Product Design

[DaCodaBuchan]

So, I am meeting with a friend in fashion design next week to discuss leather. Yesterday I was talking to another friend about leather's use for topping benches and desks.

I have several sketches in the works for different bags and wallets. All of this made me curious as to how other leather workers (not that I really consider myself one yet) come up with product designs. Do you use borrowed patterns and templates, do you sketch out and design your own stuff, do you have friends in design, or do you just stick to simple stuff?

What are your thoughts and input on design and leather crafting.

Edited January 13, 2010 by DaCodaBuchan

[UKRay]

The whole design process is a struggle when you are trying to keep up with ongoing orders. I tend to design a product for a specific customer, make and deliver it, and then make more of them for inventory. This means the first one is very much the customer's idea with my input making it happen. Subsequent products are more my own.

I'm rather restricted by my poor drawing. I'm not an artist and wouldn't pretend to be one. I'm an artisan, pure (okay, maybe not so pure!) and simple. I rely on real artists for illustrations, line art and the like and content myself with being able to cut a straight line and burnish a good edge. Where I'm going to here is that my design process relies on other people's contributions although the final build decisions are mine.

I do use other people's design ideas occasionally - at least, I look at pieces of work and re-design them to suit my style of working and aesthetics. This is a long and often laborious process involving cardboard, glue and all manner of pins, tacks and staples but it seems to work for me. At the end of the day, I'm making my own patterns for the things I sell and this gives me a lot of satisfaction.

I tried to purchase patterns from other forum users a while back and although I had a few bites, I believe people are reticent about parting with their patterns because they do take so long to develop. I'm still hoping that a bit of hard cash will prompt people to part with their finished designs, but I'm not optimistic.

Right now I have half a dozen design jobs on the bench and have very little to work on. I just know I'm going to sit for hours trying to find the best way to make these complex projects come together and, I suppose, that is one of the skills we develop as competent leatherworkers.

I know you didn't ask this but:

One of the things that makes me most angry about this forum is the way some people assume that others will provide them with free patterns that have taken hours of sweat to develop. It makes me even more angry when they forget to say thank you afterwards.

One of the things I like best is that there are still good-hearted people who will continue to offer help, patterns, advice, instructions and tutorials without payment or acknowledgement.

Ray

[JLSleather]

... the customer's idea with my input making it happen. Subsequent products are more my own.

...I'm not an artist and wouldn't pretend to be one...I rely on real artists for illustrations, line art and the like ... my design process relies on other people's contributions although the final build decisions are mine.... I look at pieces of work and re-design them to suit my style of working and aesthetics...At the end of the day, I'm making my own patterns for the things I sell and this gives me a lot of satisfaction... hours trying to find the best way to make these complex projects come together...

I know you didn't ask this but:

One of the things that makes me most angry about this forum is the way some people assume that others will provide them with free patterns that have taken hours of sweat to develop. It makes me even more angry when they forget to say thank you afterwards.

One of the things I like best is that there are still good-hearted people who will continue to offer help, patterns, advice, instructions and tutorials without payment or acknowledgement.

Ray

Wow, Ray, that sounds so ... European. Maybe it sounded different writing it than it does reading it, but if you read your own post - that sounds like an artist to me.

I don't know any "design professionals", but I have known a few artists (though they didn't see it that way). One guy - Jim - would, given a piece of #2 pencil lead, a wad of toilet paper, and 45 minutes, draw a landscape so real you'd think you could walk into it, except you didn't need to cuz you were ALREADY IN IT. And Howard - aka "Curly" - could play a 6-string acoustic guitar all day and never use the same note twice (at least it seemed that way to me) and in my opinion should have abandoned that labor job for a concert hall.

I develop my point further ...Much has been said, and rightly so - about Mr. Al Stohlman. Al's books - there's some beautiful work in there. While I think Mr. S. had a legitimate desire to aid other crafters, the bottom line here is that Al made REALLY good money, for a long time, carving someone else's leather for discussion more than for practical use. Perhaps worth mentioning, he got paid BECAUSE the distributor knew they could make money by "subcontracting" Al's work (and disposition).

THEREFORE ... I think it's good for the guy who is learning to carve, bevel, and shade to use these "patterns" -- in the sense that you then have something to compare your work to. But I also believe that most are too "stuck" on the pattern ... I know it shows a V400, but use the 404 if you like that look, thus adhering to the principle with your own preference. Craftaids are a good example... I've known guys who had - well - I think ALL of them. Maybe they're collectors? Personally, craftaids are only beneficial if I have 10 of something to make, which rarely happens.

To your other point ... some folks are just rude. I used to have a bunch of these "my idea" things ... police say to forget it, my "ornate" doorknob precludes a good finger print. More than the money ($300 US for the new beveled glass in the door) is knowing that it will take hours and hours to replace them. Some of those books and tools probably found Ebay, but those designs and the computer back-up probably wasn't any good to anyone but me ... now THAT'S rude.

Personally, I LIKE to see other people using my ideas. Infrequently, it's like mine and I gained nothing. Usually, though, it's either not as good as mine (meaning I helped someone) or it's made better (meaning I haven't "arrived" yet and need to continue to improve), either of which is good for ME. Much of the time, I have customers who want to see a book so they can point and say I want that one

FOLKS,

if you need a picture of a horse - go to google search and type "horse pic", you'll have more than you know what to do with.

if you need a design, layout, construction that isn't readily available - show some consideration for the person who has it - may be payment, an exchange of ideas, or a simple thanx

keep in mind, that when someone helps you, it may be more in spite of you than because of you. I run the snow blower down the neighbor's sidewalk EVERY time it snows. He's a rude obnoxious jerk, and it's cold out there. I don't want to do his because I know he has 2 snow blowers but figures if he leaves it long enough I'll do it for him. He does say thanks when he sees me, but in the end he EXPECTS me to do it again next time. Perhaps one day he'll find out that it has nothing to do with him ... the mail lady who comes down our street is dating my buddy, and I clear most of the block FOR HER. Boy, does he get woke up when she gets a new route ...

But, it's wonderful to talk about helping each other, long as we all act like a bunch of kids in the school yard ... (No YOU go first, no YOU go first, No you... ) That said...DaCoda ... still have your address, send you some PRACTICAL stuff on Monday.

[JLSleather]

Oh, yeah ... one perhaps more concrete note: If I'm making a purse, at ALL, I am already copying SOMEONE ELSE'S idea.

Wallets and belts have already been invented. If I change the tooling, I'm still in someone else's business.

[jbird]

A very good topic, it seems somehow we have hashed over this about half dozen times, but let me say this and I know Ray he is a great guy and a good writer his post was very good and detailed, but for me there is no harm in asking for a pattern I think it helps grow the "craft" lets not go in to that deal.

I would say there are those hew don't give a dang about the craft they just want to save money there hackers, they have no talent no hope of gaining knowledge and further more they don't care.These are the folks I think should not be given any patterns or help, that having been said in my struggle to reach the top I have been helped by so many good people, Ray, Bruce Johnson, Luke hatley, Holly, kate, Mike (twin oaks) I was able to work out patterns with john bianchi A great guy. And now I make my own patterns I love working patterns and having the fulfillment of doing it my self. all that having been said if someone shows a real true desire for the skills and craft I will help all I can and they will understand that and thank you for it but a sure sign of a greedy person is no thanks at all just great I got it now get lost buddy. So I guess I am saying there are leaches and there are budding artisans I will help the later any time.

Josh

Edited January 30, 2010 by jbird

[Luke Hatley]

A very good topic, it seems somehow we have hashed over this about half dozen times, but let me say this and I know Ray he is a great guy and a good writer his post was very good and detailed, but for me there is no harm in asking for a pattern I think it helps grow the "craft" lets not go in to that deal.

I would say there are those hew don't give a dang about the craft they just want to save money there hackers, they have no talent no hope of gaining knowledge and further more they don't care.These are the folks I think should not be given any patterns or help, that having been said in my struggle to reach the top I have been helped by so many good people, Ray, Bruce Johnson, Luke hatley, Holly, kate, Mike (twin oaks) I was able to work out patterns with john bianchi A great guy. And now I make my own patterns I love working patterns and having the fulfillment of doing it my self. all that having been said if someone shows a real true desire for the skills and craft I will help all I can and they will understand that and thank you for it but a sure sign of a greedy person is no thanks at all just great I got it now get lost buddy. So I guess I am saying there are leaches and there are budding artisans I will help the later any time.

Josh

[JLSleather]

I agree, too. Hope I didn't say anything that made it sound otherwise.

[CitizenKate]

I use illustration software to develop my designs. That way I can adjust lines, play with shapes, move things around to see how they fit together, and so forth, without having to start over. Then when I think I have a workable design, I can print it, cut out the parts and use them for prototyping.

The program I use most of the time is Adobe Illustrator, but I also use Inkscape (which you can download for free), and it works just as well for my purposes.

Kate

[JLSleather]

Personal observations, tips, and a list of the tools to do it.

All in 3 lines.

[King's X]

Well say! There is very little in this world that hasn't been invented, so I say drove on.

I usually find things around me (in everyday land) that inspires me to create them in leather. It could be a fabric purse, wallet, handbag or widget. I always ask myself, "what would this look like in leather?" I will also see things that are made of leather and wonder how it would look like with a slight change here and there or sized down or a portion cut off here. For instance, I found a "sling-bag" or "man's bag" and thought to myself that I wanted to make something like that? I don't know why, it is still sitting in work area done? It just looked like a good design and came out too purdy to deploy.

I also look around the internet, books, magazine and such for other ideas? I believe that real artists call it "inspiration?"

The man bag that I completed is not called the Baird-Smith bag, not MY bag. Why? Because the design came from a F.O. Baird floral pattern and the saddlebag that I tweeked came from Jesse Smith (I did ask him for permission to bastardize his pattern, and he said okay, anytime!), even though it was eventually 'I' that did the work. Just because we see a picture does not me we steal the design. I believe that we 'steal' the concept and there is a difference. What we see as a picture is an idea of what we would to design and make.

But,

We have a crafter/artist/maker on this forum who posts something and says "here is my newest creation," but it is "copyrighted" or something like do not remake than we should honor such request. To go a little further, I believe it is 'our' duty to the rest of the member that had the honor to see this design to make the artist known if it is stolen and used by another person. It is our non-legal way of keep the battle lines even. We are the protectors of our craft/hobby/job/living.

Now, my final remark about 'stealing designs.' I don't believe that most crafters (not stealers) will take a product and copy it to the inifinate degree, but I do not believe it is possible. Hey, as much as I try, I cannot come close those swivel cuts, tool impressions or moreover the total outcome of the designs. But what I dislike the most is not given credit to those that may have simply posted it for us to have a chance to take it on.

I have a bunch of ideas & projects in a book that I carry. Eventually, they will become a reality, but way down the road and I will be willing to share every single one of the designs to be bastardized by all! As it stands, this is my hobby and as such, it is not my main bread winning job. Unfortunately, it take oh, about third seat in my life, so things are slow to getting around here. Eventually, I get them out for ALL to enjoy.

Here is my disclaimer. If you see what I have done, would like to do it the "way I did it?" Hell, go for it, but it would be nice to see my name around somewhere between the hello and the dyeing part.

Thanks.

[UKRay]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design theft is a thorny issue (any intellectual property theft is a serious business) but with a craft as old as leatherworking can anything truly be said to be original? I know my work springs from countless encounters with other artisan's and artist's work but most of the time I couldn't name them - and here on the forum we often don't know their real names anyway. It would be very hard, if not impossible, to acknowledge the debt.

A good point was made about Al Stohlman's work: "Al made REALLY good money, for a long time, carving someone else's leather for discussion more than for practical use". I can't help but agree, but it goes much further than that. What Al Stohlman did was facilitate a whole lot of learning and discussion. He designed projects that taught good design/project construction in a way that is still practical and effective. He was a brilliant teacher of leatherwork but his projects should not be seen as an end in themselves. IMHO they are simply a beginning and in some respects, (when followed rigidly without any personal input) I feel they have the ability to inhibit design rather than encourage it.

Josh, please don't misunderstand me. If everyone was like you fellah, I'd parcel up all my patterns and send them to every forum member (want 'em or not!). I've even been known to request the odd pattern myself if I felt I could learn from it and been very grateful if the originator chose to share. My gripe is with those who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes designing even small items - hey, we have had people asking for a wristband pattern (a strap?) and one guy even wanted a design for a basic key fob a while back. IMHO that is simply laziness and taking advantage of people's good nature - I could be wrong of course...

Given the tight financial constraints many of us face, would it be a good idea if there was an 'unwritten' value placed on pattern sharing? By this, I don't mean that everyone starts charging for sharing, more that people expect to pay for what they get. If a pattern is shared for nothing and the sharer is happy with that then great, but at a minimum the sharer's shipping costs should be covered. Most folk use PayPal these days - how much effort would it be to make a token $5 payment for the use of a really nice small pattern? What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Just my thoughts, guys, and, as ever, worth precisely what you paid for them.

Ray

[8thsinner]

I hear what your saying about other forum members there UKRAY.

Personally I have been busy cleaning up and doing more of my own designs. I have over two hundred products in the list and upto a dozen variations on some. So I have been pretty busy.

But the way I go about it is to look through a sceptical eye around me. I look at something walking down the street, say a shirt cut that I may or may not like, then I analyse why I like it, what it's good for, how it works, why it works, what other way it can work etc.

My medium is a notebook that I never go anywhere without, ever. And a Caran dache auto pencil. These are my most important tools, the pencil has never failed, it's easy to carry lead in my wallet, and I make and use my own notebooks. So I can show people who well they hold up after years of heavy abuse.

After I list the principles of application, weigh the pros and cons of differences in the little things like buttons versus snaps etc.

After this I go about drawing up variations in paper adjusting lines as I go. I have my own kinda short hand imaging system where thread, snaps, buttons, lace, edge lace etc all have their own key. It makes sense to me but not a lot of other people.

Once it's drawn out the way I want it takes a little longer to work up an actual pattern, and my note books often have finished ideas for years before they meet paper, much like my Hunting backpack thats been ready to fabric test for over a year now, but I have vowed to get this done by year end. I have kept putting it off for the shear magnitude of complexity that took three years to clean up. Least in theory.

Inspiration

I find my inspiration for little details all over the place.

I will walk through pound shops, craft shops,second hand shops, tools shops, art shops etc. Just trying to take in the way other people put things together, how buckles are attached, new types of buttons or just generally the way certain problems have been overcome. Doesn't matter what the product is, could be an oven plate or a luggage scale.

I don't do this to steal ideas, I do it so I am better rounded more knowledgable person in my choosen professional career.

If a new tool for example is on the market that does two jobs where I would normally use two tools, it obviously speaks more to me, but not just in it's apparant practical application but also in how someone else took a common order of production and created a tool to do both jobs one after the other.

It's the same way I look at the rest of life. I am an absolute B*****D to buy gifts for for this reason, and (my partner is sitting here shouting YES, DEFINATELY and poking at me) I will nit pick and tear the ideas of others apart reguardless of intent or sincerity of offering. Some might consider that a flaw in my character and I have insulted people before by actually being honest..But it is me, it's the way I think, and thats why I believe I am a good designer.

Saying that, the majority of my stuff is designed for practical purposes, when it comes to pure novelty or decorative items I am not that way minded simply put.

It's something I am working on.

[JLSleather]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design theft is a thorny issue

Stohlman ... facilitate a whole lot of learning and discussion. ... but his projects should not be seen as an end in themselves. .

What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Ray

At the risk of dragging this out, I wanted to give Ray an "attaboy", an "Amen" if you prefer. That in mind, here's my short [ish] take.

We all have some patterns. If it's YOURS, you can do what you like with it -- sell it, lease it, share it freely, throw it away. Suit yourself. If it's Al's, or Tandy's, or Walmart's, you can use it because you purchased the right to use it - for your own use, not for resale, and there are legal issues that could be raised from "disbursing" it, which - worst case - could involve you, the recipient, the LW site, and so on ... DON'T get me started on using pirated software to alter a few lines on someone's design ...

One last word about A.S. I learned MUCH from his instruction. Personally, I still prefer his series on leather cases. This is because Al went beyond the "here's a craftaid" or "cut the leather 7 x 7 1/4", to "here's how to make stuff to suit what you need". Wonderful.

And a pattern IS worth something. If it weren't, then why do we charge more for the "special order"? For ME, if I'm charging the customer for an "original" design, then I certainly can't complain about giving that fee to the designer if someone else came up with it. I would actually PREFER to know that my money helped someone who really needs it (as opposed to paying for the new paint striping in the leathercraft mall).

That said, in the end I can only speak for myself. I know more about leatherwork than copyright and patent law, and I prefer it that way. In the future, I may need and ask for a pattern. In that event, he who has the pattern is welcome to "shoot me a price" with no thought of offending me, and we'll take it from there.

[rdb]

This is a tough question. Starting off in leatherwork, very few have the artistic gift. Most will start with a tandy pattern, or try and copy something they may have seen somewhere. After a few articles are made, and the tools gotten used to, a person's imagination may lead them to coming up with their own pattern. A lot of times, I'll bet, a person can't quite figure out how someone else made something, and use their own method to assemble it. This can lead to an amateur look, but maybe even a brand new twist on something...

I really believe that a craftsman develops their own patterns over a whole series of "mistakes", or "not quite rights". Whether it's in my head, developed on a computer, cut out from posterboard, or straight into the leather cutting, the first thing made from an idea, can always be improved.

That's my biggest problem. I am never satisfied with a completed project.

Take for example, a simple zippo case. I've made at least a 1/2 dozen styles/types, and seen at least another dozen kinds from others. If one particular one sells for you, then you will probably stick with that as a pattern. In my case, I can't stop fiddling around with a new style. I would probably share the pattern to one I have made previously, but never the latest one.

I worked really hard developing a solo bag pattern that fits a soft tail, and some custom rigids, just right. I googled, of course, before I made the first one, and did not see a similar one. After I made and sold some, I did come across a similar one. The bike shape itself requires a certain fit, so the personal style I put to, it is the real difference, not so much the shape. Someone pm'd me for that pattern. They didn't get it. For anyone with a limited skill in leatherwork, though, they would be able to copy it from a picture (and I've already seen that happen). Someone with better skills than me, would make it better and improve on it, no doubt. At that point i believe it becomes theirs.

Copies are theft. Little changes are theft. Big Improvements to someone's patterns are something new. I believe that is the standard for copyright law, too. It's not just a simple change to someone's work. It's that, it is such an improvement, it becomes something new.

Certain things never change in their basics. A roper saddle is by definition a certain structure. It's purpose defines it. A saddler's approach to making it is the difference. The skill in its construction, brings out the oohs and ahhs.

A possibly simple example might be...Fold a single piece of leather over itself, stitch it, and you have a bic lighter case. Cut that same piece of leather into the shape of a boot, and you have a retail tandy type pattern. Shape that same piece of leather into, let's say, a motorcycle, or a windmill for that matter, and you have your own pattern. The keycase is still a keycase, but how many windmill keycases have you seen?

-just another snow day rambling.

-dave

[King's X]

Interesting RDB.......the law is a funky thing.

[jbird]

This topic has taken some interesting twists and turns.

Design Josh, please don't misunderstand me. If everyone was like you fellah, I'd parcel up all my patterns and send them to every forum member (want 'em or not!). I've even been known to request the odd pattern myself if I felt I could learn from it and been very grateful if the originator chose to share. My gripe is with those who can't be bothered to spend a few minutes designing even small items - hey, we have had people asking for a wristband pattern (a strap?) and one guy even wanted a design for a basic key fob a while back. IMHO that is simply laziness and taking advantage of people's good nature - I could be wrong of course...[/color]

Given the tight financial constraints many of us face, would it be a good idea if there was an 'unwritten' value placed on pattern sharing? By this, I don't mean that everyone starts charging for sharing, more that people expect to pay for what they get. If a pattern is shared for nothing and the sharer is happy with that then great, but at a minimum the sharer's shipping costs should be covered. Most folk use PayPal these days - how much effort would it be to make a token $5 payment for the use of a really nice small pattern? What about the help you could give someone who is unemployed but a great pattern designer if you paid them $30 for the use of a well designed purse pattern? How much difference would your $30 payment make to a family who are struggling?

Just my thoughts, guys, and, as ever, worth precisely what you paid for them.

Ray

Ray

I got you, none of my comments were headed your way sorry if it sound like they were.

I know that some folks in-fact a lot of them are honest good hearted people that i would love to share with

for instance I made an Elk skin shawl and I got a lot of response and folks wanted me to post it which I am will real soon got no issue with it, I drew it up and worked out the kinks and they folks asking were all good folks.I could not agree more that there are those that have no knowledge of design leather work or any other items that are connected there with, and yet there so darn lazy that they wont even try to make a design think about why it is what it is or how. and then they try to sale it, its crap from start to finish badly built badly finished crap! So that gives us a bad name a bad taste in peoples mouth. I will tell you I was not any good when I started i was very bad and I still have a lot to learn, but I was willing to study and learn and I never sold anything I couldn't say hay I am proud of that. and I have spent many hundreds of hours with out sleep and food pouring over books and thinking why and where and I have made a pretty good biz and I think I have the respect of my fellow leather artisans and friends here.So in recap if its just for you yes I will be happy to share and give help, if its for you to sell and make money you better by able to do it right or at least try thats all I ask put a little effort in to it. For my part I will never rest until I reach the top and that I don't think has ever been done, you can always get better.

Thank you all please don't take this the wrong way and if I stepped on you shout at me

Josh

[King's X]

JBird: "I love you man!"

[jbird]

JBird: "I love you man!"

Thanks Kings X,Right Back at you.

you know I am fan of your skills and good nature

Josh

[UKRay]

I really believe that a craftsman develops their own patterns over a whole series of "mistakes", or "not quite rights".

Copies are theft. Little changes are theft. Big Improvements to someone's patterns are something new. I believe that is the standard for copyright law, too. It's not just a simple change to someone's work. It's that, it is such an improvement, it becomes something new.

Whilst I agree entirely with what you say about the 'mistake school of learning', Dave, and I agree in principle with your observations about 'copyright law', it is hard to be 'cut and dried' with something as fundamentally practical as good leatherwork design.

We have all made a very small but significant change to an existing design and suddenly the design works properly. To the casual or uninformed observer, the design is identical but maybe a buckle is shifted by an inch so a strap becomes fully adjustable or perhaps the handle is moved to where the bag balances properly (think about something like a cue case which is long and thin and where good balance is essential).

When this happens I may have created a very similar item to everyone else, almost identical in fact, but mine works properly. Have I in effect, created something new? Is that a contravention of 'copyright law', in other words is it a simple change or is it a significant change?

I don't need answers to these hypothetical questions but it does make life more interesting thinking through the possible ramifications.

I'd be interested to know where people think we should draw lines...

Ray

[King's X]

Live within your means, artistical skills and remember to thanks those who have loaned you a hand as you progressed up your artistical ladder. In order words don't forget those you have passed up as you build on your skills and you will be able to sleep at night. There will always be those who will make every attempt to ruin what others have. And, there will always those who will not share what they have learned or know with anyone! For whatever reason, it is their choice. We must accept it even though we may not understand it.

JBird: I admire your choice to move into your skill full time. Your truly a cowboy at heart; rough, but always smooth! Glad to call you a friend.

I'm done, but thanks for allowing me to chime in.

[rdb]

Well, Ray, "whilst "I'm not a barrister, and I don't play one on tv...lol

but hypothetically or not, there is a real world out there off forum. There have been several times I remember off shore type people coming here and for nefarious reasons. It is inevitable that something that gets posted here may be copied or improved upon by someone else, not withstanding all the copyright mentions, watermarks, etc. In reality obtaining a patent is a long, difficult, and expensive proposition. Copyright can be as simple as listing it so, but expensive to litigate to stop someone. Personally I belief a great deal in the open source community. here are a few links to those discussions and rules:

http://questioncopyright.org/copyright_and_open_source

http://www.noadversary.org/open-source-copyright-and-social-justice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source

The awesomeness that is this forum, shows a willingness here to share more than just technique, even with that problem out there, and for that I am truly amazed, and thankful.

The more professional types on this board may not post everything publically, but I know they have shared with folks they've communicated with here, or trust and respect, through pms and emails. That goes beyond competition, and into the pure joy of the work.

I have NEVER, on any other forum found the people as giving and sharing as on this one. It says a lot about our community, and Johanna and crew deserve most of the credit for building such a place.

In this field, where a toolbag is a toolbag, and a saddle is a saddle, "Give credit where credit is due" should be our mantra.

[NoahL]

This has been a very interesting discussion to read through. I have to say that I have only ever shared one pattern, and it wasn't one I designed--it was just from a dismantled Blackberry holster--so I don't have any experience to really take part in this thread. I don't do too much with patterns myself--I do mostly belts and knife sheaths, and I don't do any Sheridan or any of those other fancy kinds of tooling you folks can do. Belts don't require a pattern, really--a hole template, perhaps--and sheaths have to be made to fit each knife, so while I do draw up a pattern for them, they aren't something that is going to be very likely to be used again, as most of the knives I make sheaths for are customs.

Now, that said, if I did have a pattern for something that would benefit others to have, rather than trying to slog through making their own, I would probably post it up here free of charge (not that I would mind the donation idea ).

~Noah

[TimDreamer]

A very interesting subject. Ya'll just keep blowing me away on this forum. Right now I'm at the stage of being a hobby leatherworker. I've got the basic tools (plus a few more to do Jim Linnell's Sunflower pattern on a Bible cover for my wife) and an old hobby that I did in my younger days that is itching again.

When I see all the neat things that ya'll are doing here.... holsters, belts, saddles, tack, sheaths, bike seats, garments, gaming boards and all the knick knacky cool stuff that people keep showing on the forums, I realize the gulf between what I can do compared to what the artists and artisians on this site do.

I realize that what I will do or want to do might be similar to someone else's on this site. I mean, how many ways is there to make a Bible cover is there? (I know, lots.... rhetorical question. :-P) But a book cover is basically the same. It is how the person tools it, sews it, laces it, lines it or does whatever with it that makes it theirs. I know that if I were to make something it would be one of a kind because I could try to duplicate it but I will never be able to make it the same no matter how much I tried. I might get close, but not going to happen. Same as if I were to try to imitate one of Mr. Parks or Mr. Johnson's rope cans. Even if they share their pattern with me, I couldn't without years and years of attempts even come close to their level of tooling and expertise.

As for JBird's elk skin shawl he mentioned in an earlier post. (I would still love a copy of the pattern, Josh... and as I think I said in your post about it a huge thank you in advance.) When I saw what he had done I thought that I might be able to duplicate something like that for my wife. I realize that I have an entire new skill set to learn to be able to accomplish something like that. Laying out a pattern on hides, learning how to sew garment leather and making buckskin fringe, plus buying a sewing machine that would handle garment grade leather. Will it be the same? I sure would hope so, it looked gorgeous and it would please me to be able to give my wife something like that.

Would it be neat to learn how to make garments out of skins? You bet. Would it be great to be able to make money doing it? You betcha. Doubt it's going to happen in the near future though. Who knows, maybe an old hobby could turn out to be a new career. Maybe this old dog can learn new tricks. Gonna be fun tryin'.

So if I make a newbie mistake and ask for something you don't want to give me cause I would like to try it out for myself, or you want to charge me for your hard work and intellectual property, please don't be offended if I don't buy because of limited funding or my lack of knowledge of where you stand. I will still love to admire your handiwork and pick up tips and tooling tricks to improve what I can do, along with fellowship with like minded individuals.

Tim Dotson

[UKRay]

JLSleather makes a great point when he said "a pattern IS worth something. If it weren't, then why do we charge more for the "special order"? For ME, if I'm charging the customer for an "original" design, then I certainly can't complain about giving that fee to the designer if someone else came up with it. I would actually PREFER to know that my money helped someone who really needs it"

Noah says he is happy to give his work away, but places a value on his designs when he admits he wouldn't mind a donation for the use of his patterns.

Dave said: "I worked really hard developing a solo bag pattern that fits a soft tail, and some custom rigids, just right. I googled, of course, before I made the first one, and did not see a similar one. After I made and sold some, I did come across a similar one. The bike shape itself requires a certain fit, so the personal style I put to, it is the real difference, not so much the shape. Someone pm'd me for that pattern. They didn't get it." which suggests he put a considerable value on that design.

Personally, I'm happy to share some of my designs with people - I have sent out quite a number of stool patterns and purse patterns etc - but I have some designs that I won't share. This is because they have a value to me that is not necessarily about money. It is often because the patterns I value the most are those I had to work hardest to perfect.

King's X is quite right when he says: "There will always those who will not share what they have learned or know with anyone! For whatever reason, it is their choice. We must accept it even though we may not understand it."

Many people new to leatherworking don't understand why their projects don't turn out like the ones they see in the magazine images. How hard can it be to work a bit of leather? IMHO, the reason they don't understand is because they don't know enough.

A wise man once said: When you know a little you think you know a lot. When you know a lot you understand how little you know.

Understanding why people are 'precious' with their designs needs to take into account that making a good pattern needs more than skill with a pencil, It requires years of working with leather to know what it is capable of in order to understand how it can be shaped, moulded, cut and formed into the finished article. It used to be called an apprentiship when I was a lad...

Tim makes a good point too when he says that he wants to learn but can't always afford to pay.

"If I make a newbie mistake and ask for something you don't want to give me cause I would like to try it out for myself, or you want to charge me for your hard work and intellectual property, please don't be offended if I don't buy because of limited funding or my lack of knowledge of where you stand. I will still love to admire your handiwork and pick up tips and tooling tricks to improve what I can do, along with fellowship with like minded individuals."

Tim, with an approach like that you can knock on my door any time and ask whatever you like of me and I'll be glad to help you if I can, LOL - it would be a pleasure to help you and I suspect most of the folk here will feel the same way.

Ray

[jbird]

Amen, Sir!

Edited March 10, 2010 by UKRay