English saddle - removing buttons

[barra]

No you just need to un stitch the panel at the front (pommel end).

Using David's photo's. In pic one he has un stitched the panel at the front and is using the stuffing stick to hold up the panel out of the way while he replaces the billet straps. The rear end of the panel is still attached. There is no need to un stitch the rear if all you need to do is get access to the billet straps

Pic 2 shows the billet strap stitched to the webbing. Note on the far billet you can see one method of stitching. It shows a criss cross pattern and this is acheived by alternating the stitches from the left to right side.

Pic 3 is another good example of only the front of the pannel being unstitched to gain access. Again the rear is still attached hence the stuffing stick being used to hold the still attached panel at the rear up and out of the way.

Barra

[Onsite Tack]

Barra and Dave - and everyone - thank you very much.

I will let you know what happens.

Kathy

[Onsite Tack]

I have attached 3 pictures of this pesky saddle so you can see what it looks like underneath. It does not look anything like Dave's pictures, unless Dave has already removed the padding. I was working on this saddle this evening and it sure seems to me that I have to remove all of this padding (see pictures). Of course, I can be rather dense, too.

Thanks, everyone.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. If you use David's second pic in the left column you more or less have your pic 3 after he has cut the stitches holding the front of the panel up.

On your pic 3. Have a look at the thin strip of brown rolled leather. This is called the front facing. Just on top of that I can make out the white stitches that need to be cut (and pick out). If you cut these stitches you will be able to push the front of the panel up and out of the way like David's pic 2, left column. When the billet strap is replaced you re stitch in the same holes you have at the front.

Barra

The brass (ish) hardware you have on the top of the saddle are from front to rear

1. D probably to attach a breastplate

2. Saddle staple. A duster or wallets/pommel bags can be attached here

3. The saddle nail. This should be simply holding the flap and skirt down to the tree

4. Drop down saddle staple. Just a different type of staple and is used like the first version

Edited May 4, 2008 by barra

[Onsite Tack]

Thank you! That is what I needed to know. I'm off to the shop tomorrow.

Kathy

[jimsaddler]

Thank you! That is what I needed to know. I'm off to the shop tomorrow.

Kathy

Cathy

Please excuse me buttig in on Barra & David They are right on track with advice.

I thought it may be an idea to run through step by step on "dropping the front of a Pannel".

1. with a short bladed Knife cut the stitches that join the Pannel (linning section) to the actual Saddle Start on the near side and carefully ease the Pannel way from the Saddle while cutting the Stitches as you go. Continue right arround the Front till you have cut all of the stitches and the Pannel starts to drop away from the Saddle. Be careful up in the Gullet as this is usually held there by a few Nails or tacks as well as the stitches, this why you use a short Knife.

2. Use a Tack claw to lever out the Nails or Tacks in the Gullet, be gentle as you can crack the Tree easily.

3. Now you should be able to ease the front of the Pannel downwards and off the points of the Tree.

4. If all has gone well you should nw be able to bend the Pannel to the Back and support it as David says with a Stuffing Iron or a stick.

5. From your photo I can see there is a Channel liner, this will be easily lifted out of the way to get at your Girth Strap (Point).

6. remove the old Girth straps carefully with the same Knife. I usually cut one stitch at a time and pull it out from the Webb.

7. To replace the Straps you must be careful with your Thread choice Lately I have been using a very Heavy Poly Braid as a doubled stitch and #1 Needles. Or you can make a 6 cord Common Hemp Waxed end to use as a single Thread.

8. Make your Girth Strap out of Butt Leather (no Stretch). I am wary of Doubled Straps as the Stitching wears thus shortening the life of the Strap. Best ex-heavy Harness is the best.

9. Now for the most important part! to stitch the new Straps on use an Awl that will not make a long hole. My preference is a nealy Square profile that will not cut the Webb but push the Strands apart.

10. It is a good idea to put your stitch holes in the end of the Strap before you actually start stitching. The Saddle in the Photo does not appear to have along webb end to sew to. so put your stitch holes at 5 per inch. Hold them in your Clams or Stitch horse to do so.

11. It is an idea to Tack or Glue your strap in place. An old Trade guide is to place the point of the Strap under the Tree point on the other side of the Saddle then lay the stitch end on the Webb and that should give you the right angle of lay when finished.

12. Stitch Single Needle starting from the very tip of the strap with a double stitch to lock the stitch, then come from the back of the third hole to the front and back through the second hole. Before tightening loop the back (long) Stitch to create a knot, then tighten the stitch very firmly. Continue to stitch in this manner, ending and starting with a double stitch. I allways knot each stitch for safety and have never had a failure.

13. Assembly is the reverse proceedure, but stitch instead of cutting. Careful putting the nais back in put them in in different holes and slope each nail to the Gullet plate so it will have eneough meat to get a good hold.

I have one little worry about the Saddle in the Photo, it may be of Asian origin. If so be extra careful of weak materials.

Please have a Happy Day.

Kindest regards. Jim.

[Onsite Tack]

Thank you, Jim for those great details on repairing this saddle. I am now stitching on the first billet and have been following your steps. Verlane had already illustrated the back stitch for me and I have #6 thread doubled. Working well, so far.

My new question is the flocking - do I put the old flocking back in or the nice new stuff I have on hand? Is it okay to put the flocking in while the panel is wide open like this? I have not reflocked a saddle the traditional way as yet.

Many thanks.

Kathy

[barra]

Kathy. How much of the flocking has been removed?

What should actually occur now is what is known as counterlining. This is a new lining material stitched to the old and nice new flocking placed between the old and new linings.

Barra

[jimsaddler]

Thank you, Jim for those great details on repairing this saddle. I am now stitching on the first billet and have been following your steps. Verlane had already illustrated the back stitch for me and I have #6 thread doubled. Working well, so far.

My new question is the flocking - do I put the old flocking back in or the nice new stuff I have on hand? Is it okay to put the flocking in while the panel is wide open like this? I have not reflocked a saddle the traditional way as yet.

Many thanks.

Kathy

Hey Kathy I'm glad it helped.

Barra is right a Stock Saddle should be "Counterlined" and Stuffed with Horse Hair or good Teased Cawtail Hair, for spring!

What sort of Flock is the Pannel stuffed with?

From the colour of the Linning Material, I suspect it is an Asian copy. So it may be hard to get a good Counterline onto it, as the linning will be flimsy to stitch to. If so this will be a big job.

Let me know and between a few of us we can try to advise.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[barra]

Kathy. Jim is right. From the pics the saddle appears to be an Asian copy. This means the flocking material can be anything from wool to hair to Kapok. Reflocking is not mearely shoving in new flock. It must be carefully and strategically placed so as not to cause lumps. Whatever material has been used it is now going to be packed down hard and will lump up if just put back in unless it is re-teased/cleaned.

The end result should leave the panel shaped so that it is square (ish) shaped with slightly rounded edges (so as to achieve the maximum bearing surface. If you end up with a panel that has just had as much flocking shoved in as it can handle without the seams bursting, you will achieve a domed panel and decrease the bearing surface.

I have heard some people counterline by cutting out some shearling to shape and adhere this to the old panel and then stitch the new lining over the top. I have never tried this but again Jim is right. The old lining is more likely than NOT good serge (if serge at all). The shearling method may be an easy method that will allow you to get a flat and even result.

I'll let Jim or others chime in with their thoughts.

Barra

Edited May 23, 2008 by barra