Product Design

[rdb]

Well, Ray, "whilst "I'm not a barrister, and I don't play one on tv...lol

but hypothetically or not, there is a real world out there off forum. There have been several times I remember off shore type people coming here and for nefarious reasons. It is inevitable that something that gets posted here may be copied or improved upon by someone else, not withstanding all the copyright mentions, watermarks, etc. In reality obtaining a patent is a long, difficult, and expensive proposition. Copyright can be as simple as listing it so, but expensive to litigate to stop someone. Personally I belief a great deal in the open source community. here are a few links to those discussions and rules:

http://questioncopyright.org/copyright_and_open_source

http://www.noadversary.org/open-source-copyright-and-social-justice

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_source

The awesomeness that is this forum, shows a willingness here to share more than just technique, even with that problem out there, and for that I am truly amazed, and thankful.

The more professional types on this board may not post everything publically, but I know they have shared with folks they've communicated with here, or trust and respect, through pms and emails. That goes beyond competition, and into the pure joy of the work.

I have NEVER, on any other forum found the people as giving and sharing as on this one. It says a lot about our community, and Johanna and crew deserve most of the credit for building such a place.

In this field, where a toolbag is a toolbag, and a saddle is a saddle, "Give credit where credit is due" should be our mantra.

[NoahL]

This has been a very interesting discussion to read through. I have to say that I have only ever shared one pattern, and it wasn't one I designed--it was just from a dismantled Blackberry holster--so I don't have any experience to really take part in this thread. I don't do too much with patterns myself--I do mostly belts and knife sheaths, and I don't do any Sheridan or any of those other fancy kinds of tooling you folks can do. Belts don't require a pattern, really--a hole template, perhaps--and sheaths have to be made to fit each knife, so while I do draw up a pattern for them, they aren't something that is going to be very likely to be used again, as most of the knives I make sheaths for are customs.

Now, that said, if I did have a pattern for something that would benefit others to have, rather than trying to slog through making their own, I would probably post it up here free of charge (not that I would mind the donation idea ).

~Noah

[TimDreamer]

A very interesting subject. Ya'll just keep blowing me away on this forum. Right now I'm at the stage of being a hobby leatherworker. I've got the basic tools (plus a few more to do Jim Linnell's Sunflower pattern on a Bible cover for my wife) and an old hobby that I did in my younger days that is itching again.

When I see all the neat things that ya'll are doing here.... holsters, belts, saddles, tack, sheaths, bike seats, garments, gaming boards and all the knick knacky cool stuff that people keep showing on the forums, I realize the gulf between what I can do compared to what the artists and artisians on this site do.

I realize that what I will do or want to do might be similar to someone else's on this site. I mean, how many ways is there to make a Bible cover is there? (I know, lots.... rhetorical question. :-P) But a book cover is basically the same. It is how the person tools it, sews it, laces it, lines it or does whatever with it that makes it theirs. I know that if I were to make something it would be one of a kind because I could try to duplicate it but I will never be able to make it the same no matter how much I tried. I might get close, but not going to happen. Same as if I were to try to imitate one of Mr. Parks or Mr. Johnson's rope cans. Even if they share their pattern with me, I couldn't without years and years of attempts even come close to their level of tooling and expertise.

As for JBird's elk skin shawl he mentioned in an earlier post. (I would still love a copy of the pattern, Josh... and as I think I said in your post about it a huge thank you in advance.) When I saw what he had done I thought that I might be able to duplicate something like that for my wife. I realize that I have an entire new skill set to learn to be able to accomplish something like that. Laying out a pattern on hides, learning how to sew garment leather and making buckskin fringe, plus buying a sewing machine that would handle garment grade leather. Will it be the same? I sure would hope so, it looked gorgeous and it would please me to be able to give my wife something like that.

Would it be neat to learn how to make garments out of skins? You bet. Would it be great to be able to make money doing it? You betcha. Doubt it's going to happen in the near future though. Who knows, maybe an old hobby could turn out to be a new career. Maybe this old dog can learn new tricks. Gonna be fun tryin'.

So if I make a newbie mistake and ask for something you don't want to give me cause I would like to try it out for myself, or you want to charge me for your hard work and intellectual property, please don't be offended if I don't buy because of limited funding or my lack of knowledge of where you stand. I will still love to admire your handiwork and pick up tips and tooling tricks to improve what I can do, along with fellowship with like minded individuals.

Tim Dotson

[UKRay]

JLSleather makes a great point when he said "a pattern IS worth something. If it weren't, then why do we charge more for the "special order"? For ME, if I'm charging the customer for an "original" design, then I certainly can't complain about giving that fee to the designer if someone else came up with it. I would actually PREFER to know that my money helped someone who really needs it"

Noah says he is happy to give his work away, but places a value on his designs when he admits he wouldn't mind a donation for the use of his patterns.

Dave said: "I worked really hard developing a solo bag pattern that fits a soft tail, and some custom rigids, just right. I googled, of course, before I made the first one, and did not see a similar one. After I made and sold some, I did come across a similar one. The bike shape itself requires a certain fit, so the personal style I put to, it is the real difference, not so much the shape. Someone pm'd me for that pattern. They didn't get it." which suggests he put a considerable value on that design.

Personally, I'm happy to share some of my designs with people - I have sent out quite a number of stool patterns and purse patterns etc - but I have some designs that I won't share. This is because they have a value to me that is not necessarily about money. It is often because the patterns I value the most are those I had to work hardest to perfect.

King's X is quite right when he says: "There will always those who will not share what they have learned or know with anyone! For whatever reason, it is their choice. We must accept it even though we may not understand it."

Many people new to leatherworking don't understand why their projects don't turn out like the ones they see in the magazine images. How hard can it be to work a bit of leather? IMHO, the reason they don't understand is because they don't know enough.

A wise man once said: When you know a little you think you know a lot. When you know a lot you understand how little you know.

Understanding why people are 'precious' with their designs needs to take into account that making a good pattern needs more than skill with a pencil, It requires years of working with leather to know what it is capable of in order to understand how it can be shaped, moulded, cut and formed into the finished article. It used to be called an apprentiship when I was a lad...

Tim makes a good point too when he says that he wants to learn but can't always afford to pay.

"If I make a newbie mistake and ask for something you don't want to give me cause I would like to try it out for myself, or you want to charge me for your hard work and intellectual property, please don't be offended if I don't buy because of limited funding or my lack of knowledge of where you stand. I will still love to admire your handiwork and pick up tips and tooling tricks to improve what I can do, along with fellowship with like minded individuals."

Tim, with an approach like that you can knock on my door any time and ask whatever you like of me and I'll be glad to help you if I can, LOL - it would be a pleasure to help you and I suspect most of the folk here will feel the same way.

Ray

[jbird]

Amen, Sir!

Edited March 10, 2010 by UKRay