Legal Issues Selling Holsters

[Saddlebag]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving? In Canada, so far, one would have to prove negligence on the maker's part. eg. I was away. Legal age teen had come to stay with my under age teen over night. They decided to go horseback riding-my horses. Older teen came off and wound up with a few sore muscles. His family considered suing. Family was told no one forced their son to get on our horse and he did so without permission, that I could charge him for stealing my horse. That was the last of it.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Saddlebag

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving?

A holster in and of itself implies a specific function, so I doubt that would fly even if you had a legal disclaimer. I also think that portraying your gear as art work would be very bad marketing. Even if you sold it as artwork, that doesn't keep you from spending yourself poor just to prove you weren't liable for the misuse of your "art work".

My advice is still the same; ask a competent lawyer if you want legal advice. Ask leatherworker.net members if you want to improve your craftsmanship.

[Shorts]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving? In Canada, so far, one would have to prove negligence on the maker's part. eg. I was away. Legal age teen had come to stay with my under age teen over night. They decided to go horseback riding-my horses. Older teen came off and wound up with a few sore muscles. His family considered suing. Family was told no one forced their son to get on our horse and he did so without permission, that I could charge him for stealing my horse. That was the last of it.

I don't know, I'm not a lawyer in Canada. Or a lawyer in the States.

[troop]

I don't know, I'm not a lawyer in Canada. Or a lawyer in the States.

Monica, lawyer or not, you're one heck of holster maker.

Tony

[abn]

I guess the possibility of someone pulling a wallet I made and dropping it, then tripping over it and blame me because I made the wallet is possible.

[olliesrevenge]

http://www.ocregiste...un-holster.html

Thanks for the links. This particular story is strange on so many levels: A (then) 35 year old "retired" LAPD officer (??), sues Glock, the holster maker and the retail store that sold him the holster, because he failed to keep "his service-revolver, a Glock 21" out of his toddlers hands. Wow. It sounds like he was shot in the back through the seat of his Ford Ranger, maybe he should have sued Ford too for failing to design a seat that would stop bullets?

I think if I ever wind up selling a holster I'll include a copy of the 4 rules of gun safety as taught by Jeff Cooper at Gunsite -

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.

It might also be worthwhile to include a warning that the user should ensure that nothing other than the gun enters the holster whenever re-holstering, especially with Glocks, M&Ps, DA revolvers, or any other pistol that can be fired without manipulating some type of external safety...

"...When he holstered his weapon the draw string attachment (from his jacket) became lodged in [the] trigger guard. This deputy then went some period of time and went home. When he removed the paddle holster the draw string pulled tight and discharged the weapon with the firearm in the holster. The deputy was shot in the outer thigh and buttocks..."

jacket drawstring ND

This same type of "jacket drawstring" Negligent Discharge happened to a Seattle Police officer (they carry Glock 22s) several years ago, but I can't find a link.

[bitone40]

"...When he holstered his weapon the draw string attachment (from his jacket) became lodged in [the] trigger guard. This deputy then went some period of time and went home. When he removed the paddle holster the draw string pulled tight and discharged the weapon with the firearm in the holster. The deputy was shot in the outer thigh and buttocks..."

jacket drawstring ND

This same type of "jacket drawstring" Negligent Discharge happened to a Seattle Police officer (they carry Glock 22s) several years ago, but I can't find a link.

this would never happen to a XD , Quick story, I have a friend who bought is wife a 10mm glock g33 I think and she was using a small of the back holster and the 1st time she carried it LOADED she shot her butt cheeck , she had practiced and 100 times with it unloaded and it worked fine , he tried to sell me the gun but it already had the voodoo's on it so i didnt want it

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

this would never happen to a XD

No offense, but that is a completely ignorant statement. What kind of safety redundancy do you think the XD has to prevent an OPERATOR ERROR? The grip safety is depressed while the pistol is being inserted in the holster, so the XD would have the same trigger safety as the Glock, only with a lighter pull weight.

Your friend's wife most likely shot herself due to negligence, probably by keeping her finger on the trigger as she re-holstered, or possibly by not making sure there were no obstructions or clothing in the mouth of the holster before inserting the pistol. Any pistol will fire that way (including the much vaunted 1911) if the user fails to operate it according to the manufacturers intentions or follow established safety precautions.

Unfortunately for us, the same sort of people who injure themselves through negligence sometimes refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions, and in some cases pass the blame to another party via a lawsuit.

[WillGhormley]

Hey Folks,

I've noticed my name bein' mentioned under this topic before. I've bit my tongue and resisted saying anything. However, a link to this topic showed up on my search engine register again today, and I thought I would weigh in.

When actors are riding my saddles in movies, I carry liability insurance. The chances of my workmanship or materials failing on a saddle I provide for a movie are non-existent. The chance of some wrangler not knowin' how to properly adjust an authentic 1800s saddle is probably a little higher. The chance of my gear bein' damaged on the set and becoming unsafe are higher still. The chance of some soft Hollywood beefcake fallin' off a horse is probably pretty good. From my dealings with the Hollywood crowd, I know many of them to be less than honest. So, when I have saddles in a movie, I carry insurance just in case.

Now, in my dealings with real cowboys, I'd trust them with my life and my horse. In my dealings with Western Action Shootin' Cowboys, they can cover my six any day. In my experience, it is rare to find a shooter who would shoot a man in the back. I'm not worried about bein' sued by some cowboy. So, I don't carry liability insurance as a rule.

Now, for the question of holster makers bein' liable for someone shootin' themselves: I've carried loaded weapons for over 40 years. I've never shot myself, and I've done some pretty stupid things. But, more importantly, I've never shot anyone else on accident.

I make reproductions of Old West cowboy gear, including accurate and period correct holsters and gun belts. Since all of my gear is custom made according to my customer's desires, they are in absolute control of what they get. If any of my gear fails because of poor quality, and someone is injured, I should be responsible for the damage I've caused. That 'aint happenin'...ever. Nothin' I make will ever fail because of poor workmanship or quality. Each part of my rigs spends hours in my hands. I know if somethin' isn't up to the task and it doesn't end up in the finished product.

If some shooter ruins one of my holsters in a horse accident, fallin' off a cliff, squeezin' through the back window of some shady house of ill repute in the middle of the night, and continues to use a dangerously damaged rig, it's not my fault. If they end up shootin' themselves, or God forbid, some innocent bystander, that's still not my fault. If they handle a gun in an unsafe manner, regardless of the condition of the holster they yank the iron from, that's not my fault.

Now, as to the question of the safety of the "prairie twist" draw: Playin' with loaded guns 'aint safe to begin with. Guns are made to kill. They work pretty good at their designed purpose. If you are goin' to play with a tool that is intended to kill, you had best have your head where you can get fresh air. If you are incompetent, there isn't any holster that is goin' to make your gun-handlin' safe. Does that mean you can sue the guy who made the holster you yanked your gun out of? Sure. Why not? We live in a society that avoids personal responsibility. Why not penalize someone else for your own incompetence? But, that's not the "Cowboy Way".

The bottom line is, guns are made to kill. They are not safe. The only thing that can make a gun safe is the way it is handled. The only one who is responsible for safe gun handling is the one handling the gun. If some guy shoots his dangling reproductive parts off, it just proves Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. I've carried my guns cross-draw nearly all my life and have eight kids and two grandkids to vouch for the safety of the practice. But, it wasn't the holster that made it safe, it was me.

If some ignorant mamma's boy wants to sue me because he doesn't know how to safely draw a weapon from one of my holsters, have at it. After raisin' eight kids, I've got nuthin' to loose but my 26 year-old truck...and my guns. If a guy shoots himself on accident, I'm not worried about him gettin' my guns on purpose. All of you guys who think suin' folks is the answer to un-safe gun handlin', you need to man-up. Take responsibility for your own selves and quit tryin' to find someone to compensate for your own poor judgment.

I can't say it any better than John Wayne, "Life is tough. It's tougher when you're stupid!"

Will

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Will, I don't think anyone here believes that suing someone is the answer, nor do I believe that my workmanship is at risk of causing someone injury. I may even agree with you 100% on what you said about taking responsibility for your actions, too, but you know all that means squat if I haven't taken precautions against dishonest, irresponsible people. As a lawyer once told me "you may be in the right, and you may know you're in the right, but that doesn't mean that you won't have to spend $20,000 proving you're in the right, and that's the way it is".

I admire your stance on the matter at hand, but I would never assume that folks in the shooting sports (even the sass folks) aren't liable to sue if they get in a bad way. There are plenty of people that were raised right and grew up believing in fellas like Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, but there are also plenty of guys in the world that act more like Butch Cassidy and Jesse James, too. Sometimes you don't know what a person will do until they are put in a situation, and they can really surprise you.

[WillGhormley]

Hey Boomstickholsters,

You are absolutely right. There's dishonest folks aplenty in all walks of life. That's one of the reasons I have a carry permit. But, I refuse to build my life around the bad things other people might do. Now, that may not be the smart way to look at it. That may not be the practical way to go about it. That may not be the safest way to do it. But, if I was smart, practical and played it safe, I wouldn't have spent twelve years in the infantry or be a small business man.

Will

[katsass]

Hey Boomstickholsters,

You are absolutely right. There's dishonest folks aplenty in all walks of life. That's one of the reasons I have a carry permit. But, I refuse to build my life around the bad things other people might do. Now, that may not be the smart way to look at it. That may not be the practical way to go about it. That may not be the safest way to do it. But, if I was smart, practical and played it safe, I wouldn't have spent twelve years in the infantry or be a small business man.

Will

Mr Ghormley, you don't know me from Adam, while I only know of you by reputation but, damn well said. Your statement mimicked my thoughts as I read many of these replies, but I refused to become embroiled in it.

I spent five years in the Navy as a helicopter air crewman.....1961 to 1966. Subsequent to that I spent 35 years as a LEO, then retired when it became evident that I was just not quick enough to possibly keep my partner from harm...or possibly myself.....while on the street.

I had an experience while still a rookie that made forget any worry about liability. I had made a friend and co-worker (Deputy Sheriff) an off duty holster for his (personal) duty weapon, a 6" Colt Python. Louie was a big guy. Less than a week later I arrived at work to find the graveyard shift still in uniform and deeply involved in serious hushed conversation. Upon asking the normal question, "what the hell is going on?", the duty Sgt. walked over to me, looked me in the eye and, VERY seriously stated, " Louie was shot last night, he's in the hospital and because of your damned holster".......he stopped, looked at the look on my dead white face, and started to laugh! He finished......" because of that holster he's alive and asking the nurses for sponge baths! Louie had always carried his pet Python to and from work in an old leather zippered folder, and he would just toss it on the passenger seat of his car when he headed home. He had stopped at a local stop and rob for gas and, while outside the car, a local bad guy drove up and popped him with one shot from a 12 ga. sawed off shotgun...loaded with #6 bird shot. The bad guy was quickly caught and admitted that when Louie grabbed a gun from under his jacket and shot back at him, it scared him so bad he wet his pants. Louie had fired blind because his sunglasses stopped some pellets but he couldn't see through them. He didn't hit the bad guy, just the car. My wife took a number of orders from other deputies wives for off duty holsters shortly after that. Mike

[Jim March]

Mr Ghormley,

I didn't mean to link to your website in order to critique you or your gear. Far from it. We agree completely that the Prairie Twist is a serious benefit of crossdraw rigs in general and it is known to have been used in the Old West.

My problem (and I do mean MY problem, for ME not you) is that I'm in the design stages of making a holster meant for "street carry" - meaning daily CCW or open carry - that can be adjusted as a crossdraw rig. Three days ago I finished a proof-of-concept working prototype:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=24417

As you can see, it can be set up much like yours is.

People who carry "on the street" daily are spending a lot more time with their rigs than the cowboy action crowd. Worse, we might have to execute a draw "for real" against a real threat, not a timer. I feel that it's important to inform any potential customer (once I get to that point) about the risks of the Prairie Twist draw and risks associated with other "unconventional carry methods" such as appendix carry (which can point a barrel at your femoral artery on the strongside draw if you're sitting down).

I don't think such warnings are near as critical in the world of cowboy action and stage leather because safety issues in both venues are monitored much more closely to say the least.

[horsewreck]

I just happened across this topic and thought I would reply to the question. I have been building and selling holsters for over 30 years, though my main product is saddlery. In those years I have not carried any special holster liability insurance. I have built for CHL holders, mounted action shooters, collectors, ranchers, law enforcement, and so on. each holster is custom made to the buyers wishes, so I am contracting to build what they ask for. That having been said I do inform them of any potential safety issues in what they are asking me to build. Most of this discussion concerns retention of the firearm, safety of the basic design, comfort, and practicality of the carrying location and position of the weapon. We will point out any safety issue we see in what they want and will try to direct them toward a design they can carry happily for many years. If a person requests us to build an unsafe holster we will decline the job. We even remind even the "experienced" of the basics like put the holster on the belt then put the gun in the holster. If as the original author stated a holster needs to be broken in that is best done with an empty gun. The problem with liability insurance is how much is enough if you carry a half million dollars what keeps the damaged person from seeking a million? Disclaimers are something that can be used and often are used in the saddlery buisness, where you state in writing that the activity is inheritly dangerous and the user is responsible for checking and maintaining their equipment. Anyone wanting to use a disclaimer should consult a lawyer. I hope this is of some value...........