New Wade Saddle Got Me Bucked Off All Weekend

[Huntet02]

Bought a nice Wade 7/8 Plate Rigging 2 wks ago. I wasn't able to try it on my horse before buying but used saddle at home for week or more and things seemed fine UNTIL I this weekend when I went up steep hills. THis weekend while on a mountinous trail ride found out the very hard way that this saddles cinch doesn't stay behind elbows no matter where I put it to start. The saddle and my 1 1/2 inch 5-Star pad all move back when going up a steep hill which caused my good ole reliable mare to go "very western very fast all day long"!! I didn't have a pulling collar on her with this new saddle I just hadn't bought it yet but feel thats beside the point as I don't believe the pulling collar would have done anything to keep the cinch where it needed to be.I've got a problem with the way it fits my horse...YIKES

SORRY FINGRE BROKe typing is bad.....

anyway after limping home after being bucked off good twice and fighting all the way home we looked at things and found that this new wade saddle and the placement of the front cinch is the main problem. The rigging is direclty underneath instead of up front and high which I know they are placed there to get a better center of gravity but its not working for me and my horse. This is my first "wade" saddle and Ive rode them before but I ordered this saddle through internet given a money back garantee(for little while) but the way this rigging is and my horse high withers it keeps making the pad and cinch slide back to the middle of my mares belly (god knows were the back cinch is then landing) causing mucho spontaneous combustion. So I have a serious problem. I just paid good money for this saddle and trying to figure out my options and need advice badly...

Signed worried about my investment

Edited April 5, 2010 by Huntet02

[Steve Brewer]

By your pictures I cn't tell where the rigging is set.Send some pictures of it on your horse.Could be you you have the wrong bar spread on the tree.

Steve

[mulefool]

A picture on the horse would definitely be helpful. If you are trying to place it on her back based on where you think the cinch should be, rather than where the tree should sit, it could be you are placing it too far forward. But hard to tell without seeing it on the horse. Chris

[Huntet02]

By your pictures I cn't tell where the rigging is set.Send some pictures of it on your horse.Could be you you have the wrong bar spread on the tree.

Steve

Thank you for your reply I will surely take some pics of the saddle on the horse tonight and get to you all....

[Huntet02]

A picture on the horse would definitely be helpful. If you are trying to place it on her back based on where you think the cinch should be, rather than where the tree should sit, it could be you are placing it too far forward. But hard to tell without seeing it on the horse. Chris

Thank you for your reply I will surely take some pics of the saddle on the horse tonight and get to you all....we tried placing it way far forward clear up on her mane to see how much it moved backwards and then lunged her and each time it would inch backward....we tried two different pads and the same effect. Dawg gone it but will take pictures tonight and get back with you...

[jwwright]

You didn't say where in Kansas you are...............but, if it's possible for me to see the saddle / horse , I'd be happy to take a look at the situation for you. JW

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Hunter,

The idea that there is a "right" place for a cinch is one of the fallacies about saddle fit that is commonly taught. So long as the cinch is on the breast bone and not behind it, it doesn't matter where on the breastbone it sits. The shape of your horse will determine where it sits since it will move to where it fits regardless of where you place it. It DOES NOT have to hang vertical.

The idea that the cinch placement has an effect on where a good fitting saddle fits is also a fallacy. If the shape of a saddle fits the shape of a horse (think two spoons nestled together), it will move to the spot it was intended to fit and stay there regardless of what angle the cinch is at. A forward angled cinch is NOT going to pull a GOOD fitting saddle forward. Nor will a cinch hold a good fitting saddle too far forward. It will move back to where it fits, and then stay there with a forward angled cinch. On the other hand a poorly fitting saddle is going to move around because the shapes just don't match (think spoon on fork or knife). The cinch may then affect where the saddle ends up. So if the rigging and cinch position do affect where your saddle ends up, it is a good sign that the saddle doesn't fit well.

In your case, either 1.) you are expecting the saddle to stay farther forward than it is made to sit or 2.) it doesn't fit well and so it moves around, or a combination of the two. From the reaction of your horse, I would expect #2 to be at least part of the problem.

The most helpful would be pictures of the way you normally saddle and where you place your saddle, what happens after the horse moves around so we can see where it ends up, and at least a side view of your horse without the saddle so we can see the basic shape of the horse. What style of saddle were you riding before?

Edited April 5, 2010 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[bruce johnson]

Another thing I am wondering is a 1-1/2 pad is pretty thick and with new woolskin over that, the saddle may not be pulling down as much either.

[RWB]

Another thing I am wondering is a 1-1/2 pad is pretty thick and with new woolskin over that, the saddle may not be pulling down as much either.

I was thinking the same thing, Bruce.

Huntet,

When you get a new saddle, you really have to cinch up TIGHT those first, maybe ten rides. You need to mash that woolskin down to get it to conform to a horses back. And then with a brand new pad underneath it, you are going to have about cut your horse in two, to get everything to conform. New woolskin and a new pad, all that is pretty thick and squishy. Plus a 1 1/2" Five Star pad it REALLY REALLY thick. I have found that a 3/4" to 1" worth of padding is going to be plenty for the majority of horses out there. Provided your saddle fits. But if you saddle is so wide that you need a 1 1/2 inch pad, you need a narrower saddle. I would try cinching up a little tighter.

Ross

[Ken Nelson]

I was thinking the same thing, Bruce.

Huntet,

When you get a new saddle, you really have to cinch up TIGHT those first, maybe ten rides. You need to mash that woolskin down to get it to conform to a horses back. And then with a brand new pad underneath it, you are going to have about cut your horse in two, to get everything to conform. New woolskin and a new pad, all that is pretty thick and squishy. Plus a 1 1/2" Five Star pad it REALLY REALLY thick. I have found that a 3/4" to 1" worth of padding is going to be plenty for the majority of horses out there. Provided your saddle fits. But if you saddle is so wide that you need a 1 1/2 inch pad, you need a narrower saddle. I would try cinching up a little tighter.

Ross

I agree with Bruce and a good point you make! I have had several first time new saddle owners call me up and tell me their new saddle was way too narrow for their horse. Rode it a few times and it fit fine. These real thick pads, in my opinion, cause way more problems than they ever fix. One of the best old cowboys I have ever known used to ride one double weave all wool blanket on most of the horses he rode. Once in a while you would see him with two double blankets on a horse. He did always have a narrow and a wider saddle just alike except for the gullet width. Which one he rode depended on what horse he rode. Never knew this man to have a sore backed horse and he rode a lot, roped a lot out in the open and worked in all kinds of country. He was also pretty picky about how the horses he raised and bought were made. Knew of him to cull a pretty nice colt for having too flat a back. My 2 cents worth. Ken

[Huntet02]

You didn't say where in Kansas you are...............but, if it's possible for me to see the saddle / horse , I'd be happy to take a look at the situation for you. JW

JW thanks so much for your reply....I am in Viola KS. I tried to call M.Hunn but her was off work today. Thing is I cannot get my horse and saddle to him anyway. Truck trainee just started acting up on our way home from this trail ride.

Where are you located? I need to do something before I cannot return this saddle. I am about 15 SW of the Wichita airport

[adagocowboy]

Bought a nice Wade 7/8 Plate Rigging 2 wks ago. I wasn't able to try it on my horse before buying but used saddle at home for week or more and things seemed fine UNTIL I this weekend when I went up steep hills. THis weekend while on a mountinous trail ride found out the very hard way that this saddles cinch doesn't stay behind elbows no matter where I put it to start. The saddle and my 1 1/2 inch 5-Star pad all move back when going up a steep hill which caused my good ole reliable mare to go "very western very fast all day long"!! I didn't have a pulling collar on her with this new saddle I just hadn't bought it yet but feel thats beside the point as I don't believe the pulling collar would have done anything to keep the cinch where it needed to be.I've got a problem with the way it fits my horse...YIKES

SORRY FINGRE BROKe typing is bad.....

anyway after limping home after being bucked off good twice and fighting all the way home we looked at things and found that this new wade saddle and the placement of the front cinch is the main problem. The rigging is direclty underneath instead of up front and high which I know they are placed there to get a better center of gravity but its not working for me and my horse. This is my first "wade" saddle and Ive rode them before but I ordered this saddle through internet given a money back garantee(for little while) but the way this rigging is and my horse high withers it keeps making the pad and cinch slide back to the middle of my mares belly (god knows were the back cinch is then landing) causing mucho spontaneous combustion. So I have a serious problem. I just paid good money for this saddle and trying to figure out my options and need advice badly...

Looks to me like you have 'mule bars' on this saddle. Could be too wide/not steep enough angle for your horse. I dont think it's the "wade" style saddle, just the bars. Hope everything turns out alright for you, an ill-fitting saddle can be the worst. rick

Signed worried about my investment

[Huntet02]

Hunter,

The idea that there is a "right" place for a cinch is one of the fallacies about saddle fit that is commonly taught. So long as the cinch is on the breast bone and not behind it, it doesn't matter where on the breastbone it sits. The shape of your horse will determine where it sits since it will move to where it fits regardless of where you place it. It DOES NOT have to hang vertical.

The idea that the cinch placement has an effect on where a good fitting saddle fits is also a fallacy. If the shape of a saddle fits the shape of a horse (think two spoons nestled together), it will move to the spot it was intended to fit and stay there regardless of what angle the cinch is at. A forward angled cinch is NOT going to pull a GOOD fitting saddle forward. Nor will a cinch hold a good fitting saddle too far forward. It will move back to where it fits, and then stay there with a forward angled cinch. On the other hand a poorly fitting saddle is going to move around because the shapes just don't match (think spoon on fork or knife). The cinch may then affect where the saddle ends up. So if the rigging and cinch position do affect where your saddle ends up, it is a good sign that the saddle doesn't fit well.

In your case, either 1.) you are expecting the saddle to stay farther forward than it is made to sit or 2.) it doesn't fit well and so it moves around, or a combination of the two. From the reaction of your horse, I would expect #2 to be at least part of the problem.

The most helpful would be pictures of the way you normally saddle and where you place your saddle, what happens after the horse moves around so we can see where it ends up, and at least a side view of your horse without the saddle so we can see the basic shape of the horse. What style of saddle were you riding before?

THank you for the great advice....I'm hearing my friend now who said don't buy a saddle you can't try on your horse first...well no use in explaining all the reasons I did it anyway but I believe you are correct in 1)me expecting the saddle to stay farther forward than it is made to sit, maybe I was expecting it to sit like my older Simco roper did. 2) my husband and I thought the cinch looked too far backward under her belly and so did everyone riding but it was already too close upon withers to move more forward so yes your prabably correct on all accoutns. I lunged her and let nature move things as it would then re-tightened and did this a couple of times before all of us headed out. I did ride this saddle 4 times at home for hours before taking it on this long ride but again I didn't have the kind of hills I encournted. This saddle fit has something to do with my mare not licking that cinch and OR pad where it was bottom line and I"ve got to figure it out...for sure. The buck I recieved cantering uphill was a crazy one. What I remember the most was feeling the pad, this thick pad I've always rode her in sliding backwards where it shouldnt have been I'm sure it goosed her.

[Huntet02]

I agree with Bruce and a good point you make! I have had several first time new saddle owners call me up and tell me their new saddle was way too narrow for their horse. Rode it a few times and it fit fine. These real thick pads, in my opinion, cause way more problems than they ever fix. One of the best old cowboys I have ever known used to ride one double weave all wool blanket on most of the horses he rode. Once in a while you would see him with two double blankets on a horse. He did always have a narrow and a wider saddle just alike except for the gullet width. Which one he rode depended on what horse he rode. Never knew this man to have a sore backed horse and he rode a lot, roped a lot out in the open and worked in all kinds of country. He was also pretty picky about how the horses he raised and bought were made. Knew of him to cull a pretty nice colt for having too flat a back. My 2 cents worth. Ken

I never said it was a new pad its not, I did ride the horse with a reinsman wool pad and tightened everything tight the first 4 rides at home (not ten rides but 4...) but this horse is older and for a trail like Medicine lodge I needed the t star pad and tried it also at home but didn't do enough hill work.

Plus I said wrong its not 1 1/2" Five star sorry its the 3/4" and its 2 yrs old she's quite used to it.

[Huntet02]

Another thing I am wondering is a 1-1/2 pad is pretty thick and with new woolskin over that, the saddle may not be pulling down as much either.

Sorry I said the wrong thickness of 5-star pad I checked its the 3/4" instead my mistake. Here' a picture from last summer of the pad on the horse in question....

[Huntet02]

I was thinking the same thing, Bruce.

Huntet,

When you get a new saddle, you really have to cinch up TIGHT those first, maybe ten rides. You need to mash that woolskin down to get it to conform to a horses back. And then with a brand new pad underneath it, you are going to have about cut your horse in two, to get everything to conform. New woolskin and a new pad, all that is pretty thick and squishy. Plus a 1 1/2" Five Star pad it REALLY REALLY thick. I have found that a 3/4" to 1" worth of padding is going to be plenty for the majority of horses out there. Provided your saddle fits. But if you saddle is so wide that you need a 1 1/2 inch pad, you need a narrower saddle. I would try cinching up a little tighter.

Ross

I never said it was a new pad its not, I did ride the horse with a reinsman wool pad and tightened everything tight the first 4 rides at home (not ten rides but 4...) but this horse is older and for a trail like Medicine lodge I needed the 5 star pad and tried it first also at home but didn't do enough hill work obviously!

Plus I said the thickness wrong its not 1 1/2" its the 3/4" and its 2 yrs old she's quite used to it. Here's the pad last summer

Edited April 6, 2010 by Huntet02

[Huntet02]

A picture on the horse would definitely be helpful. If you are trying to place it on her back based on where you think the cinch should be, rather than where the tree should sit, it could be you are placing it too far forward. But hard to tell without seeing it on the horse. Chris

I was unable to get ANY pictures tonight of the horse with saddle......kids had program. All I can offer for now is horse without

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Huntet

When you have a chance, put the saddle on her with no pad and run your hand under the bar all the way down her back. She looks to have a fair amount of rock in her back and if the bars don't have much rock, she could be bridging badly - contact only or mainly at the front and the back. If you put her on an uphill climb, those back bar tips could be digging into that rise she has in the loin area pretty hard depending on how they are shaped. That is enough pain to cause a lot of horses to buck. Everyone worries about the shoulders but those back bar tips can do a lot of damage too if they dig in. Is she sore anywhere if you put pressure down her back and in toward the spine? Especially check where the bar tips would be - front and back.

Comparing your two saddles - no, the cinch is not going to hang in the same place on these two, and there is nothing wrong with that.

[kseidel]

There is a lot of speculation going on here without many facts. The pictures of the horse are helpful, but we need to know the specs of the tree in the new saddle. What are the bars and what are the dimensions of the bars? If you do not know, then contact with the maker will be necessary. The type of swell is of no consequence to fit on the horse. The fact that the horse is bucking is important, but what sort of bucking can indicate where the pain originated. Example: did she crow hop with head up, or put her head down and buck with rounded back? As Denise asked... are there any sore spots on the back? Using pressure with your fingers, you should be able to cause a reaction from pressure in certain spots, ie:withers, rear loin, or center. What is the horses' reaction? There are certain reactions coupled with information from the saddle tree measurements that can tell us what the problem is and how to best address a fix.

Keith

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Hard to tell by this picture, but; it looks like this horse is a well put up 1/4 horse type relatively wide, (my personal preferance). I suspect that you may be looking at the width of the gullet being too narrow and not fitting as Most of the others have pointed to. That Simco looks to be easily 7" to 71/2". Your new saddle needs to be similar in gullet width and angle, with a similar twist and rock. I would put the saddle on the horse with nothing but a piece of cotton sheet between the horse and the saddle to keep the saddle clean, and then lounge the horse for a couple of rounds so the saddle settles into the position it is going to migrate to. Then look it over real good, with a flash light between the bars up under the seat, under the rigging, under the bars all along the length the saddle and so on to see if it sits down flush without gaps between the bars along the length, also look to see if the bars are touching at the top the same as at the bottom of the bars. They should. Also, with the saddle now in position where it is going to ride, pay attention to where the rear cinch is. I could be too far rearward now and acting like a "bucking cinch". If you rig her up like a rodeo horse, expect her to be one. Of course this is all conjecture, we need you to take a bunch of pics , with and without the saddle and where it seems to fit correctly, and where you have been trying to put it, with and without a blanket and so on, and also tree specs. That will help one of the many really good horseman here to assist you in your problem. While I was writing this I see that Keith also chimed in. Like I said there are many really, really good horsmen here, the more information you can give the better help you will get.

Bondo Bob

[Huntet02]

Huntet

When you have a chance, put the saddle on her with no pad and run your hand under the bar all the way down her back. She looks to have a fair amount of rock in her back and if the bars don't have much rock, she could be bridging badly - contact only or mainly at the front and the back. If you put her on an uphill climb, those back bar tips could be digging into that rise she has in the loin area pretty hard depending on how they are shaped. That is enough pain to cause a lot of horses to buck. Everyone worries about the shoulders but those back bar tips can do a lot of damage too if they dig in. Is she sore anywhere if you put pressure down her back and in toward the spine? Especially check where the bar tips would be - front and back.

Comparing your two saddles - no, the cinch is not going to hang in the same place on these two, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Ok going to do this tonight but have questions first. When I run my hand under the bar all the way down her back under the saddle how am I know specifically IF the saddle doesn't have much rock?? Just by seeing if when she walks if the saddle is making contact with her back in all places?

[Huntet02]

There is a lot of speculation going on here without many facts. Doing the best I can here....The pictures of the horse are helpful, but we need to know the specs of the tree in the new saddle. Just spoke with Te___ saddle manager he said this saddle had Regular 6 3/4 width QH bars he gave me nothing else. Only asked the question of "Well did you ride the saddle already" I wanted to say "Here's your sign"

What are the bars and what are the dimensions of the bars? If you do not know, then contact with the maker will be necessary. The type of swell is of no consequence to fit on the horse. The fact that the horse is bucking is important, but what sort of bucking can indicate where the pain originated. Example: did she crow hop with head up, or put her head down and buck with rounded back? THe ride started out withe her trying to jut her head down and out NOT trying to get her head between her legs to buck like a bronc more jutting her head out and down to escape some sort of pain. All before the bucking started, she was jigging and jagging her head/neck never a steadied height terrible to handle, kept thinking she was just coming in heat or something thought I could get her to relax. When bucking occured we were starting our run up a fairly gradual yet sturdy clayhill. She went maybe 3 paces forward and I felt her jolting/bucking she never ever stopped while 20 folks waited on top of hill. I knew my pad had slipped back to far, she never got her head between her legs but I never got her turned good either she got me off balance on 4th jolt and lost my reins. AFter I hit the ground she was upset and it took 10 minutes to catch her. Ok just called my hubby he saw second buck said it looked like she just tucked her back legs underneath her and bounced her hind end up really hard never really kicked out real broncy like but this too was going uphill but really most of our day was spent doing up and downhill As Denise asked... are there any sore spots on the back? Using pressure with your fingers, you should be able to cause a reaction from pressure in certain spots, ie:withers, rear loin, or center. What is the horses' reaction? We pressured checked her with palms and fingers never finding anything in particular the day of...will check more tonight. There are certain reactions coupled with information from the saddle tree measurements that can tell us what the problem is and how to best address a fix.

Keith

Edited April 6, 2010 by Huntet02

[Huntet02]

Hard to tell by this picture, but; it looks like this horse is a well put up 1/4 horse type relatively wide, (my personal preferance). I suspect that you may be looking at the width of the gullet being too narrow and not fitting as Most of the others have pointed to. That Simco looks to be easily 7" to 71/2". Your new saddle needs to be similar in gullet width and angle, with a similar twist and rock. I would put the saddle on the horse with nothing but a piece of cotton sheet between the horse and the saddle to keep the saddle clean, and then lounge the horse for a couple of rounds so the saddle settles into the position it is going to migrate to. Then look it over real good, with a flash light between the bars up under the seat, under the rigging, under the bars all along the length the saddle and so on to see if it sits down flush without gaps between the bars along the length, also look to see if the bars are touching at the top the same as at the bottom of the bars. They should. Also, with the saddle now in position where it is going to ride, pay attention to where the rear cinch is. I could be too far rearward now and acting like a "bucking cinch". If you rig her up like a rodeo horse, expect her to be one. Of course this is all conjecture, we need you to take a bunch of pics , with and without the saddle and where it seems to fit correctly, and where you have been trying to put it, with and without a blanket and so on, and also tree specs. That will help one of the many really good horseman here to assist you in your problem. While I was writing this I see that Keith also chimed in. Like I said there are many really, really good horsmen here, the more information you can give the better help you will get.

Bondo I so appreciate everything and everyone on here I have printed all these tips and going to see trainer tonight to test all this. NOt sure of this trainers abilities but she said she thought she coudl help and she's fairly close.

Ok I finally figured out how to change font color so will quite bolding/underlining my replies

"Guess how I found you all"? I Googled "Wade cinch slipping backward causing horse to buck" or something similar and found information on Wade saddles and went from there.......Man upstairs was helping me find the saddle experts.

Bondo Bob

Edited April 6, 2010 by Huntet02

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

Huntet,

You are feeling with your hand between the horse and saddle subjectively to see if the pressure on your hand from the saddle is the same all the way down the bar. There may be no contact at all in the center if you have a really badly bridging saddle. Check with your hand under the front and back bar tips as well. Is there more pressure there? Then push down on the saddle while your fingers are under the bar tips. If you are feeling a lot of pressure there, so is she. The pressure should ease off gradually from under the saddle, not have a sharp edge that digs in. If you still have questions, then have someone walk the horse as you have your hand in the area you wonder about. The tree will have more and less pressure under different parts as they walk. The question is does it have too much at any point. Remember that what you are feeling is just the weight of the saddle. The pressure increases a lot with the rider.

Once you know where the bar edges and tips were resting on her during your ride, check for soreness in those areas specifically. Don't just push down on the muscles. That is only part of what may show you pain. Push sideways towards the spine and watch for her reactions. Normal muscle doesn't hurt even with a fair amount of pressure. She may wonder what you are doing but that reaction is different than "ouch!". You'll be able to tell.

Edited April 6, 2010 by Rod and Denise Nikkel

[Huntet02]

Huntet,

You are feeling with your hand between the horse and saddle subjectively to see if the pressure on your hand from the saddle is the same all the way down the bar. There may be no contact at all in the center if you have a really badly bridging saddle. Check with your hand under the front and back bar tips as well. Is there more pressure there? Then push down on the saddle while your fingers are under the bar tips. If you are feeling a lot of pressure there, so is she. The pressure should ease off gradually from under the saddle, not have a sharp edge that digs in. If you still have questions, then have someone walk the horse as you have your hand in the area you wonder about. The tree will have more and less pressure under different parts as they walk. The question is does it have too much at any point. Remember that what you are feeling is just the weight of the saddle. The pressure increases a lot with the rider.

Once you know where the bar edges and tips were resting on her during your ride, check for soreness in those areas specifically. Don't just push down on the muscles. That is only part of what may show you pain. Push sideways towards the spine and watch for her reactions. Normal muscle doesn't hurt even with a fair amount of pressure. She may wonder what you are doing but that reaction is different than "ouch!". You'll be able to tell.

Got it , I understand completely what to feel for. "Off topic" but we did find a pretty hardened corner where obviously something has been inserted on other side of saddle when made. Its underneath where wool is thinning possibly where left front concho/leather hardware would have been inserted. Feels like a rough edged thickness but could hurt if had thin pad on. We dont' think the mare felt this ever through the pad Ihad on her but what do I do about this esp. if I do have to go to a much thinner pad?

Edited April 6, 2010 by Huntet02