Assembled The Cuirass

[hivemind]

Thanks much for the thoughts and I would love to see pics of your work.

Sure:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=22633

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=22285

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=20844

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21672

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=21509

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=18823

Enjoy!

[Eldorado]

Sure:

http://leatherworker...showtopic=22633

http://leatherworker...showtopic=22285

http://leatherworker...showtopic=20844

http://leatherworker...showtopic=21672

http://leatherworker...showtopic=21509

http://leatherworker...showtopic=18823

Enjoy!

Wow, quite nice. I recognize some of these from having perused this site. I remember being envious at the time.

Thinking about them, I particularly liked the use of the pear shader for the teeth on the mask. It gives it an extra creepy look.

Did you use brass hinges on the lorica? or are the chest bits something else? I like adding brass hardware to things, but am frustrated in finding a source.

Finally, did the finished arm and leg pieces have the flexibility you wanted? I am concerned that I am overengineering (so far only in my mind) the articulation joints of the arm armor I am planning and wonder if your use of copper rivets gave you the result you wanted.

Eldorado

[hivemind]

The hinges on the lorica are brass hinges from Home Depot. Yes, really.

The legs and the arms are pretty close to perfect - no complaints. I think the extra washers and not peening down the rivets tightly worked well.

[Peter Ellis]

Current thought on leather armor from the history of Europe goes like this: there are thousands of examples of leather belts, shoes, pouches, tack, vests, and other leather products found all over archaeological sites throughout Europe and the Mediterranean. However, not one single example of leather armor has ever been found at sites of battles, stongholds, armories, burial mounds and graves, or anywhere else. The only leather armor that's been found are padded jacks that were worn under maille, and a few kid-sized stuff that was obviously made as a toy for children.

That's it. Leather armor is an invention of Dungeons & Dragons and fantasy literature. Don't get me wrong, I love leather armor. I wear it when I fight and make a lot of it. But don't kid yourself - what you're making is "historically styled", not "historically accurate".

Ug, sorry about the rant...

I'm sorry to have to say that you are factually incorrect, but glad to be able to say that, in fact, there are surviving pieces of leather armour. Not a great many, but a significant number and quite enough to prove that the statement "not one single example of leather armour has ever been found" is simply not true.

Leather armour is historically correct for certain times and places, in and outside of Europe.

In addition to actual surviving examples, there are lots of written records that make mention of items such as "curies" which were a leather plate used to reinforce the chest area on a mail hauberk.

Leather armour is not a fantasy creation, it doesn't come from D&D.

But, we really don't have a very good handle on how they made it, what kind of leather they made it from, how they treated it, etc. There's another term that is a clue, but probably a misleading one "cuir bouille" - literally boiled leather, which is where the misleading part comes in. Yet it's pretty clear that they were treating leather to harden it. Modern experimentation and research has learned quite a few things about how to do this - but no one has found a medieval treatise explaining how they did it

[hivemind]

Can you cite sources for the use of leather armor in Europe? The circles I move in don't seem to be able to provide such facts.

[hivemind]

Well, I guess I'll play my own devil's advocate...

Brian R. Price's Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction says on page 9 that as early as the 13th century tournament combats were being fought in "armour of polymerized leather (cuirboille)". He cites references of John W. Waterer's Leather and the Warrior, Museum of Leathercraft, Northampton, 1966 and S. Lysons' Archeologia, first series XVII (1814), pp. 302-305.

I don't have those, so can't verify the veracity of them, but the second one seems to be based on primary research. Anyone have a copy of Waterer's book?

[Eldorado]

Well, I guess I'll play my own devil's advocate...

Brian R. Price's Techniques of Medieval Armour Reproduction says on page 9 that as early as the 13th century tournament combats were being fought in "armour of polymerized leather (cuirboille)". He cites references of John W. Waterer's Leather and the Warrior, Museum of Leathercraft, Northampton, 1966 and S. Lysons' Archeologia, first series XVII (1814), pp. 302-305.

I don't have those, so can't verify the veracity of them, but the second one seems to be based on primary research. Anyone have a copy of Waterer's book?

Unfortunately, not I.

[MissingLink]

I have a copy or Mr. Waterer's book. There are some references to cuir bouilli armors from the Middle Ages. On p74, he states "in the accounts of the Windsor Tournament in 1278 we find that the thirty-eight cuirasses of cuir bouilli were made by Milo the Currier". There are also several references to effigies showing detailed designs on armor pieces prior to the time when iron armor was heavily decorated, though he does state that there is no way to confirm that these are leather from the effigy.

[Eldorado]

I have a copy or Mr. Waterer's book. There are some references to cuir bouilli armors from the Middle Ages. On p74, he states "in the accounts of the Windsor Tournament in 1278 we find that the thirty-eight cuirasses of cuir bouilli were made by Milo the Currier". There are also several references to effigies showing detailed designs on armor pieces prior to the time when iron armor was heavily decorated, though he does state that there is no way to confirm that these are leather from the effigy.

Hurray for Milo the Currier! He has validated all my many hours of work. *wink*

Certainly would be cool to see what the 38 cuirasses looked like and how they were made. I found reference to the 38 sets of armor provided for the chevaliers at this Tourney (they apparently couldnt bring their own) at The Tournament: Its Periods and Phases By R. Coltman Clephan, Charles Ffoulkes - viewable at this link - http://books.google.com/books?id=5-J-aUiA0XwC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=Windsor+Tournament+1278&source=bl&ots=nZMS8zDb2S&sig=_xO55OAyKqT7YZ-17vQE5hsVLlI&hl=en&ei=m1-_S5zqBYXfnAfQ4_D9CQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CBIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Windsor%20Tournament%201278&f=false

Unfortunately, a further check of the Windsor Tournament of 1278 reveals some interesting contextual information. At this website, http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/tournament-medieval-/jousters.html the Windsor Tourney is characterized as a low-impact attempt at decreasing the intensity of the bloodshed that had begun to take root in the competition circles of the day. Similar, it appears, to adding the "Roughing the Passer" rule to American football. You'll note in this text, as well, that there were rules added to try and control 13th century British Soccer Hooligans. I guess the Brits have always been had this problem. Apparently, the leather was just a part of decreasing the deadliness of the weapons (whalebone) and backing off the protection of the armor to cut down on "unsportsman like conduct." As a result, or to help ensure it, this tourney has come to be known as the Jousts for Peace.

While this information actually validates, to a small extent, my original suggestion that lords might wear a lighter, more flexible form of armor to the faire or out-on-the town -- to show perhaps that they are still boss while remaining protected from the knives of cutpurses -- it doesn't in anyway suggest that they used this armor for warfare. Since, that wasnt my original supposition, I'm not bothered by it. But, the argument remains standing (though perhaps with a slight wobble) that the D&D leather armor (studded or not) doesnt reflect reality.

I might point out though, that no one said D&D leather armor had to be much more than a leather horseman's jack (essentially the motorcycle leathers of the time). The armor class it imparted (witness my geekyness), wasn't worth much more than that anyway.

Eldorado

[yan]

While searching for hirtoricaly accurate leather armor I found a lot of reference (and a couple of picture) of leather gambison (or jack).

But since I was searching for a cuirasse in cuir bouilli (I did'nt found any picture of one that was found in a archeological dig, yet)

I did'nt note those reference.

But a padded leather vest would offer a good protection in a ''sporting event''.