.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. How much of the flocking has been removed?

What should actually occur now is what is known as counterlining. This is a new lining material stitched to the old and nice new flocking placed between the old and new linings.

Barra

[jimsaddler]

Thank you, Jim for those great details on repairing this saddle. I am now stitching on the first billet and have been following your steps. Verlane had already illustrated the back stitch for me and I have #6 thread doubled. Working well, so far.

My new question is the flocking - do I put the old flocking back in or the nice new stuff I have on hand? Is it okay to put the flocking in while the panel is wide open like this? I have not reflocked a saddle the traditional way as yet.

Many thanks.

Kathy

Hey Kathy I'm glad it helped.

Barra is right a Stock Saddle should be "Counterlined" and Stuffed with Horse Hair or good Teased Cawtail Hair, for spring!

What sort of Flock is the Pannel stuffed with?

From the colour of the Linning Material, I suspect it is an Asian copy. So it may be hard to get a good Counterline onto it, as the linning will be flimsy to stitch to. If so this will be a big job.

Let me know and between a few of us we can try to advise.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[barra]

Kathy. Jim is right. From the pics the saddle appears to be an Asian copy. This means the flocking material can be anything from wool to hair to Kapok. Reflocking is not mearely shoving in new flock. It must be carefully and strategically placed so as not to cause lumps. Whatever material has been used it is now going to be packed down hard and will lump up if just put back in unless it is re-teased/cleaned.

The end result should leave the panel shaped so that it is square (ish) shaped with slightly rounded edges (so as to achieve the maximum bearing surface. If you end up with a panel that has just had as much flocking shoved in as it can handle without the seams bursting, you will achieve a domed panel and decrease the bearing surface.

I have heard some people counterline by cutting out some shearling to shape and adhere this to the old panel and then stitch the new lining over the top. I have never tried this but again Jim is right. The old lining is more likely than NOT good serge (if serge at all). The shearling method may be an easy method that will allow you to get a flat and even result.

I'll let Jim or others chime in with their thoughts.

Barra

Edited May 23, 2008 by barra

[jimsaddler]

Kathy. Jim is right. From the pics the saddle appears to be an Asian copy. This means the flocking material can be anything from wool to hair to Kapok. Reflocking is not mearely shoving in new flock. It must be carefully and strategically placed so as not to cause lumps. Whatever material has been used it is now going to be packed down hard and will lump up if just put back in unless it is re-teased/cleaned.

The end result should leave the panel shaped so that it is square (ish) shaped with slightly rounded edges (so as to achieve the maximum bearing surface. If you end up with a panel that has just had as much flocking shoved in as it can handle without the seams bursting, you will achieve a domed panel and decrease the bearing surface.

I have heard some people counterline by cutting out some shearling to shape and adhere this to the old panel and then stitch the new lining over the top. I have never tried this but again Jim is right. The old lining is more likely than NOT good serge (if serge at all). The shearling method may be an easy method that will allow you to get a flat and even result.

I'll let Jim or others chime in with their thoughts.

Barra

Kathy

we Saddlers in Australia are proud of the Products that we make. Unfortunately there are copies of our products that are represented as "Aussie Stock Saddles" but fail miserably to achieve that status. That said the best use for them is to use them for a Teaching aid as they are cheap. So treat this project as a good learning lesson please.

Between us we will try to get a good description of how to do a Counterline properly from the start to finish.

I am pressed for time this weekend but during the next week I'll write up the steps for you (and others who want to learn) if that is okay with you. By the way we don't Flock a Stock Saddle, we "Stuff" the Saddle. Flock brings up visions of the dust associated with Flock and Kapok (not good on the Lungs). For Stuffing the traditional materials are , Doe Hair / Cow Hair for the frist Stuffing, Horse Hair / Cowtail, for the second Stuffing. The Doe (Cow) is Awled out and ponkied into the shape of the Horses Back to form a good bearing surface. It is then Ridden in for from 2 months to several years to Felt down. If the serge is in good condition, Horse Hair is then stuffed over the Doehair Base evenly (Hair Facing) which acts as a good Cushion and Heat Disapater, much like a good Saddle Blanket. If the Serge is not in good order then the Saddle has to be Counterlined. This entails taking the slack out of the old (Pure Wool) Serge and sewing a new serge lining on with allowance for the Doehair (which is added later). So I'll leave you to ponder what I'm talking about till I can get a bit of sparetime to do it properly. I'll have to rely on Barra or David to get some Photo's of the process if possible.

Please have a Happy day.

Jim.

[Onsite Tack]

WOW! This saddle - and all of you - is teaching me so much. I've attached pictures of the panel lining - it's thin, looks like tightly-woven cheesecloth. The flocking is multi-colored, material(s) unknown, and embedded with tons of dirt from years of riding. I will put in new flock. Big question now is - do I reuse this liner? It is closely adhered to the outer panel material - could it be part of the outer material? If I want new liner - what do I use and where do I get it.

Having tons of fun, here.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. The material of preference is wool serge. Traditionally it is either royal blue or a tan/mustard colour. I'm not sure where you could obtain it in the US but I'll investigate.

I have found a source in the US for serge but it is a wool acrylic blend.

http://www.carrtextile.com/acrylicwoolserge.html. I'm not really sure it will be suitable but have included the link as a starting point. I will now relate a story about a substitute material my old boss used to use for some repair work. He would use this material on occasion. Jim will probably fall off his stool when I mention what was sometimes used but the old boss had short arms and deep pockets. Plus he would use repair work as a way of teaching me without wasting good material on an apprentice who may or may not stuff up the job (An old joke was. You gonna "stuff" that panel "boy". My answer. PROBABLY.

Anyhoo. On occasion instead of good wool serge he would use Baize. This is the traditional material used to cover Pool/billiard tables and is very serge like in appearance. I am in no way referring to felt but baize, like serge is a coarsely woven wool material. Funny as it sounds the baize was very hard wearing and you could still awl the stuffing into place just like serge. Only real problem we had was the mountain of baize material he had (and I think it fell off the back of a truck) was traditional green baize. Looked a bit weird at first glance but the customers liked it. The ol bugger would pitch it as a sort of anti theft device as a customer could easily identify their saddle.

Barra

[jimsaddler]

Kathy. The material of preference is wool serge. Traditionally it is either royal blue or a tan/mustard colour. I'm not sure where you could obtain it in the US but I'll investigate.

I have found a source in the US for serge but it is a wool acrylic blend.

http://www.carrtextile.com/acrylicwoolserge.html. I'm not really sure it will be suitable but have included the link as a starting point. I will now relate a story about a substitute material my old boss used to use for some repair work. He would use this material on occasion. Jim will probably fall off his stool when I mention what was sometimes used but the old boss had short arms and deep pockets. Plus he would use repair work as a way of teaching me without wasting good material on an apprentice who may or may not stuff up the job (An old joke was. You gonna "stuff" that panel "boy". My answer. PROBABLY.

Anyhoo. On occasion instead of good wool serge he would use Baize. This is the traditional material used to cover Pool/billiard tables and is very serge like in appearance. I am in no way referring to felt but baize, like serge is a coarsely woven wool material. Funny as it sounds the baize was very hard wearing and you could still awl the stuffing into place just like serge. Only real problem we had was the mountain of baize material he had (and I think it fell off the back of a truck) was traditional green baize. Looked a bit weird at first glance but the customers liked it. The ol bugger would pitch it as a sort of anti theft device as a customer could easily identify their saddle.

Barra

Good one Barra, I hit my head when I fell off the chair.

I agree it will do the job though as a Learning process.

Kathy a full linning will be best, so remove the linning carefully and use it as a pattern for the new one.

Be back later.

Jim.

[barra]

Kathy. The parts of the panel are as follows. Other saddlers may have slight variations in terminology but the terms will be similar. The groundwork for the panel is made of flexible leather. Sometimes bag or chap weight leather is used (similar leather to the seat) and sometimes basil is used. I was taught that if basil was used then it was lined with canvas but that is just me. This is sort of the foundation and is the part that is shaped to the tree and flaps. I call this part of the panel the base panel. For economy sake it is made in 2 halves and stitched together at the pommel and cantle ends. From here the front and rear facings are attached. The front facing is that roll of thin leather you see at the front (about the diameter of your pinky finger.. The rear facing is shaped to give depth to the panel at the rear so as to allow the panel to conform to the tree shape and allow room to stuff. The lining is now cut to shape slightly over sized, again to allow room to stuff. The lining is attached to the front and rear facing with temporary tack ties at strategic points. The end result is you have to work in the lining to fit. (remember we cut it over sized). When you stitch it in you take up a minute/tiny amount of the over sized lining material with each new stitch. This way it will eventually fit without huge unsightly puckers being visible.

Now for stuffing. You will need a stuffing stick/rod. Some people stuff thru gaps in the stitching left around the sweat flap. This is that second flap that goes nearest the horse. Some people stuff thru slits left in the base panel and when done they close up the slits with fairly large stitches so the stuffing won't come out. The tricky part of stuffing thru slits in the base panel is if too much stuffing is put in (initially) you will have a dickens of a time attaching the panel to the tree, especially at the cantle end.

If you have removed the old panel you would have seen how it was stitched/laced in at the cantle end. When putting in the new one, the whole thing is laced in so all of the thread is rather loose until you get to the end. All of the stitches are then drawn up tight, sort of like pulling up the laces on a pair of boots. The front of the panel is re stitched as previously discussed.

P.S. You will probably also need a curved/bent awl to assist reattaching the panel at the cantle end. The panel is laced from the panel to a corresponding hole on the cantle. It is crucial it all lines up or you will have more panel one side than the other (twisted). The curved awl is to assist opening these holes as you re lace. A fairly large curved needle will also be needed. These you should be able to get from the haberdashery section of Wally world (curved needle that is).

Barra

Edited May 25, 2008 by barra