Holster Sewing Machines - Lets Talk

[Mongo]

I started with a Boss. I've had a Cobra class 4 for 7 months now. The Cobra is a far easier machine to use; the Boss is sitting in the corner collecting dust. It was a hard decision to spend the money on the Cobra, but I am far happy with that investment than the $1400 I spent on the Boss.

[Denster]

I started with a Boss. I've had a Cobra class 4 for 7 months now. The Cobra is a far easier machine to use; the Boss is sitting in the corner collecting dust. It was a hard decision to spend the money on the Cobra, but I am far happy with that investment than the $1400 I spent on the Boss.

I'll give you $600 plus shipping for that old dust collector and you won't have to look at it any more.

[rickybobby]

We (John Bianchi and I) just finished our Holster and Gunbelt workshop in Wickenburg last month. We asked Steve if he would let us use 2 of his machines during the class. We used a Class 3 and a Class 4. Both with the needle positioner. They both performed flawlessly.

If you are at all serious about making professional looking goods a quality machine is the only way to go. If you start with a Boss, you will outgrow it soon and have a hard time getting your money back out of it.

The finest stitchers in the world are now less expensive than they have ever been. The return on investment is incredibly good right now.

If I were in the market for another machine now, the Cobra 4 with the needle positioner would be the way I'd go. The extra arm length is super handy when stitching on cartridge loops for western belts.

Matt,

You guys are what the rest of us strive to achieve in this business, your work and knowledge are unquestionable, it is the best. But this gentleman is a beginner (without knowing for sure he will make it a profession) and may have not ever used an powered machine, he is on a budget and wants to step up to the next level. A machine such as the Cobra is a Rolls Royce to use but, for the hobbyist it may be to big of a jump.

You are correct, the return on investment is the best it ever has been, the machines are less now than years ago thanks to competition in the market. I have sold the original Boss I bought as a hobbyist within hours of posting it (I wish I had more) I have a list of people hopeing the deal will fall through so they have a chance at it because they called me and hour after the second person I talked to bought it.

Actually what I was refering to was a needle and awl machine like the union lockstitch where the back looks every bit as nice as the front.

I meant nothing disparaging towards John or Matt. For the work John currently does making lined western holsters and gunbelts a machine like the cobra is an absolute if you want to make any money at it. Can you do it on a Boss? Yes but it can be a P.I.T.A. particularly bullet loops.

I get back to what the OP inquired about, which is making holsters as a hobby which he may or may not find satisfying in the long run. Lets say he buys a Cobra 3 I believe $2395 plus $300 to $500 as a guess for shipping and decides a year from now this isn't for me. A used Cobra might bring $1800 if you are willing to paletize it for shipping. If not you are confined to a local market which might not be favorable. A Boss however, purchased lightly used will be around $1000 if you decide to sell it you can advertise it here or put it on ebay and get back all of your money or a profit. You can ship it anywhere in the ConUS for $30 or less.

That was the point I have been trying to make. Most seem to be aproaching it from the idea that going into business and making a variety of items is a given. In that case of course the Cobra would be the logical choice probably the class 4 with EP.

I think you are correct, it is easier to loose 10% on $1000.00 from depreciation than 10% of $2400.00 +shipping. A beginner, not sure they are going to stick with it may not want to put out that much money for something they have never used before (power machine).

I'll give you $600 plus shipping for that old dust collector and you won't have to look at it any more.

How about a bidding war!!? lol!!!

Just my .02cents

Rick J.

[OWP Saddery]

Matt,

You guys are what the rest of us strive to achieve in this business, your work and knowledge are unquestionable, it is the best. But this gentleman is a beginner (without knowing for sure he will make it a profession) and may have not ever used an powered machine, he is on a budget and wants to step up to the next level. A machine such as the Cobra is a Rolls Royce to use but, for the hobbyist it may be to big of a jump.

You are correct, the return on investment is the best it ever has been, the machines are less now than years ago thanks to competition in the market. I have sold the original Boss I bought as a hobbyist within hours of posting it (I wish I had more) I have a list of people hopeing the deal will fall through so they have a chance at it because they called me and hour after the second person I talked to bought it.

Any more advice on buying a new machine for a beginner saddler maker

I think you are correct, it is easier to loose 10% on $1000.00 from depreciation than 10% of $2400.00 +shipping. A beginner, not sure they are going to stick with it may not want to put out that much money for something they have never used before (power machine).

How about a bidding war!!? lol!!!

Just my .02cents

Rick J.

Any advice for a beginner saddler maker in purchising a new machine?

[jimsaddler]

Any advice for a beginner saddler maker in purchising a new machine?

Bit of quiet advice

Lot of hype going on to steer towards the Cobra.

Try them all! Including Ferdco, Cowboy , Artisan. They are all the same machine virtually except for experience.

The low prices as a result of the Price War are unsustainable and there will be casualties and it would appear from the Hype that there is a lot of drumming up going on. My advice is when times are tight the Belt is pulled in so that you can survive on less. Those that fail are those that resort to Hype and claim they have a better Mouse Trap.

A Saddlers machine is just that, a Saddlers Machine that sews through Heavy and light Leather with ease and has good clearance under the Arm to accommodate the Job, 16.5 inches is ideal. Smaller will crunch up your Skirts, Bigger is too big. All four have such a Machine, so it is up to you to talk to each one and decide. I'd go for the Biggest Flywheel for better Torque and control and Stainless Steel Feet and Needle Plates to avoid Metal Stains on Damp Leather. Ask about a variable speed Servo Motor and big Speed reducer, so you can crawl ( about 1 or 2 stitches per second) before you walk (150 Stitches per minute) and start to Run (3-400 per min). Reverse is a bonus for back tacking. 3 or 4 different Needle Plates (preferably Stainless). A Roller stitch guide. Also a Flat Bed attachment to increase the scope of the Machine to make Saddle Pads and Blankets.

Ask the seller if he has any Saddle Trade qualification. Some have! This is a must. Also send some proper Samples to be sewn if you can't get to see the Machine.

Now I hope this is of some benefit to you. Go for it and get the best Deal you can.

Yes I sell a Saddlers Machine or two down under and they are the Market Leaders down here. I'm not trying to sell you one though. I am trying to let sanity reign on LW Forum, as it is an advice Forum not a Sales Pitch.

There are some very good Sewing Machines available now and that is the way it should stay. No one deserves the biggest piece of the Cake at the expense of the others. Just because he makes the most noise. Fair competition creates Fair development and we have certainly seen this happen in the past 10 years in Saddle Stitching Machines. But lately it has become a real Battle with Mud slinging and all.

So go for it while the prices are so low, There are some who will still help you if there are casualties of this Battle. They are the Quiet ones!!

Best of luck with your search.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[UKRay]

As I re-read this post in the morning it looks like I'm trolling for a sewing machine war here. I'm not. Really.

I'm trying to figure out if there is a good reason that I should NOT go with a TORO 4000 over a Cobra 3. I would guess that Artisan is better able to sustain a price war against Cobra, and while I feel some sympathy for Steve I need to get the best deal for myself that I can.

Thanks,

Dan

Dan,

When you buy anything, surely you look at the deal as a whole, and not just at the purchase price?

The first part of the deal is the initial supply of the right machine for the job. Machines last for years so you need to find a dealer who knows what they are selling and will make sure you have a machine that will not just suit you now but will still be appropriate in a year's time. They need to be honest with themselves and you about this.

Then you will need to look at how your dealer might stack up in the future.

Over the past year my sewing machines have cost me a lot of money over and above the purchase price. Accessories and spare parts can be very expensive and so can repairs. An engineer's time is unbelievably expensive but that doesn't matter if you have an angry customer on your back shouting at you.

In the past five months my (purchased brand new) sewing machine has had a new motor, a new control system and five engineers visits to replace parts and set it up correctly. Okay its working now and it didn't cost me a penny because I have a great dealer; but how much would that have cost if I had not had a reputable supplier.

In the past twelve months I have spent more than three hundred dollars on new presser feet, bobbins, needle plates and more and was grateful to find a dealer who stocked them for my machine.

My guy is great and I trust him to come out when I need him. He answers phone enquiries with patience and consideration and always provides a fix to the problem. He is also in the UK so he won't do you much good! LOL

What you must do, preferably before you have parted with any money, is be as certain as you can that the person you choose to do business with (and never forget that you have a choice) is both trustworthy and reliable. They must know the sewing machine business inside out and they must have a proven track record of fixing machines quickly - either by sending parts and a telephone technical support/after sales service or by physically fixing the problem.

They must provide a 'lifetime' of peace of mind - all the while you own your machine you must be able to buy spares and get it fixed when it needs it. If your dealer doesn't have that reputation then ask yourself why you would even consider buying from them.

Just my opinion and worth precisely what you paid for it.

Ray

[HPepper]

I have only been leatherworking for 2 months now but I have found that I really enjoy it and am considering taking this hobby to the next level by buying an intro level sewing machine. I mainly enjoy the creative process of creating my own patterns and tweaking holster designs of my own creation. Although I feel I have become decent at hand sewing, it is kind of a drag & is by far the most time consuming build element for a hand sewer.

As far as I can tell there really are only 4 main choices for a novice holster builder like myself who is looking for the most reasonably priced sewing machine. A machine by Cowboy Sew might fit into the "intro level" category, but they do not post prices on their site and I have yet to call them.

Right now the Techsew GA5-1R looks the most attractive to me. It only can sew up to 7/16" thickness (about 4 layers of 7 oz leather), but am I correct in thinking that will be enough for someone who will build only holsters?

If the Boss was available for under a thousand dollars it would make it a 'no brainer' choice for me, but is the ability to sew up to 3/4" really worth the extra cost? Particularly since it is a manually operated machine?

If cost was no option a TORO 3000 or a Cobra Class 3 would obviously be the way to go. But in the real world where price matters, I am forced to ask -

• Is the abiility to sew 3/4" or thicker leather worth the extra cost for a holster maker?

and, if not...

• Does the quality of the Artisan or TORO machine justify the additional cost over the Techsew?

I appreciate any thoughts on this stuff, particularly from experienced folks who have owned one or more of these machines.

Thanks,

Lance

Before I knew to ask around, I bought an Artisan flatbed and cylinder bed. The Artisan flatbed's motor has always been very iffy. They replaced it already for me, and it still is a problem ... hesitates when I have any kind of thickness at all. My Artisan cylinder bed won't accept heavy thread, which it is supposed to. The timing reset button never worked. It jams easily and very, very badly... (I've been sewing for 30+ years, so I'm not a stranger to machines.) When you need your machine to work, and it won't, and this happens repeatedly -- exactly what have you got? neither your investment dollars nor a functioning machine. And you feel like a fool for buying their stuff and putting yourself at their mercy.

I bought the Cobra Class 4 about a half-year ago, and it's been purring ever since. It'll roll through the thickest stuff I give it like it was butter. The control is superb. It tracks straight as a string. I'm able to sew really tight curves, never skips a stitch. It's everything I've ever wanted, and I'm going to purchase the EPS upgrade so that it's even better. And it's as silent as a breeze, which isn't critical but it's nice. The presser foot makes a groove that the thread sits down into, so the stitch looks handmade. Very attractive stitch.

** Speaking of which, you need to look at samples of stitches put out by each machine you're considering. There is stitch quality discrepancy among the different brand machines.

good luck with your decision.

P.

[olliesrevenge]

Thanks guys! You folks really helped me to decide which machine to buy.

After some careful thought, I decided to go with a used Tippmann Boss. I found it right here on Leatherworker.net in the used machine forum, for sale by Rick at the Arizona saddle and boot doctors. Rick was a pleasure to deal with, & did everything he said he was going to do. Thanks Rick!

I figure if making gunleather never progresses past the "hobby" point for me, I can pretty easily live with spending about a grand on a sewing machine to fulfill my hobby. Then, if I actually become sucessful at running a small holstermaking business at some point, well then, having a thousand tied up in a used Boss will be the least of my worries.

Thanks again to all who replied. Now I just have to go learn how to use this thing!

See you around,

Lance

[DougVL]

I think what you might take more consideration of is that Artisan may be less able to sustain the price war than Cobra. They are both burning cash to sustain this war and one is going to run out before the other. Who is burning cash faster? The one with the lower prices. Why not take advantage of the super low price? If your guy loses, you can't expect the other guy to treat you as a valued customer, he's going to sell you the replacement part, but it won't be on lifetime warranty, in fact, I would expect to get soaked for it and not get a bit of help making the repair. Remember, he has his LOYAL customers to take care of.

Don't chase price, look for something that will be serviceable for years with friendly, affordable, and available service for the life of the product.

The desired thing is for both of these companies to survive. However, I think there is just too much bad blood for that to happen.

Anyone notice the Artisan ads at the top of the Leatherworker.net pages?

Art

If he buys one (either) and the seller goes out of business, the other dealer won't have the competition any more and service might be quite likely to suffer. But more likely, either seller will be glad to have a customer and treat him well, no matter what or where he bought before. That's just plain good business!

Doug

[DougVL]

Thanks Art. That's what I was looking for. Cobra it is.

Now I just need to decide between the 3 and the 4

Dan

Probably too late now, but I'd recommend for a hobbyist to get a used Boss. It seems a pretty safe investment with low risk because of good resale value. Then you can see how you like it (I wouldn't like all that pulling - I tried one in a store once).

Then if you move up to business work, get the power machine, when it might be able to pay for itself. Otherwise it's an EXTREMELY expensive hobby toy! It might also have a good resale value, but you're pretty likely to lose at least 25% of the purchase price if you sell it. Probably about what a used Boss would cost!

Consider the economics carefully.

Doug

[BigRiverLeather]

I voted for the Toro 300 ecause that is what I just picked up. One problem I had was the inability to locally see different machines working. That would have been nice.

The reason I chose the Toro was based on recommendations from 2, we'll call it three since one was second hand, people. That combined with the small price different between the 3000 and the Boss.

I fisrt posted a thread in the holster section about ramping up my fledgling business, whether or not to go full time. I mentioned I might pick up a Boss. Several people advised if going full time to go with a Toro or Cobra. One had mentioned he had gone through 2 or 3 (can't remember which) Boss amchines, that they just did not hold up for him. That combined with the fact that at the time I was looking, used Boss machines at a reasonable price for what I might get in a used machine were not easy to find at all. Being new, I wanted to have someone to call if I had a question or problem, so new seemed best. K-Man from KD holsters highly recommended the Toro. Then I went into my local Tandy store and talked with the owner there who has a western holster business. We started talking sewing machines and hes said he has the Toro, LOVES the machine and spoke very highly of David and the customer service at Artison. He also mentioned Eric at Side Guard Holsters, another local guy to me, just picked up his second Toro, one for brown thread so he would not have to take the time to change. That was my 3rd and second hand recommendation.

My previous method was a 4 prong diamond chisel punch and heavy waxed thread. This made for a VERY nice look I was afraid I would lose by going to a machine. I now use a 346/277 combo and am very happy with it.

My impressions after making a couple of holsters using 8-9 oz HO, sometimes with a 4oz renforcement and an exotic - Definately speeds up production. What took me an hour to 1.5 hours after getting good at hand stitcing would take 10 minutes total, setup and everything. Having done only a few holsters this far, this should speed up a little with experience.

I did not see this thread before purchasing which is good, because it either would have dragged out my decision making process going back and forth between the personally recommended Toto and the aparently hghly regarded Cobra, and it probably would have cost me another $300-$400 by going with the Cobra.

One thing I have read about in this thread and now am concerned about is the hesitation in the Toro. Sometimes It will just chatter until I give the pedal a quick bump, then it takes off which I don't like, seems like a bad stitch or accident waiting to happen. Other times it just doesn't move at all. At first I thought it was blowing a fuse or the motor needed resetting, and going through the steps to reset gave me no satisfaction. Then I found if I gave the wheel a little help by hand it would take off, again a little to fast for comfort. My motor speed selector was on low. I had really hoped that I had it on high so this would be fixed.

This has been my first real "problem" with the machine so Ill have a good chance to see how Artisan's CS is. To date, David, in my opinion, has been as good or better than I could have asked for. He has been very prompt with his replies on questions, called me when I sent an email on some operating questions which I also gained some good technique knowledge from him at that time. He then followed up with an email a day or two later to make sure the things we discussed were working out. I was impressed by that. I'll be calling him tomorrow to ask about the hesitation.

I know the OP has already made his decision, but I thought I would post this for future readers trying to make this same decision.

[Mongo]

I bought a Boss at first and I could never get it to run dependably. It required constant adjustment when I changed leather thicknesses. I don't mean to bash Tippman. I may be at fault with my problems with the Boss.

Early last fall I bought a Cobra class 4 and I have never looked back. The learning curve on this machine was almost nil. I was able to produce quality products almost at once. I did have to call Steve once or twice, but he hand-held me through some minor adjustments and I was off and running.

[buffalocuir]

Hello has all

I read with big interet this comment, I possess various machines among which one BOSS (which(who) works very well) and I would like to complete my material(equipment) with a machine of the type(chap) ARTISANTS or TORO or to simillair, know how to find or this type(chap) of machine in Europe, I am in France and to have an equivalent it is necessary to count 7000 - 12000 $

This message was translated by an automatic translator

Bill

[busted]

I have only been leatherworking for 2 months now but I have found that I really enjoy it and am considering taking this hobby to the next level by buying an intro level sewing machine. I mainly enjoy the creative process of creating my own patterns and tweaking holster designs of my own creation. Although I feel I have become decent at hand sewing, it is kind of a drag & is by far the most time consuming build element for a hand sewer.

As far as I can tell there really are only 4 main choices for a novice holster builder like myself who is looking for the most reasonably priced sewing machine. A machine by Cowboy Sew might fit into the "intro level" category, but they do not post prices on their site and I have yet to call them.

Right now the Techsew GA5-1R looks the most attractive to me. It only can sew up to 7/16" thickness (about 4 layers of 7 oz leather), but am I correct in thinking that will be enough for someone who will build only holsters?

If the Boss was available for under a thousand dollars it would make it a 'no brainer' choice for me, but is the ability to sew up to 3/4" really worth the extra cost? Particularly since it is a manually operated machine?

If cost was no option a TORO 3000 or a Cobra Class 3 would obviously be the way to go. But in the real world where price matters, I am forced to ask -

• Is the abiility to sew 3/4" or thicker leather worth the extra cost for a holster maker?

There is a Tippman Boss on Ebay for sale tonight.

Ebay item #130392380270

Good luck.

and, if not...

• Does the quality of the Artisan or TORO machine justify the additional cost over the Techsew?

I appreciate any thoughts on this stuff, particularly from experienced folks who have owned one or more of these machines.

Thanks,

Lance