Legal Issues Selling Holsters

[troppy]

Hi Everyone,

I have a question for anyone selling holsters, is there any legal issues to be aware of when selling custom made holsters? (example, someone gun going off while breaking-in your holster or anything to that nature). I know the holsters should be tested before selling them , but you never know when something happens and you end up in a lawsuit.

Thanks!

Edited April 14, 2010 by troppy

[MBOGO]

I want to watch, good question.

[colttrainer]

I would be caring liability insurance. Not sure about south of the 49th. But in canada if you are making and selling goods & a failer or design fault results in injury you can be found liable. For that reason forming a limited company is well worth the time & expence. Covers your personal assets in case of law suit.

[Jim March]

I'm paying attention too. I'm designing a setup that allows extreme adjustability of both the ride height and tilt angle...which means from some positions, the draw could easily sweep your own body parts, esp. from a seated position or while drawing from the off-hand. One example would be an off-hand draw from a crossdraw, also known as the "prairie twist draw":

http://www.willghorm...fCrossDraw.html - in the second pic, that draw IS going to sweep both femoral arteries, his male bits and/or his lower guts, and the damnfool has his finger already on the trigger. With no warning on this page as to the hazards. THAT is problematic. In fact, the first pic has a problem too where his off-hand isn't being held behind (or worst case, above) the area the muzzle will sweep on the draw. Not as big a problem but still potentially trouble.

SERIOUS warnings about both the advantages and hazards of this sort of thing will have to be made clear...and such issues exist for other positions besides crossdraw.

I'm at a point where I'm thinking I'll need to cut a video explaining the pros and cons of each possible position, phrase it as a legal warning, stick it on a small 2gig or so USB flash memory stick and put that in it's own small pocket sewn onto the back of the holster. And I don't mind if anybody else uses that idea (my video when I do finally make it, well that's another story ).

Edited April 15, 2010 by Jim March

[K-Man]

http://www.willghorm...fCrossDraw.html - in the second pic, that draw IS going to sweep both femoral arteries, his male bits and/or his lower guts, and the damnfool has his finger already on the trigger. With no warning on this page as to the hazards. THAT is problematic. In fact, the first pic has a problem too where his off-hand isn't being held behind (or worst case, above) the area the muzzle will sweep on the draw. Not as big a problem but still potentially trouble.

It's a Single Action gun - meaning the hammer has to be cocked/engaged before it's going to fire.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Hi Everyone,

I have a question for anyone selling holsters, is there any legal issues to be aware of when selling custom made holsters? (example, someone gun going off while breaking-in your holster or anything to that nature). I know the holsters should be tested before selling them , but you never know when something happens and you end up in a lawsuit.

Thanks!

Don't go to a leather forum for legal advice; talk to a lawyer. That is the best thing you can do. It probably wouldn't hurt to look into some liability insurance either.

[Jim March]

It's a Single Action gun - meaning the hammer has to be cocked/engaged before it's going to fire.

I full well realize that - my own daily carry piece is an SA wheelgun (Ruger New Vaquero in 357).

But when sweeping body parts as crucial as those, I'm a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy - I don't want my finger on the trigger while doing so, period.

I also intend to make and at some point sell holsters of this sort that fit, say, Glocks where the warning will need to be pretty damned clear.

[MADMAX22]

That is a horrible picture IMHO. Having your fingers on the two mechanisms for firing before you clear yourself and potentially anything else you don't want to kill. Maybe its just my military training but my god man. Trigger finger control is the most important thing I can think of, especially with the modern style of firearms.

As far as advice its best to talk to a lawyer and read up on related info before making your decision on what is necessary.

Edited April 15, 2010 by MADMAX22

[Jim March]

If you very clearly warn people as to the known hazards up front, I strongly suspect that's going to help considerably if an issue comes up later.

[gregintenn]

Has anyone here ever faced liability charges related to a holster they've sold?

[K-Man]

I full well realize that - my own daily carry piece is an SA wheelgun (Ruger New Vaquero in 357).

But when sweeping body parts as crucial as those, I'm a "belt and suspenders" kind of guy - I don't want my finger on the trigger while doing so, period.

I also intend to make and at some point sell holsters of this sort that fit, say, Glocks where the warning will need to be pretty damned clear.

That's Cowboy Action Shooting/Single Action Shooting Society he's doing. If he's on the firing line, tell me what body parts he's sweeping? The rules require you to turn that hip towards the target as the gun is drawn to prevent sweeping of one's self or anyone else for that matter.

To the OP - the suggestion above that you obtain liability insurance is spot on. The suggestion to turn your business into an LLC or Corp is worthy of consideration. It would be wise to have competent legal counsel craft some sort of liability release, though that's not going to prevent anyone from bringing action against you. Search your local area for counsel who specialize in such documents. It would be, IMO, money well spent.

Edited April 15, 2010 by K-Man

[troppy]

Has anyone here ever faced liability charges related to a holster they've sold?

Great question! Hopefully we can get some input on this.

[Denster]

That's Cowboy Action Shooting/Single Action Shooting Society he's doing. If he's on the firing line, tell me what body parts he's sweeping? The rules require you to turn that hip towards the target as the gun is drawn to prevent sweeping of one's self or anyone else for that matter.

To the OP - the suggestion above that you obtain liability insurance is spot on. The suggestion to turn your business into an LLC or Corp is worthy of consideration. It would be wise to have competent legal counsel craft some sort of liability release, though that's not going to prevent anyone from bringing action against you. Search your local area for counsel who specialize in such documents. It would be, IMO, money well spent.

Actually that is a demo of Will Gormley's holsters not cowboy action shooting. The cross draw is allowed if you don't break the 160 degree rule as you stated however the prarie twist draw will get you disqualified in short order.

[K-Man]

Actually that is a demo of Will Gormley's holsters not cowboy action shooting. The cross draw is allowed if you don't break the 160 degree rule as you stated however the prarie twist draw will get you disqualified in short order.

You're correct. I had the guy sitting on the saddle in mind with respect to SASS Mounted Shooting and knowing that Will Ghormley does holsters for that venue. Crossdraw holsters are legit in that shooting arena.

[Shorts]

Setting your business entity is a real good first step to protecting yourself. I'm more than glad to have done this. I got that good piece of advice not to long ago and I sure appreciate it. It's a real small price to pay compared to what can be brought against you. Another step, while probably not applicable specifically to the business is a personal umbrella. At the very least you are protected in your innermost financial layer. Last and certainly not least is squaring away a lawyer. That will help tremendously and take the guesswork out of sorting your affairs.

Kman, I thought of you the other day when I met the extended family of my new neighbors. Play me tune guitar man?

Oh before I veer off topic, I send along specific steps to fitting holsters. First thing: UNLOAD GUN

We can all have all the time in the world spent on drills and technique but one brain fart will ruin your day, your underpants and possibly your life. Be sure to enclose a GOOD, SPECIFIC, NO NONSENSE set of instruction with all your holsters. It'd be a better plus to get your lawyer to edit a good legally written version to go with.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Shorts

[Jim March]

The Prairie Twist Draw is insanely dangerous and is flat banned at every sporting event and shooting range in the world, as it should be. It must never be practiced with a loaded gun, ever.

But...there's times it can save your life.

Example: you're carjacked from the passenger side of the car. You're either the driver or passenger, you're carrying crossdraw and you're right-handed. You have to use your right hand to fend off the attack while doing a Prairie Twist draw to bring the gun to bear against the threat. If you attempt a strongside draw you won't be able to bring the gun to bear without it first getting grabbed, bludgeoned or knifed.

Another example: as a biker I face the very real possibility of being deliberately crashed into so as to rob me - this happens. I may end up with a broken right arm. In which case the Prairie Twist can save my butt.

It's absolutely necessary to know about the Prairie Twist and practice it DRY...but never, ever with live ammo because it's the single most dangerous draw there is. Primer-only loads at the most.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Has anyone here ever faced liability charges related to a holster they've sold?

Even if they had, they would probably be advised by their lawyer not to discuss it. It would also be bad for business to bandy that information about, because it could lower the perceived value of your product, even if there was no fault of your own whatsoever. Unfortunately, you can be sued by anybody for anything, relevant or not.

[Denster]

Even if they had, they would probably be advised by their lawyer not to discuss it. It would also be bad for business to bandy that information about, because it could lower the perceived value of your product, even if there was no fault of your own whatsoever. Unfortunately, you can be sued by anybody for anything, relevant or not.

Jeff is spot on. I have to agree with him and K-Man. Liability insurance is like having a gun. Much better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

[whinewine]

Don't go to a leather forum for legal advice; talk to a lawyer. That is the best thing you can do. It probably wouldn't hurt to look into some liability insurance either.

I agree wholeheartedly with Boom: to use a crude example, if you would have a rectal problem, you'd go to a proctologist for a colonoscopy, not a leather forum; if you would need legal advice, you'd better go talk to a good lawyer, not the people here on this forum: they know as much about colonoscopies as they do about legal matters. You need to go directly to the source & not listen to hearsay.

[gregintenn]

Lawyers cost money, as does insurance. For a hobbyist like myself, and probably several more on here, it would not be feasible to purchase insurance and legal counsel to sell an occasional holster. It is a shame that the United States has gotten to the point where the work is the easiest part of earning a dollar.

[whinewine]

Lawyers cost money, as does insurance. For a hobbyist like myself, and probably several more on here, it would not be feasible to purchase insurance and legal counsel to sell an occasional holster. It is a shame that the United States has gotten to the point where the work is the easiest part of earning a dollar.

I'm sorry, but I think this discussion has gotten way too deeply into the 'what if' category. If people are so worried that they might be sued, then they had better never make something of leather to sell to someone else: what if the belt that you lovingly made breaks while Joe Doofus is running to the 'all-you-can-eat' trough at at the local swillery on gorge-it night, & he trips when his pants fall down & he lands on his face? Or what if the rivet gives way on his key fob while driving & he reaches down to pick up his keys & smashes into the back of a manure truck? Or what if he stubs his toe wearing a pair of your handmade sandals at the local rattlesnake roundup?

Is any of this possible? Yes. Remotely. Is any of it likely to result in you being sued? Highly unlikely. If you are so worried, then you don't make leather items to sell. Or you get insurance. Or you make sure your item (holster, keyfob, belt, whatever) is constructed as well as it can be, & certainly, better than is made in a third world country.

During the '70s, I made (probably) 30, 40 holsters: none came apart, none were returned & the quality stood on its own.

Edited April 16, 2010 by whinewine

[JoshDuvall]

I'm sorry, but I think this discussion has gotten way too deeply into the 'what if' category. If people are so worried that they might be sued, then they had better never make something of leather to sell to someone else: what if the belt that you lovingly made breaks while Joe Doofus is running to the 'all-you-can-eat' trough at at the local swillery on gorge-it night, & he trips when his pants fall down & he lands on his face? Or what if the rivet gives way on his key fob while driving & he reaches down to pick up his keys & smashes into the back of a manure truck? Or what if he stubs his toe wearing a pair of your handmade sandals at the local rattlesnake roundup?

Is any of this possible? Yes. Is any of it likely to result in you being sued? Highly unlikely. If you are so worried, then you don't make leather items to sell. Or you get insurance. Or you make sure your item (holster, keyfob, belt, whatever) is constructed as well as it can be, & certainly, better than is made in a third world country.

During the '70s, I made (probably) 30, 40 holsters: none came apart, none were returned & the quality stood on its own.

Unfortunately there are the cases where people get sued over the most outlandish things (because anybody can sue anybody anymore). And there will always be the guy that buys the most well made holster in the world and still shoots himself because he's an idiot. And to hide his stupidity he tries to sue the maker to pass the blame. It is NOT very feasible for the person selling the occasional holster to carry an insurance policy. But then you have no other options but hoping and praying that the person is not an idiot that keeps his finger on the trigger when he reholsters. You could have a legally written waiver printed up and signed saying that the buyer takes full responsibility. Problem, it would have to be notarized and I don't know many people that want to go and pay a dollar to sign an document just to buy a holster. Even then that document doesn't stop you from being sued it's just sometheing to help your case if you do get sued.

Case in point, even if you get sued and win, you still lose because you have to pay lawyer fees and the most important cost, your time.

[abn]

I'm not a holster-maker, nor do I care to try, but I've been following this thread with interest nonetheless.

A side question: what if you make the holster and give it to someone? Same liability, even if you don't profit?

[JoshDuvall]

I'm not a holster-maker, nor do I care to try, but I've been following this thread with interest nonetheless.

A side question: what if you make the holster and give it to someone? Same liability, even if you don't profit?

Or if the person you sold the holster to gives it to someone? I believe you hold the same liability. Not to keep on with the what ifs but ya.

[Denster]

It all gets back to what boomstick said earlier. You can be sued at any time for anything. There are a lot of attorneys who make the majority of their living off of "going away money". That is they file cases that they know without a doubt are without merit and they could not prevail if it went to court. They know that you or the bean counters with your insurance carrier, when the amount they will settle for is less than the cost of defending, will give them money to "go away" generally called a setlement without admitting fault. That is one of the reasons this Country desparately needs tort reform. However with most politicians being lawyers that's not likely to happen.