Finding Model Guns

[TheSensei]

I have a friend who wants me to make him a couple holsters.Unfortunately, he lives on the east coast, and I don't have his guns! Ihave a friend who has the same Sig Sauer that will let me model on it,so that's taken care of. But the other gun is a Kimber Pro Carry, whichI don't have, or know anyone who has it. I've already looked atblueguns.com, but they don't have that gun, and I'm not too keen onspending $50 on a fake gun anyway unless I know I'll be doing at leasta few more with it!

Anybody have any other ideas? Is there another gun that is identicalthat I could try to find (maybe a generic blue gun that would be worthbuying)? Or is there a cheap BB/AirSoft gun that would match it and beappropriate for modeling?

[BigRiverLeather]

You can use the Blue guns 4.25" commander sized 1911, it does not have to be the Kimber specifically. Most 1911's are the same platform so you won't have any problems with that. So if you know someone that has a commander sized 1911, you can use it.

IF you get the blue gun, understand that it is not cocked and locked which is how he will likely want to carry it. This means the safety is in the on (up) position. I ground mine off, drilled a hole and installed a real mil-spec safety in the cocked and locked position. The other option is to just form it the way it is and form another postion by hand for the safety to rest in the on position.

You can also get one from www.duncansoutdoor.com. They have aluminum molds for about the same cost as the blue guns. Blue gun molds can be had for less money than you pay right from the manufacturer (Rings) but you may wait quite a while. Try www.midway.com.

[dickf]

Also note that the Pro Carry's are 4" guns, not 4.25" like true Commanders.

[TheSensei]

Also note that the Pro Carry's are 4" guns, not 4.25" like true Commanders.

That's what I thought, which is why I didn't' think it would work real well unless I did a "slide" holster, which is not what I want to do in this case. Any ideas on adjusting it for the 4" barrel?

[gregintenn]

Leave the bottom open and use any 1911 as a mold.

[particle]

That's what I thought, which is why I didn't' think it would work real well unless I did a "slide" holster, which is not what I want to do in this case. Any ideas on adjusting it for the 4" barrel?

A 4.25" barrel can easily be made to fit a 4" gun. Just trim the bottom a little shorter - flush with the 4.25" barrel so when the 4" gun is in the holster, it'll still have a little protection from the extra leather at the bottom. Here is a photo I took a little while back to demonstrate the different frame lengths to a customer.

Left to right:

Duncan's 5"

My Dan Wesson CBOB 4.25"

Ring's 3"

[dickf]

Leave the bottom open and use any 1911 as a mold.

This is not what you want to do.

Particle just recently made a beautiful rig for a 4" Crimson Carry, so I take his advice as solid.

Note the difference in the dust covers between those 3 sizes he illustrates with his photo. This is exactly why you don't want to do what gregintenn suggested.

It's always best to use the right tools for the job.

[particle]

For grins, here is a holster I just completed for a 4" that was built with my 4.25" gun. I used my standard 4.25" template then sliced off .25" from the bottom of the holster body piece before assembly. Mine sits a little proud of the surface, but a 4" gun should fit nicely with plenty of protection around the muzzle.

[Denster]

Particle you just get better and better. Your stitching is flawless. You should send some photos of your work to Tippmann I'll bet they would feature you in their monthly newsletter as a Boss user. Free advertising never hurts.

[particle]

Particle you just get better and better. Your stitching is flawless. You should send some photos of your work to Tippmann I'll bet they would feature you in their monthly newsletter as a Boss user. Free advertising never hurts.

Thanks! I actually had to rip the stitches out of one tonight - it was natural. I'm wondering if the natural, un-dyed leather affects tension? I sewed another holster without any problems, but the natural all the sudden wasn't pulling the top thread down into the leather very well. So frustrating getting tension adjusted sometimes.

[Denster]

Thanks! I actually had to rip the stitches out of one tonight - it was natural. I'm wondering if the natural, un-dyed leather affects tension? I sewed another holster without any problems, but the natural all the sudden wasn't pulling the top thread down into the leather very well. So frustrating getting tension adjusted sometimes.

Natural leather is easier to pull the thread through than dyed. If you leave the tension set for natural you should be good to go with either. Always a good idea to keep a couple of glued up strips of scrap by the machine and run a line of stitches before you start to work for real. Catches those little problems before they happen.

[mmirob]

Just so impressive. As a fellow tippmann user, I hope I can ever get that good on my machine. Do you even back stitch? Do you use the same size thread on your bobbin? Do you air brush your dye? Regular fiebings dye? I just cant seem to get my dye to finish so uniformly. Denster feel free to chime in.

[Denster]

Just so impressive. As a fellow tippmann user, I hope I can ever get that good on my machine. Do you even back stitch? Do you use the same size thread on your bobbin? Do you air brush your dye? Regular fiebings dye? I just cant seem to get my dye to finish so uniformly. Denster feel free to chime in.

I use 346 top and 277 bottom poly thread. I try to plan my stitchruns so I overstitch 3 or 4 stitches on an outside edge. Back stitching where necessary is easy just take a little pressure off your presserfoot and back up and put the needle through the hole. I know that Eric (Particle) airbrushes his dye. Check out his website and click on the how it's made link. Neat video that will give you a lot of answers.

[particle]

Just so impressive. As a fellow tippmann user, I hope I can ever get that good on my machine. Do you even back stitch? Do you use the same size thread on your bobbin? Do you air brush your dye? Regular fiebings dye? I just cant seem to get my dye to finish so uniformly. Denster feel free to chime in.

Thanks - I do back stitch. Actually, I over stitch. What I usually do is run a test stitch on scraps of the same thickness as my holster. Then, I'll measure the stitch holes to see what spacing I'm getting over a distance of about 4 holes - usually, 4 stitches is about 3/4" if I recall correctly off the top of my head. Then, I'll transfer that 3/4" dimension from one corner on my holster, and measure 3/4" prior to that and mark a tiny hole. This is where I start stitching. Stitch all the way around, and then back over the initial 3/4" long section you started with. Make sense?

I've found that turning corners (and rotating the piece around 180 to lock the stitch) can affect tension, resulting in exposed bobbin or needle thread. I just think it's easier to over stitch instead of back stitch.

Regarding the dye, I'm using the Fiebing's Pro Oil dyes - they seem to even out much better than the regular dye. Airbrushing it is the key.

[gregintenn]

This is not what you want to do.

Particle just recently made a beautiful rig for a 4" Crimson Carry, so I take his advice as solid.

Note the difference in the dust covers between those 3 sizes he illustrates with his photo. This is exactly why you don't want to do what gregintenn suggested.

It's always best to use the right tools for the job.

I've sold at least 20 standard pancake holsters molded to a Colt Gold Cup, with the bottom open, to guys who carry a wide array of different sized 1911's in them and have had nothing but positive feedback as to the retention and performance of my holsters. Your experience may vary. I offer a full moneyback guarantee if you aren't satisfied for any reason, and have yet to have any takers.

[dickf]

I stand by my first statement in that it is the wrong thing to do. If you see nothing wrong with a 3" gun floating around in a holster made from a 5" gun, that's fine. That methodology is not up to my standards and I think it can pose a safety concern, as well. I also think you'd be hard pressed to find a veteran holster maker that would disagree.

[Denster]

I stand by my first statement in that it is the wrong thing to do. If you see nothing wrong with a 3" gun floating around in a holster made from a 5" gun, that's fine. That methodology is not up to my standards and I think it can pose a safety concern, as well. I also think you'd be hard pressed to find a veteran holster maker that would disagree.

Might want to rethink that a bit. As long as the holster was adjusted for length the only variation in any other dimensions would be that tiny 1/4" long transition between the dust cover and recoil spring guide to the end of the barrel. Not boning in that detail would have zero affect on retention. If you just had to have it, just retract the gun until 1/4" of the transition is inside the holster and finish it out. Hardley what I would call floating around. I'm all for using the right tool for the job but not everyone has the luxury of all he tools. I fail to see any potential safety issues.

[dickf]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

[Denster]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Agreed!

A bit of possibly useful information. The length of the dustcover on the various sizes of 1911s registering from the front of the triggerguard to the end of the dustcover is (5" barrel 2" to end of DC) (4.25, 4, 3.5" barrel 1&3/4" to end of DC) (3" barrel 1&1/2" to end of DC) This is not a close tolerance dimension and will vary a few thousandths between guns.

[gregintenn]

We'll just have to agree to disagree then.

Fair enough. I don't claim to begin to have the knowledge or skill most of you have. I answered the OP's question with the benefit of the limited experience I've had. As I get most of the retention around the triggerguard and slide area, The other pistols aren't exactly "floating around". You do bring up a very interesting point I've pondered about a safety issue. I wonder if there are any holster makers who've had to defend themselves against any type of liability lawsuit. Do you who are professionals carry liability insurance?

[K-Man]

There are differences between the 1911's, not just with barrel length, but with dust cover size and shape.

At some point, I keep hoping the light bulb will go off in people's head that it makes a difference whether or not you use the proper gun to fit the holster, at least if you're wanting to make a custom molded one. There are certain parameters that apply in every instance when it comes to making a holster for a gun - period. Can't state it any more plain than that.

Use of the proper gun/fit lends to long-term durability and use of the holster. Tolerance differences on the guns affect that.

Most customers can recognize early enough that there's a fit issue with their gun in the holster. And most will dispose of the holster before it leads to any serious safety issues. That's why you don't hear of holster maker's being sued because of it.

In short, it falls to the tolerance/acceptance of the individual holster maker and what level of the industry they want to work at, and what risks they're willing to take. I've read too many stories of holster makers trying to skimp by and use a gun that is different from what's needed. For example, I know a holster maker who was using a 6-shot revolver for fitting holsters for a 5-shot cylinder gun (makes a difference). Didn't take long for word about a sloppy fit of gun to holster to get out. A bunch of folks read that story, and the holster maker saw a dive in sales. In short, he had lost the confidence of both current and potential customers. There's other stories of guns sticking out the end of the holster because the holster maker used the wrong gun, and the list goes on and on.

In short, if you as the holster maker are satisfied with the reputation that such errant actions bring, then go for it.

gregintenn: I have liability insurance, always have. In my opinion, it's more prudent to do so then not.

Edited April 13, 2010 by K-Man

[gregintenn]

Thank you, K Man, for taking the time to share your insight.

Edited April 13, 2010 by gregintenn

[Denster]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, the part where someone suggested using a five shot revolver to mold holsters for a six shot revolver or leaving the barrel exposed at the end of the holster. That and such things as using a 1911 to make holsters for a Browning HP are not sound practices and no one suggested they were.

As to the dimensional differences between 1911's. I have examples from Sig, Colt, Taurus, Rock Island, Springfield and Kimber in all barrel lengths from 3.5" to 5". With the exception of Sig, who just has to do something different, as far as the area of the recoil spring guide. The dimensions we're concerned with are within a few thousandths of an inch of each other and have identical shapes. I measured the width of the dust cover, width of the recoil spring guide, width of the slide, width of the triggerguard, height of slide/dust cover, height of slide/recoil spring guide. I might add that what little difference there is would likely be found in 10 examples of the same make and model pistols as these are not critical dimensions. This is leatherworking not die sinking and leather is not a medium that lends itself to working to metal working tolerances. I can't do it and niether can those who think they can.

What is vital to a holster's retention ability and fit are quality leather, a close stitchline, good peripherial molding and good construction techniques. Detail molding, while attractive and I do it, does little to add to the fit and long term retention and is worthless if any of the former are missing. That's just my take on it. YMMV

It might be useful if some, rather than just jump in with the occassional criticism or slap at someone, shared some of their techniques for doing it, what they percieve, to be the right way.

[K-Man]

Maybe I missed something in this thread, the part where someone suggested using a five shot revolver to mold holsters for a six shot revolver or leaving the barrel exposed at the end of the holster. That and such things as using a 1911 to make holsters for a Browning HP are not sound practices and no one suggested they were.

As to the dimensional differences between 1911's. I have examples from Sig, Colt, Taurus, Rock Island, Springfield and Kimber in all barrel lengths from 3.5" to 5". With the exception of Sig, who just has to do something different, as far as the area of the recoil spring guide. The dimensions we're concerned with are within a few thousandths of an inch of each other and have identical shapes. I measured the width of the dust cover, width of the recoil spring guide, width of the slide, width of the triggerguard, height of slide/dust cover, height of slide/recoil spring guide. I might add that what little difference there is would likely be found in 10 examples of the same make and model pistols as these are not critical dimensions. This is leatherworking not die sinking and leather is not a medium that lends itself to working to metal working tolerances. I can't do it and niether can those who think they can.

What is vital to a holster's retention ability and fit are quality leather, a close stitchline, good peripherial molding and good construction techniques. Detail molding, while attractive and I do it, does little to add to the fit and long term retention and is worthless if any of the former are missing. That's just my take on it. YMMV

It might be useful if some, rather than just jump in with the occassional criticism or slap at someone, shared some of their techniques for doing it, what they percieve, to be the right way.

We're obviously making holsters on a different level from one another. Those differences between the sizes make a difference on our holsters, whether it's for a 1911 or other styles of guns.

The conversation, at least my understanding, evolved into using the proper gun for the correct fit. I only used the example, which was preceded by the words, "for example," of the 5-shot vs 6-shot cylinder to make the point of the importance of using the proper gun.

You're incorrect that the detail adds little to the fit and long term retention of the gun in the holster. Part of basic holster-making 101 shows the greater the amount of leather in direct contact with the gun is what provides for greater retention. That added detailing adds to the retention in key locations on the gun frame by virtue of the leather being pressed against the frame of the gun.

My comments are based on my personal experience, and my instruction from those holster makers who are considered the epitome of the custom holster industry. My construction of our holsters mirrors the same methods. What some folks here tout as the proper way, or a tried and true way, simply are missing the boat. You may perceive my comments as criticism, but that's probably based on the fact that they conflict with some of the information being provided here. One has only to look at the product, and listen/read of the reputation, to see the differences. If I were doing things incorrectly, I doubt seriously we would have the amount of success, and at the level, that we do.

This forum was initially derived to provide instruction on how to make items in the leathercraft industry. In this segment of the forum, we're talking about holsters. I'm not against providing instruction, and often do when contacted by the members here, and people are welcome to contact me if they desire. If that instruction conflicts with the information often touted here, well, then maybe it's time for those here to evaluate their practices.

Good luck to you.

Edited April 13, 2010 by K-Man

[Denster]

Thank you! I wish you much continued success. One thing I will say is that you do make nice holsters at a very fair price.