Legal Issues Selling Holsters

[Saddlebag]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving? In Canada, so far, one would have to prove negligence on the maker's part. eg. I was away. Legal age teen had come to stay with my under age teen over night. They decided to go horseback riding-my horses. Older teen came off and wound up with a few sore muscles. His family considered suing. Family was told no one forced their son to get on our horse and he did so without permission, that I could charge him for stealing my horse. That was the last of it.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Saddlebag

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving?

A holster in and of itself implies a specific function, so I doubt that would fly even if you had a legal disclaimer. I also think that portraying your gear as art work would be very bad marketing. Even if you sold it as artwork, that doesn't keep you from spending yourself poor just to prove you weren't liable for the misuse of your "art work".

My advice is still the same; ask a competent lawyer if you want legal advice. Ask leatherworker.net members if you want to improve your craftsmanship.

[Shorts]

What if it were sold as a piece of artwork, after all you are an artisan. What's the diff. it it's oils on canvas or leather carving? In Canada, so far, one would have to prove negligence on the maker's part. eg. I was away. Legal age teen had come to stay with my under age teen over night. They decided to go horseback riding-my horses. Older teen came off and wound up with a few sore muscles. His family considered suing. Family was told no one forced their son to get on our horse and he did so without permission, that I could charge him for stealing my horse. That was the last of it.

I don't know, I'm not a lawyer in Canada. Or a lawyer in the States.

[troop]

I don't know, I'm not a lawyer in Canada. Or a lawyer in the States.

Monica, lawyer or not, you're one heck of holster maker.

Tony

[abn]

I guess the possibility of someone pulling a wallet I made and dropping it, then tripping over it and blame me because I made the wallet is possible.

[olliesrevenge]

http://www.ocregiste...un-holster.html

Thanks for the links. This particular story is strange on so many levels: A (then) 35 year old "retired" LAPD officer (??), sues Glock, the holster maker and the retail store that sold him the holster, because he failed to keep "his service-revolver, a Glock 21" out of his toddlers hands. Wow. It sounds like he was shot in the back through the seat of his Ford Ranger, maybe he should have sued Ford too for failing to design a seat that would stop bullets?

I think if I ever wind up selling a holster I'll include a copy of the 4 rules of gun safety as taught by Jeff Cooper at Gunsite -

RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT.

It might also be worthwhile to include a warning that the user should ensure that nothing other than the gun enters the holster whenever re-holstering, especially with Glocks, M&Ps, DA revolvers, or any other pistol that can be fired without manipulating some type of external safety...

"...When he holstered his weapon the draw string attachment (from his jacket) became lodged in [the] trigger guard. This deputy then went some period of time and went home. When he removed the paddle holster the draw string pulled tight and discharged the weapon with the firearm in the holster. The deputy was shot in the outer thigh and buttocks..."

jacket drawstring ND

This same type of "jacket drawstring" Negligent Discharge happened to a Seattle Police officer (they carry Glock 22s) several years ago, but I can't find a link.

[bitone40]

"...When he holstered his weapon the draw string attachment (from his jacket) became lodged in [the] trigger guard. This deputy then went some period of time and went home. When he removed the paddle holster the draw string pulled tight and discharged the weapon with the firearm in the holster. The deputy was shot in the outer thigh and buttocks..."

jacket drawstring ND

This same type of "jacket drawstring" Negligent Discharge happened to a Seattle Police officer (they carry Glock 22s) several years ago, but I can't find a link.

this would never happen to a XD , Quick story, I have a friend who bought is wife a 10mm glock g33 I think and she was using a small of the back holster and the 1st time she carried it LOADED she shot her butt cheeck , she had practiced and 100 times with it unloaded and it worked fine , he tried to sell me the gun but it already had the voodoo's on it so i didnt want it

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

this would never happen to a XD

No offense, but that is a completely ignorant statement. What kind of safety redundancy do you think the XD has to prevent an OPERATOR ERROR? The grip safety is depressed while the pistol is being inserted in the holster, so the XD would have the same trigger safety as the Glock, only with a lighter pull weight.

Your friend's wife most likely shot herself due to negligence, probably by keeping her finger on the trigger as she re-holstered, or possibly by not making sure there were no obstructions or clothing in the mouth of the holster before inserting the pistol. Any pistol will fire that way (including the much vaunted 1911) if the user fails to operate it according to the manufacturers intentions or follow established safety precautions.

Unfortunately for us, the same sort of people who injure themselves through negligence sometimes refuse to accept responsibility for their own actions, and in some cases pass the blame to another party via a lawsuit.

[WillGhormley]

Hey Folks,

I've noticed my name bein' mentioned under this topic before. I've bit my tongue and resisted saying anything. However, a link to this topic showed up on my search engine register again today, and I thought I would weigh in.

When actors are riding my saddles in movies, I carry liability insurance. The chances of my workmanship or materials failing on a saddle I provide for a movie are non-existent. The chance of some wrangler not knowin' how to properly adjust an authentic 1800s saddle is probably a little higher. The chance of my gear bein' damaged on the set and becoming unsafe are higher still. The chance of some soft Hollywood beefcake fallin' off a horse is probably pretty good. From my dealings with the Hollywood crowd, I know many of them to be less than honest. So, when I have saddles in a movie, I carry insurance just in case.

Now, in my dealings with real cowboys, I'd trust them with my life and my horse. In my dealings with Western Action Shootin' Cowboys, they can cover my six any day. In my experience, it is rare to find a shooter who would shoot a man in the back. I'm not worried about bein' sued by some cowboy. So, I don't carry liability insurance as a rule.

Now, for the question of holster makers bein' liable for someone shootin' themselves: I've carried loaded weapons for over 40 years. I've never shot myself, and I've done some pretty stupid things. But, more importantly, I've never shot anyone else on accident.

I make reproductions of Old West cowboy gear, including accurate and period correct holsters and gun belts. Since all of my gear is custom made according to my customer's desires, they are in absolute control of what they get. If any of my gear fails because of poor quality, and someone is injured, I should be responsible for the damage I've caused. That 'aint happenin'...ever. Nothin' I make will ever fail because of poor workmanship or quality. Each part of my rigs spends hours in my hands. I know if somethin' isn't up to the task and it doesn't end up in the finished product.

If some shooter ruins one of my holsters in a horse accident, fallin' off a cliff, squeezin' through the back window of some shady house of ill repute in the middle of the night, and continues to use a dangerously damaged rig, it's not my fault. If they end up shootin' themselves, or God forbid, some innocent bystander, that's still not my fault. If they handle a gun in an unsafe manner, regardless of the condition of the holster they yank the iron from, that's not my fault.

Now, as to the question of the safety of the "prairie twist" draw: Playin' with loaded guns 'aint safe to begin with. Guns are made to kill. They work pretty good at their designed purpose. If you are goin' to play with a tool that is intended to kill, you had best have your head where you can get fresh air. If you are incompetent, there isn't any holster that is goin' to make your gun-handlin' safe. Does that mean you can sue the guy who made the holster you yanked your gun out of? Sure. Why not? We live in a society that avoids personal responsibility. Why not penalize someone else for your own incompetence? But, that's not the "Cowboy Way".

The bottom line is, guns are made to kill. They are not safe. The only thing that can make a gun safe is the way it is handled. The only one who is responsible for safe gun handling is the one handling the gun. If some guy shoots his dangling reproductive parts off, it just proves Darwin's theory of Natural Selection. I've carried my guns cross-draw nearly all my life and have eight kids and two grandkids to vouch for the safety of the practice. But, it wasn't the holster that made it safe, it was me.

If some ignorant mamma's boy wants to sue me because he doesn't know how to safely draw a weapon from one of my holsters, have at it. After raisin' eight kids, I've got nuthin' to loose but my 26 year-old truck...and my guns. If a guy shoots himself on accident, I'm not worried about him gettin' my guns on purpose. All of you guys who think suin' folks is the answer to un-safe gun handlin', you need to man-up. Take responsibility for your own selves and quit tryin' to find someone to compensate for your own poor judgment.

I can't say it any better than John Wayne, "Life is tough. It's tougher when you're stupid!"

Will

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Will, I don't think anyone here believes that suing someone is the answer, nor do I believe that my workmanship is at risk of causing someone injury. I may even agree with you 100% on what you said about taking responsibility for your actions, too, but you know all that means squat if I haven't taken precautions against dishonest, irresponsible people. As a lawyer once told me "you may be in the right, and you may know you're in the right, but that doesn't mean that you won't have to spend $20,000 proving you're in the right, and that's the way it is".

I admire your stance on the matter at hand, but I would never assume that folks in the shooting sports (even the sass folks) aren't liable to sue if they get in a bad way. There are plenty of people that were raised right and grew up believing in fellas like Gene Autry and Roy Rogers, but there are also plenty of guys in the world that act more like Butch Cassidy and Jesse James, too. Sometimes you don't know what a person will do until they are put in a situation, and they can really surprise you.