Clicker Die - Versatility In The Pattern

[particle]

I read somewhere - I think it was on a description of the Bianchi dvd that he talks about how to get more than one gun out of a particular pattern - my guess would be slightly oversizing it to fit 2 or 3 guns slightly smaller than the largest of the bunch. Did that make any sense at all?

Anyway, one of my hesitations with getting a clicker press is that I'd have to guy a die for each holster style, and each gun that I make a holster for. But, reading Bianchi's description got me to thinking.

While I can't get a die that works with all the 1911 patterns (due to the length), I could probably get one that worked with a 3" 1911, Kahr P9, and maybe a couple other similar size/shape guns, and then simply tweak the stitch line to fit the actual gun. In the case of a 5" 1911, I could probably cut the pattern with the 5" die, then trim down the excess to fit the 3" gun - the hardest part of cutting the pattern is around the top sweat shield anyway.

Can anyone provide any insight into this approach? Can you really get 2+ different guns out of any one clicker die?

[BigRiverLeather]

Can anyone provide any insight into this approach? Can you really get 2+ different guns out of any one clicker die?

I can't provide you with any first hand insight, But I can tell you that I'm sure you would be able to use the same die for many different guns. I'll bet for glock you could get by with about 4 dies, Many Sig's have very similar dimensions. In fact, I ordered a P250c mold from Rings that is taking quite a while and I had a deadline for the holster. I obtained a spreadsheet that lists the dimensions of Most Sigs (rediculously detailed with a micrometer), asked for some picture comparisons on www.sigforum.com (I'm ironguy) and deduced that my P220 Carry looks to be almost the same as the P250 with the exception of the rear of the slide and grip which I just left a bit over sized. The mold should show up to day and I just have to finish it off. I will also be able to put a Sig P229, P228,, P245 H&K P2000 and many more I'm sure. the biggest difference will mostly lie in the sweat shield which can easily be trimmed.

I'd have to see a lot of business and be doing this full time plus to consider a clicker die. They will run over a couple grand, won't they? I suppose a guy (or gal:D) could use a hyd press from Harbor Freight.

I'm also not sure how I would have the dies made, any inside info on that?

[particle]

I can't provide you with any first hand insight, But I can tell you that I'm sure you would be able to use the same die for many different guns. I'll bet for glock you could get by with about 4 dies, Many Sig's have very similar dimensions. In fact, I ordered a P250c mold from Rings that is taking quite a while and I had a deadline for the holster. I obtained a spreadsheet that lists the dimensions of Most Sigs (rediculously detailed with a micrometer), asked for some picture comparisons on www.sigforum.com (I'm ironguy) and deduced that my P220 Carry looks to be almost the same as the P250 with the exception of the rear of the slide and grip which I just left a bit over sized. The mold should show up to day and I just have to finish it off. I will also be able to put a Sig P229, P228,, P245 H&K P2000 and many more I'm sure. the biggest difference will mostly lie in the sweat shield which can easily be trimmed.

I'd have to see a lot of business and be doing this full time plus to consider a clicker die. They will run over a couple grand, won't they? I suppose a guy (or gal:D) could use a hyd press from Harbor Freight.

I'm also not sure how I would have the dies made, any inside info on that?

The Tippmann clicker press is about $1,600, and the dies -not sure how much they cost but I'm guessing at least $50. You can get the dies from Tippmann, but I'm not sure who else. I tossed around the idea of buying the press from Weaver- the manual hydraulic version. It's much cheaper. My dad offered to contribute some funds to help get me rolling with a press, but I'm not sure I'm ready to pull the trigger yet. It doesn't take too long to cut the pattern with the round knife.

[Denster]

Easy way to find out what clicker dies would run. Just fax a dimensional diagram to Weaver or Texas Custom Dies and they will shoot you a quote. $50 is a bit on the low side I'm guessing between $70 and $120 per die depending on complexity. Jeff fromBoomstick holsters uses his hydraulic forming press to click parts.

My personal thoughts are that if I had a huge order for the same type holster I might buy the die and pay Weaver to click the parts for me. As to using the same die for different holsters if you have to do much trimming might as well just cut it out from the start. It would take a long while to amortize the cost of a press and dies for a three or four minute time savings per pattern.

[ps0303]

Somewhere on this board is a thread from a person that made their own homemade clicker dies. I recall some of the info, wood for the form and then banding steal sharpened and attached to the wood. I thought it was pretty interesting.

[Lobo]

Particle:

I have watched your posts, and I have seen your video. You are doing first-class work. You are also looking at holster-making as a business, which is all good.

I started making holsters in 1972, and it was a nice little part-time thing for many years. In 2008 I finally bought a sewing machine; before that I sewed everything by hand.

I still cut every piece by hand, assemble everything by hand, form everything by hand, and finish everything by hand. I have never used a clicker die, and probably never will. I have never used a holster press, and never expect to.

Last week I completed and shipped 42 items (31 holsters, 5 belts, and 6 pouches). I spent about 28 hours in the shop to complete those items, plus about 15 hours on-line keeping up with my website, orders, and customer inquiries.

I now have orders in hand for about 150 items, plus restocking several retail stores that carry my products.

I have no plans to put in a press or to buy clicker dyes. I will continue cutting each piece by hand.

I will admit that I am struggling to find a little time to develop a new product idea that has been burning a hole in my head for several months. Last year I introduced two new products, and those have been very well received by my customers, so I have every reason to believe that this new product will do well. As I find time I will make that happen.

My point is this: We can work hard or we can work smart. For me, working smart involves production of multiple like-kind items in batches. This minimizes time requirements for workspace set-up, tool set-up, and clean-up time. I cut 8 to 12 patterns at a time, then assemble those, then sew those, then form and finish those. While that batch is drying I repeat the process. Today was a "pouch day". I made up 7 speedloader pouches and 4 magazine pouches before I went to the club to play poker and drink beer for a few hours before dinner.

My power tools are these: a sewing machine (since late-2008), a drill press, a belt sander, and a drum sander. I also like to have a radio going in the background to keep my mind occupied, and a refrigerator to keep the beer cold.

I am a great-grandfather (of one), grandfather of nine, and a retired cop. I'm working in a 300 sq. ft. production shop. I expect to complete at least 2000 items this year without clicker dies or presses. Before I consider a press or clicker dies I will be looking at a little larger facility and, perhaps, hiring an apprentice to do some of the grunt work (so I can play more poker and drink more beer).

I wish you nothing but the best, sir. I suggest that the best may not include fancy equipment and time-saving devices. I don't think either are necessary to keep your customers happy with your products.

Best regards.

[particle]

Thank you Lobo for your response - it is greatly appreciated. I'm (obviously) pretty new to all of this, and had never thought about making any particular pattern work with several guns. It's pretty obvious to me now, but I had always planned on having a file cabinet full of patterns - one pattern per gun, per style, etc. I had never really given much thought to buying a clicker press (because of the cost, and the amount of dies I'd have to buy). You're most certainly right - it doesn't take long to cut a pattern by hand, and it would take a really long time to cover the cost of a press and the related dies. Hearing the amount of stuff you're outputting without a press certainly puts the mind at ease regarding the "need" to buy one. I'll tell my dad to buy some more leather and blue guns instead of a press... Thank you again sir for your response.

Edited February 23, 2010 by particle

[K-Man]

I've followed your thread about your interest in a clicker.

A clicker does a number of things. First, and foremost, it cuts out a consistent pattern every time. Second, it does save you a huge amount of time. Clicking out a pattern takes about 10-20 seconds versus 10-20 minutes drawing/tracing a pattern and cutting it out by hand. You can use one holster/clicker pattern for a number of guns - to a certain extent. If you have a pattern that works/fits for an XD with respect to sizing, it should work for a number of similiar-sized guns. The only thing you're really going to change then is the location/line of stitching for the particular gun frame. For example, I use the same holster clicker cutout for a 3", 3.5", 4.0", and 4.25" 1911. I just trim off the excess on the bottom - that normally takes less than a minute. And I use that same clicker pattern for similar-sized guns.

With respect to the Tippmann clicker that you referred to, I assume you're talking about the 7-ton version. I have the 15-ton version. I also had the 7-ton version for about a year. The 7-ton version struggled with cutting through 7/8 oz leather. I had to end up just sticking the edge of the clicker die under the press and cutting a small section of the die at a time. I ended up getting rid of it. With the 15-ton, it's done in one press/swoop. I've even cut saddle skirting on it without a problem. I've had the 15-ton for 6 years now and have never had a problem with it. The only real issue with it is it's so dang heavy. We use an engine lift and a chain to move it around when we need to. I've only moved it twice in the last 3 years. In any event, I believe you would be dissatisfied with the 7-ton version in fairly short order.

With respect to the clicker dies, you generally pay by the linear inch. I have had all of my clicker dies made by Tippmann over the last 6 years - nearly 200 dies. I'm yet to have to sharpen one. A few of those dies have cut out over 2000 holsters each. An average cost for an IWB or OWB sized die is $60-$65. The largest impact on the cost of a die is really how many bends and how sharp of a bend there is in the pattern. Tippmann has one of the quickest turnaround times as well. If I need a hand-held die cut out, then I go to Texas Die. But for regular clicker dies, I use Tippmann. Also, out of those ~200 dies, I've only had to send one back. It was for a belt end. The adjustment hole alignment was off on one of the holes. I sent it back and had a new one in approximately a week.

Another time saver built in with the use of clicker dies becomes apparent when it's time to finish your edges. Because of the consistency of the pattern gained by the use of the die(s), that means your edges are going to line up where they need to. You're not having to make minor adjustment cuts or have excess leather hanging over the edge or have ragged cuts. You're not having to spend the extra time smoothing those cuts to get them into shape and ultimately to the point of finish. Also, how many times have you slipped with the knife cut when cutting out your patterns? You end up in some instances having to start over with the cutting out of a new pattern.

Let me give you an example of how much time can be saved with the use of a clicker die. We had an order for 60 holsters - same pattern. It took us right at an hour and a half to click/cut those patterns out. There were two pieces - the main body of the holster and a layover/reinforcement piece - so 120 pieces total. I'd like to see you, or any of these holster makers on this forum, try to match quantity/time/consistency by cutting that many pieces out by hand with a knife. It would take nearly all day to do nothing but that.

The time saved by using clicker dies can then be turned into whatever you want. It could be making additional holsters, designing new holsters, or doing something totally different or aside from making holsters.

If you don't want to invest in a clicker machine, then you should at least consider in having the dies made and having someone who has a machine cut them out for you. I've often done that. A person will have the die made, send it to me, and also have the leather they want used sent to us, and we cut out the pattern. We then mail to them however many they wanted. In most instances, it's a very modest cost of service to do that.

You can take my comments here as a bunch of bunk, but I base them on my experience of having cut out patterns by hand (which I still do on occasion for custom work) and cutting out patterns using the clicker die(s).

[JeffGC]

Yesterday, I received my first two clicker dies from Tippmann. I have a 12 ton floor press that I'm using for diecutting and holster forming. For diecutting, I purchased two 1/2" Blanchard ground steel plates. For forming I have two pieces of 1" gum rubber mounted on 1/2" aluminum plates. I'm cutting against a poly board.

Last night I tested the clicker dies on 8 oz. leather. Wow. You work the handle on the hydraulic ram, hear a couple of pops and there's the part. It only takes a few seconds to cut each part. The dies were $55 and $65.

Both of these dies are for pocket holsters where the front and back parts are mirror images; i.e., both can be cut with the same die by just flipping the leather over. The quality of the cut, when the flesh side is down, is just about perfect. When cutting with the flesh side up, I notice a few crinkles or coining around the edge of the leather, on the finish side. Can any of you suggest what I can do to avoid this?

Jeff

[particle]

Thank you K-Man for your input. With all due respect, It sounds like you have a pretty large operation with a great deal of output and holster-making is your fill-time job. A press and related dies is a pretty obvious need in such a large operation.

I don't think anyone is saying you absolutely don't need a press - but, at what point do you personally feel it really become worth the significant investment in money and storage space? 5 holsters a week? 50 a week?

I'm not discounting your comments at all - but there has to be a line somewhere as to when one might justify such a purchase. That line is in a different spot for each of us, and much of it depends on our time available to devote to the operation (hobby?). I still hold down a full-time job from 8-5, have a side CAD drafting job that randomly gives me work in the evenings, and 3 small children. When I can, I try to make time to work on holsters. Some day I'd like to make holsters full-time, but private insurance is dang hard to get these days.

[Denster]

Both Lobo and K-Man make excellent points comming at the situation from different perspectives. Both make attractive, serviceable holsters and accessories. Lobo's is a retirement business and I would guess that he has about reached the limit of what he can do and still leave time for the important things (beer and poker) without taking on help. Considering the exposure I see him getting on some of the forums that may be in the near future.

Kevin is aggressively growing an allready (deservedly) successful business and probably ships at least 10 times Lobo's volume per week. For him automation is a must and the cost of dies and a clicker would be quickly amortized vs salary+benefits+workman's comp etc.

I would guess it depends on your volume of business and where you want to go with it. For myself I can make 20 to 25 holsters per week in the time I want to work. I don't ever want or need to be larger than that. So my perspective is different. Also I'm always tweaking designs or doing somethng different not a situation where a clicker or dies would be useful.

[K-Man]

Particle:

Yes, it is a full-time job for me. But at the time I purchased the clicker, my sales/work load was much less. However, I recognized, more accurately - envisioned, the growth. At the time I got the clicker, I was only doing 1/10th of what I'm doing now. The size of my operation for employees is two - myself and my wife. You have to decide what you want to do and where you want to go/what level you want to take the holster-making to. All I can do is tell you what the benefits are, or not, with using the different clickers and other machinery that I have experience with. The equipment choices make a huge difference in the quality of the product.

The purchase of a clicker is one of the larger $$ purchases you'll encounter as you go along. If you're considering one, consider the long term commitment it will also take to make it pay off. I derive great benefit from mine because I also use it to cut out other patterns - not just holsters. I've got a wide assortment of other dies - from knife sheaths to dog collars to saddle bags to purses to rifle slings to quivers to coasters to dog muzzles to spur straps. Holsters and related accessories are only one segment of what I make/offer.

Shop around for the clickers - look on eBay, Craig's List, whatever other equipment sale places that are local to you. I recently saw a 15-ton Tippmann clicker on eBay for $1800. Regular price for that is ~$3000. The company I'm partnering with in the manufacturing of our holsters just bought a 20-ton, swing arm, clicker for $400 off of Craig's List.

With respect to the dies, you'd be wise to not order a die for a design right at the get-go. There's generally a period of time where you're tweaking the design to some extent. Once you've got it worked out, then order the die. As you gain experience, you'll probably find that there will be less and less tweaking needed.

Since you're starting out, again, give serious consideration to having someone "click" out the patterns for you. That would save you even more time. The cost to do that is generally going to be minimal. It would take you a fair amount of time I suspect to spend the comparable amount of ~$2000 that you would spend on a decent clicker. In the meantime, you can see if the amount of growth (that you're hopefully experiencing) justifies spending that $2000 - $3000 for your own clicker.

I don't discount the concerns/issues you have in deciding when to cross the line into a higher level of operation. I know insurance, for example, is a huge expense. I'm retired from the USN, so I'm fortunate from the perspective of insurance costs. BTW, in the time I save by using a clicker, and other machinery, I spend it now making custom acoustic guitars and custom gun grips.