Legal Issues Selling Holsters

[olliesrevenge]

whinewine,

I'm just a newcomer to the boards who was following with interest trying to learn something about how someone who is actually in the holster business handles legal liability. I personally know no one from these boards & I had never before read any post of yours so I can safely state that I am totally without bias here. Outside of my question about insurance (which I'll save for the end), I bring nothing here except an open mind and good reading comprehension.

Initially you used some silly & obscure examples of possible liability scenarios to make a case for the fact that being sued was a remote possibility and that we should follow one of 3 courses of action...

...Or what if he stubs his toe wearing a pair of your handmade sandals at the local rattlesnake roundup? Is any of this possible? Yes. Remotely. Is any of it likely to result in you being sued? Highly unlikely. If you are so worried, then (1) you don't make leather items to sell. (2) Or you get insurance. Or (3) you make sure your item (holster, keyfob, belt, whatever) is constructed as well as it can be

An alert reader was then later to encounter this statement...

And for those here that think I have left myself legally naked, so to speak, by not having insurance, etc, let me just say that I have been sued probably 11, 12 times

... which seemed to indicate that you did not, in fact, personally carry insurance, and thus were obviously following either your 1st or 3rd pieces of advice.

Of course, it was later discovered that you evidently operate a fully registered and insured leather business (??)...

my business is registered with both the Commonwealth and the Feds ... And yes, I do carry $1,000,000 liability insurance on my business.

So, having read through all this apparent contradiction, I am left with just one question - What, exactly, was your point? You did seem to be arguing toward some end, but whatever it was somehow got lost amidst the blustery bravado of your rhetoric.

In spite of the high "signal to noise ratio" in this thread, It was interesting to learn that even very small leather shops use LLC's and liability policies.

As to my question:

For those who operate an LLC and carry insurance, you would put all the business assets (tools, etc) in the LLC, and then carry a personal umbrella policy in case any litigation made it past the LLC, is that correct?

Thanks!

Edited April 18, 2010 by olliesrevenge

[Shorts]

As to my question:

For those who operate an LLC and carry insurance, you would put all the business assets (tools, etc) in the LLC, and then carry a personal umbrella policy in case any litigation made it past the LLC, is that correct?

Thanks!

Yes.

[K-Man]

...

Let me ask you: when you first started out, did you say ..."I'm going to make holsters, even though I have never made one before, so I'm going to rush out & get $1 million in liability insurance & get an LLC BEFORE I start"?... I would venture to guess that you most likely made a few, sold a few, liked what you were doing, BEFORE you actually took the $$$ plunge- correct?

...

I know this question was initially directed to Shorts, however, that is exactly what I did. I set up the LLC and the insurance for the company at the get-go. Why? Because there's a much higher level of liability assigned with making holsters than there is with, say, making a wallet. In fact, on the insurance side, it took some amount of effort to find an underwriter because most insurers did not want to insure anything associated with guns. Horse gear/tack and saddles were another high risk assigned by the underwriters. I have $1-million worth of coverage. I'm covered by whatever I choose to make or repair. I've been able to draw other ventures/products in under the insurance coverage. This even includes the making of custom acoustic guitars. My premium and coverage amount did not change.

To me, and my legal advisors and accountant, it makes good sense to protect one's self. Insurance and setting your business up as an LLC or Corporation does that.

[TwinOaks]

Folks,

This is getting a bit heated with the various opinions about what should or should not be carried as far as insurance, LLC, etc. There is a wealth of knowledge here, and all of us are adults, (or at least pretty close to legal age) so please act accordingly. We can share our thoughts and knowledge without resorting to name calling.

Please?

If the question posed ( how many have been sued) isn't answered by someone who HAS been sued, then we should presume that either there are none...here..., or those that may have been sued do not wish to, or may not be allowed to, discuss it.

I'd like to recommend trying to contact John Bianchi, one of THE premier holster makers, and ask him. He's been doing this for a long time, and as a "big name" holster maker, may have some insight.

Edited April 20, 2010 by TwinOaks

[Lobo]

I don't carry homeowners' insurance because I look forward to my house burning down. I don't carry car insurance because I want to be in an accident. I don't carry a handgun because I want to be in a gunfight. I just find that reasonable levels of insurance are better to have and not need than to need and not have.

As a retired law enforcement officer I have experienced being a defendant in several lawsuits, having those civil claims recorded on my credit history, trying to get a mortgage or auto loan with a multi-million dollar claim hanging over my head, and relying upon legal counsel retained by others to represent those interests while also purporting to represent my interests. I have found myself bouncing around to lawyers' offices for depositions, driving halfway across the state to sit in the hallway of a courthouse all day and be sent home without testifying, all in response to a hand-written pro se lawsuit filed by a convict serving time and looking for something to entertain himself with. The last BS lawsuit that I had to deal with kept me fairly busy for 4 years after my retirement!

Here is the long and short of it: Anyone can file a lawsuit, and they don't have to prove a damned thing to do it. If you don't respond, if you don't cross all the T's and dot all the I's in a timely fashion, they will get a judgement against you. Your neighbor's wife can sue you for divorce, despite the fact that you have never been married to her, and if you fail to respond and defend the claim, you neighbor's wife can get your life savings, your retirement accounts, custody of your children, and your dog, along with judgements for ongoing payments for the rest of your life.

Protect yourself. Insurance is a very inexpensive way to provide yourself with legal representation in the event of a liability claim.

My business is incorporated under the laws of my state. I carry a business liability insurance policy (which costs much less than you might imagine), and I don't accept orders for items that show any signs of being unsafe under any conditions.

I will continue to carry homeowners' insurance, car insurance, business insurance, and a good handgun every day. Your methods may vary.

Edited April 20, 2010 by Lobo

[JoshDuvall]

I'm honestly not trying to fuel the fire on this subject but...

I think one of the things that might be sitting uncomfortably in peoples stomachs over this issue and contributing to the argument over carrying insurance or not is cost. After all if it's within your budget why wouldn't you carry insurance on your business.

So if it's ok to ask those of you that do carry insurance, how much do you pay (monthly, annualy, etc.)? This might help give people an average that would help them weigh out the costs and find out if they do enough business to pay for insurance without going in the hole over a couple holsters/sheaths. It might help people figure out at what point their business will have grown enough to start carrying a policy.

And yes I understand that it would cost you alot more to be sued without a policy than with one but for the sake of the question we can leave that out.

Also Lobo pointed out a very good point. Be aware of who you're doing business with. I know you can't judge a book by its cover but you can usually get a pretty good idea about a person by talking with them about the order they are wanting to make. I've come to learn that you can usually find out alot about an order or sale and how its going to come out from the first time you talk with that person. If problems arise from the start, they're probably going to show up again later and you'll end up spending more time and money with that one customer and taking a loss on the order when you could have spent that time on another. This isn't always the case but it seems to be the majority of the time.

Sorry to get away from my original question.

[LawDawg]

There is an aire of liability in all the products that we make. I have run into this in saddlemaking as well as holsters. The best way to assure that accountability is not your is to have the individual sign a waiver, or simply attach a card stating that the liability falls upon the user, and that the manufacturer only assumes responsibility of any manufacturing defects. I have designed and manufactured holsters for duty, pleasure and concealment and everyone of them leaving my shopare tagged with cards making this statement. Of course there is probably a lawyer that would find a loophole that would convict, however, by attaching the card to the product, the consumer has to physically remove it, making them liable for misuse. My cards also state that the product id designed for professional use, and that the intensional misuse of this product voids any warranty or repair. Add on the back side the care instructions for leather and they usually keep the card for future reference. I know each country differs, and we cannot forget about state laws, as well as county and local ordinances. Those just place more confusion, so don't concern yourself... I hope this is as clear as mud...

Daniel

[Jim March]

I had a talk with an attorney friend on this point, one who knows product liability fairly well.

In my case I'm particularly worried because some of the positions on the belt my setup allows are not just unconventional but have some extra hazards. Muzzle pointed slightly into the hip area when seated for example, or off-hand draws that cause the muzzle to cross not just your body but dangerous areas of your bod - femoral arteries, lower gut, genitals, etc.

Providing explicit warning as to the hazards and benefits of each possible option IS a defense against getting successfully sued. It does help in court. Stands to reason, that's likely why the most lawsuit-adverse gun manufacturer (Ruger) does the infamous "billboards" on the barrel.

So...if you can't afford insurance, you might want to spend the time to do a written or video manual of operations, optimal draw types and safety information. Do it as a video, post it on youtube, put a link on a piece of paper with the holster. Or put the video on a CD. Whatever. I have it on good authority it'll help.

[iwannabeacowboy]

Another one who not wanting to add fuel to the fire-but, would you also add in those that make knife sheaths? No trigger finger other finger to worry about. Cross draw/behind the back/hip carry/normal position sheaths. All of these have the same potential for going wrong. I do leather as a hobby not a business. Yes I've made a holster and various knife sheaths. I guess the possibility of someone pulling a wallet I made and dropping it, then tripping over it and blame me because I made the wallet is possible. Once I make the move from hobby to business then I'll get insurance to cover it.

charlie

i did google"holster makers sued" results Results 1 - 10 of about 70,100 for holster makers sued. (0.17 seconds)

lots of strange stuff out their

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=988087 it does happen

http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-112097.html design change because cops were shotting themselves in the foot.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2343934/posts part way down trigger guard blamed

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/chavez-223315-gun-holster.html kid shoots cop

[Shorts]

I recall a case where a guy fell down and stabbed himself with the knife he was carrying in a nylon sheath. I can't remember the details but I do know it isn't unheard of.

Another one who not wanting to add fuel to the fire-but, would you also add in those that make knife sheaths? No trigger finger other finger to worry about. Cross draw/behind the back/hip carry/normal position sheaths. All of these have the same potential for going wrong. I do leather as a hobby not a business. Yes I've made a holster and various knife sheaths. I guess the possibility of someone pulling a wallet I made and dropping it, then tripping over it and blame me because I made the wallet is possible. Once I make the move from hobby to business then I'll get insurance to cover it.

charlie

i did google"holster makers sued" results Results 1 - 10 of about 70,100 for holster makers sued. (0.17 seconds)

lots of strange stuff out their

http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=988087 it does happen

http://forums.officer.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-112097.html design change because cops were shotting themselves in the foot.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2343934/posts part way down trigger guard blamed

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/chavez-223315-gun-holster.html kid shoots cop