question about trigger snaps

[ruthless]

I want to use the strongest snaps available on the leashes I make. I've ordered solid brass ones from Ohio Travel Bag company. They arrived yesterday and they have a small hole in the centre shaft [photo 3]. The stainless steel snap on a lead I bought from a friend of a friend has no hole [photo 1]. The small brass on a collar I got from Leerburg has no hole in it either [photo 2]. I remember hearing at a dog training I went to that the hole in the centre makes it weak and can break under pressure. Does that only apply to die cast snaps? Are there stronger solid brass snaps available?

Excuse the crappy phone pics!!

[ruthless]

I just found this:

http://www.k9force.n...h_breakage.html

Now my question is, are the rounded eye snaps stronger than the square eye snaps?

[Excuse my obsession with strength, it's going to be my main marketing angle though so I have to get it right!!]

Edited December 3, 2009 by ruthless

[Spence]

IMHO, if you could find a solid shaft clip as in #3, it would be the way to go - IF you are using flat leather.

Another opinion I have has to do with the strength of the leather or whatever material the leash is made of. If it is a flat lead, then putting it through a round eye is going to wear at the edges of the leash and it will definitely shorten the life of the leash. You need to be prepared to inspect that leash at every opportunity and scrap it when the wear gets to a 15-20% level. You may want to think about looking for a square eye.

If you are using a braided lead and have 'wear leather' on the inside of the clip loop, you have better security. A 10-12 str 'roo braid with two or three paracord cores, back braided into the leash itself, will provide you with an enormous amount of strength.

I don't have a Rott, but I have 5 GSDs that are protection trained and I work them at least 3x a week. I use a 10 str 'roo braid as described above. I've also got a 6 str 'roo braid with a French Scissor Clip by Herm Spenger. I have wear leather on that one and have replace the wear leather a couple of times. The clip is deceptively strong and is favored by law enforcement and some military applications. My biggest reservation is the loop. It just seems too small and too sharp. After all, we don't want our "sweet things" getting loose at the wrong moment.

[Billsotx]

I'm not familiar with K9 Force and the photos aren't clear on that site but it looks like he has good snaps. That said, the best (mil spec) K9 equipment, including leather, is Ray Allen - it's par excellence in my experience. You might look at his site and get other ideas: http://www.rayallen.com/. The USAF dog school used to buy their supplies from Ray Allen and still may. We bought our patrol dog equipment there also because we saw it in action at the AF dog school and knew it was top quality.

I saw quite a few snaps broken over the years. Usually they pull through and separate at the swivel. I'd bet you'll see that happen in the one with the hole. You're right in being leery of that one. I don't know whether the round or square swivel is stronger. I've never see brass snaps - they were all stainless. Still you see brass snaps on horse leads, so I wouldn't write brass off.

You might search for the mil spec on snaps and leads, leashes, K9 leather, etc. and see if you can find some specifics. I'll look for some tomorrow, can't now.

Two other things to consider; problems I experienced. 1) How high the thumb piece sticks up. 2) How strong the spring is on the thumb piece. The lower and flatter the thumb piece is to the body of that shaft it's housed in the less likely it will inadvertently get catch and tripped. I'd like to have a dollar for every dog I saw that got off a cheesy snap that was tripped when the handler flipped the leash while correcting a dog when teaching the "out" or some felony behavior that needed a stern correction, and then there were those times when a dog simply ducked back under the leash and then lounged back out and the inertia was such that the weak spring allowed the thumb piece to open and the dog was gone - talk about feeling helpless ... not the dog, but You! ... lol. I mean the handler not "you" specifically, but you knew that.

I have seen good snaps on horse leashes but I don't know a source for snaps. I haven't seen any good snaps on dog leashes that I've seen commercially - Wal-Mart, Target, Pets-mart, or Pet-whatever.

Weaver may be a source of good snaps. Sorry, I can't provide anything solid.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Billsotx

[ruthless]

IMHO, if you could find a solid shaft clip as in #3, it would be the way to go - IF you are using flat leather.

By #3 do you mean the third picture??

Another opinion I have has to do with the strength of the leather or whatever material the leash is made of. If it is a flat lead, then putting it through a round eye is going to wear at the edges of the leash and it will definitely shorten the life of the leash. You need to be prepared to inspect that leash at every opportunity and scrap it when the wear gets to a 15-20% level. You may want to think about looking for a square eye.

If you are using a braided lead and have 'wear leather' on the inside of the clip loop, you have better security. A 10-12 str 'roo braid with two or three paracord cores, back braided into the leash itself, will provide you with an enormous amount of strength.

I don't have a Rott, but I have 5 GSDs that are protection trained and I work them at least 3x a week. I use a 10 str 'roo braid as described above. I've also got a 6 str 'roo braid with a French Scissor Clip by Herm Spenger. I have wear leather on that one and have replace the wear leather a couple of times. The clip is deceptively strong and is favored by law enforcement and some military applications. My biggest reservation is the loop. It just seems too small and too sharp. After all, we don't want our "sweet things" getting loose at the wrong moment.

I'll be using English bridle leather.

Do you mean, the square eye in the third picture looks too sharp and small??

[ruthless]

I'm not familiar with K9 Force and the photos aren't clear on that site but it looks like he has good snaps.

His snaps and the ones on the Leerburg website look the same as the ones I ordered [pic #3]

http://leerburg.com/leatherleash.htm

That said, the best (mil spec) K9 equipment, including leather, is Ray Allen - it's par excellence in my experience. You might look at his site and get other ideas: http://www.rayallen.com/. The USAF dog school used to buy their supplies from Ray Allen and still may. We bought our patrol dog equipment there also because we saw it in action at the AF dog school and knew it was top quality.

I saw quite a few snaps broken over the years. Usually they pull through and separate at the swivel. I'd bet you'll see that happen in the one with the hole. You're right in being leery of that one. I don't know whether the round or square swivel is stronger. I've never see brass snaps - they were all stainless. Still you see brass snaps on horse leads, so I wouldn't write brass off.

You might search for the mil spec on snaps and leads, leashes, K9 leather, etc. and see if you can find some specifics. I'll look for some tomorrow, can't now.

Thanks

Two other things to consider; problems I experienced. 1) How high the thumb piece sticks up. 2) How strong the spring is on the thumb piece. The lower and flatter the thumb piece is to the body of that shaft it's housed in the less likely it will inadvertently get catch and tripped. I'd like to have a dollar for every dog I saw that got off a cheesy snap that was tripped when the handler flipped the leash while correcting a dog when teaching the "out" or some felony behavior that needed a stern correction, and then there were those times when a dog simply ducked back under the leash and then lounged back out and the inertia was such that the weak spring allowed the thumb piece to open and the dog was gone - talk about feeling helpless ... not the dog, but You! ... lol. I mean the handler not "you" specifically, but you knew that.

I have seen good snaps on horse leashes but I don't know a source for snaps. I haven't seen any good snaps on dog leashes that I've seen commercially - Wal-Mart, Target, Pets-mart, or Pet-whatever.

Weaver may be a source of good snaps. Sorry, I can't provide anything solid.

The stainless steel one in the first photo has come open a few times. One of my dogs [Chopper, 19kg Staffy mix] wears a prong collar on walks and sometimes he'll shake his head to try and move it lower on his neck and I find myself with the lead in my hand and him walking offlead beside me unaware of his freedom!! Luckily, it's never happened in a situation where I needed him attached to a lead, it's still a concern though.

The snaps in pic #3 are from Ohio Travel Bag. I'm trying to get stainless steel ones from Weaver, but getting set up as a customer has taken weeks and I still don't have a pricelist so I need to wait for that to arrive from the US before I can order. Sigh.

[Spence]

By #3 do you mean the third picture??

I'll be using English bridle leather.

Do you mean, the square eye in the third picture looks too sharp and small??

I always use a square eye snaphook with strap leather.

I just took another look at your pictures and the one in picture #1 (top) appears to be the best choice. Don't know how I missed it.

I've used these folks for my D & O rings and clips for 5 years and have never had a problem with their equipment. http://www.cdwplus.com/brassS.html

The "too sharp and small" I was referring to is the French Scissors clip, not pictured. http://www.pineofalconry.com/product_more.php?id=56

g'luck

Edited December 3, 2009 by Spence

[Billsotx]

Take a look at the thumb piece on the 8th snap down from the top (3/4" Heavy Square Eye Brass Snap Hooks-3" long) http://www.cdwplus.com/brassS.html. The thumb pieces appears to be smaller, i.e. flatter and slightly tapered. It's similar to my old Ray Allen snaps, but they aren't brass. I found that low profile thumb piece less apt to catch and open inadvertently.

Your dog shaking the leash loose is due probably due to too weak a spring. I had a Dobe that would do that. He learned he could shake it free. It drove him crazy when I got a better snap. He would also lunge against those cheesy snaps and pull the shaft out of the ring.

If you find good snaps let us know. I've always held onto my Ray Allen snaps and just make new leashes because I've not found good strong ones with low profile thumb pieces, but I'm just keeping up my personal gear and not trying to market anything.

[CurtisT]

I have a freind that makes leashes , collars and harness for dogs out of harness leather and latigo. He sells them at his dog club for P.S.A ( Protection Severice Association ) He gave one to a freind of ours for his Rottie made of harness leather and he uses all brass hardware well our freind truck broke down and he used this leash to tow it about a mile with no damage to the clip at all and some scuff markes to the leather. He is checking into bridle leather to make equiptment out of but it's hard to find here at the dealers we go to and expensive about double the price of harness leather. He will not do mail order he needs the hide to be a certain size and then is only able to cut strapes for 10 to 12 leashes out of a side. I will ask him where he gets his hardware and post it or pm you with the info.

[Billsotx]

I have a freind that makes leashes , collars and harness for dogs out of harness leather and latigo. He sells them at his dog club for P.S.A ( Protection Severice Association ) He gave one to a freind of ours for his Rottie made of harness leather and he uses all brass hardware well our freind truck broke down and he used this leash to tow it about a mile with no damage to the clip at all and some scuff markes to the leather. He is checking into bridle leather to make equiptment out of but it's hard to find here at the dealers we go to and expensive about double the price of harness leather. He will not do mail order he needs the hide to be a certain size and then is only able to cut strapes for 10 to 12 leashes out of a side. I will ask him where he gets his hardware and post it or pm you with the info.

Hello Curtis,

We'd all like to know if you're able to find a good source.

[TigerPal]

The pictures that you show, I've always heard called either bolt snaps, or spring snaps. I don't trust that type for a heavy-duty dog leash, whether made of brass or steel, since I had a couple fail on me and/or the dog managing to twist his collar in a manner that slipped it loose from the snap. What I've known as "trigger" snaps have 2 curved parts (one of which rotates, with a side "trigger"), shaped in such a way even if the spring gives way, there is still a curve holding things together. Recommend you take a look at Tandy's new catalog, page 119, item numbers 1148-02 & -03, 1154-01, -02 & -03 for nickel plated versions, or item 1147-00 for solid brass.

Edited December 11, 2009 by TigerPal

[ruthless]

I've never seen one of those used on a heavy duty dog leash, have you? Any links?

The pictures that you show, I've always heard called either bolt snaps, or spring snaps. I don't trust that type for a heavy-duty dog leash, whether made of brass or steel, since I had a couple fail on me and/or the dog managing to twist his collar in a manner that slipped it loose from the snap. What I've known as "trigger" snaps have 2 curved parts (one of which rotates, with a side "trigger"), shaped in such a way even if the spring gives way, there is still a curve holding things together. Recommend you take a look at Tandy's new catalog, page 119, item numbers 1148-02 & -03, 1154-01, -02 & -03 for nickel plated versions, or item 1147-00 for solid brass.

[ruthless]

I will ask him where he gets his hardware and post it or pm you with the info.

That'd be great, thanks

[HarryB]

I've used the spring snaps pictured for years on both horse and dog equipment. I've never had an animal break one of the snaps. The snaps have broken due to springs popping out or the movable part of the latch breaking but never had one straightened out by an animal. I have seen the scissor snaps break. I had a half wolf/half Malimute that could break a scissor snap easily. I really don't think the casting hole in the base of the brass snap will affect the overall strength that much. You are making leashes for dogs: not dinosaurs. As long as the animal is not tied fast to a fence post or light post you will probably be OK.

[ryanf]

The pictures that you show, I've always heard called either bolt snaps, or spring snaps. I don't trust that type for a heavy-duty dog leash, whether made of brass or steel, since I had a couple fail on me and/or the dog managing to twist his collar in a manner that slipped it loose from the snap. What I've known as "trigger" snaps have 2 curved parts (one of which rotates, with a side "trigger"), shaped in such a way even if the spring gives way, there is still a curve holding things together. Recommend you take a look at Tandy's new catalog, page 119, item numbers 1148-02 & -03, 1154-01, -02 & -03 for nickel plated versions, or item 1147-00 for solid brass.

I made a couple of leashes for our dogs' trainers for Christmas. They loved them, but one suggested this type of snap. She's had problems with dogs slipping out of the others (she tends to take in the rowdy dogs - a test of skill and patience, but also a reflection on her dedication to dogs that many, if not most, would dismiss). It sounded as though she does have leashes with these trigger snaps, so they must be commercially available, though I don't recall seeing them anywhere. Certainly not at any of the big-box pet stores.

This probably doesn't answer anyone's questions, but the suggestion was enough to make me go out and buy trigger snaps for the rest of the leashes I'm working on.