Leather Armor "hardening"

[druid]

Well, I have a really odd request here...lol.

I am a lover of paintball and have been since 1986. For those that don't know much/anything about it, paintballs are 68 caliber gelatin spheres, filled with FDA approved food dye and for all intents and purposes, "soap." They are fired from a paintball marker at up to 300fps, which is about 202mph.

I have a field 'persona' which is my name...'druid' - this persona includes wearing [besides the required safety gear] a Kilt, greaves and vambraces. I want to make two items to complete my persona:

1. A 'reversed' Coat of Plates like the Gaberdine pictured

2. Leather "helmet" that covers my field mask.

Pic of the Gaberdine

Now...I want to 'reverse' the design. Instead of the 'plates' being on the inside, I want to mount them on the outside. The leather won't be so "thick"...perhaps in the 8-10oz range. I mean I could use 16oz but I'm trying to cut down on weight, as well as cost.

I will use brass or copper rivets in the corners to attach the 2" x 3" plates to the garment underneath. Also, the armor will only come to my waist, not to extend down to the upper thigh like in the pic. The front and back plates will cover my like firearm body armor....completely covering my front and back and join with belts/buckles on my sides.

The Helm is also going to be made from leather and will cover the entire mask. It will look sort of like the Corinthian Helm you saw in the movie "300"....with the exception that I want to tool Celtic designs in it.

My question is:

Which is the best way to harden and protect the leather from;

1. water and perspiration

2. Paintball strikes and staining

???

I've read up on water-hardening, as well as paraffin wax-hardening the leather. The problems I face are the fact that it gets hot in the summer and I will perspire....as well as some paintballs will stain all kinds of garments. To me, water hardening the leather won't protect it from water/sweat or paintball staining...and waxing it will just "melt" and soften in the sun and heat.

OR

Is there another method of hardening the leather into "armor" AND protect it from these things? Some type of liquid solution that I can soak the leather into and accomplish these goals? On my greaves and vambraces, I used "Mod Podge" to coat the leather but it's soft and supple leather...not hard 'armor' leather.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[Suze]

http://www.legiodraconis.com/

http://www.armourarchive.org/

I am not an armor person but these two sites and message boards should give you just about all the info you need.

and wax hardening isn't so "melty" as you think it might be.

I play in the Society for Creative Anachronism and a lot of people wear leather armor and I don't notice it melting in the sun.

you also might want to look into japanese plate armor, it is made up of little plaques laced together, and there are a lot of sources for buying the plates. (Most are plastic barral and are VERY hard. Done right you might not even need the "regulation" paintball armor)

[druid]

http://www.legiodraconis.com/

http://www.armourarchive.org/

I am not an armor person but these two sites and message boards should give you just about all the info you need.

and wax hardening isn't so "melty" as you think it might be.

I play in the Society for Creative Anachronism and a lot of people wear leather armor and I don't notice it melting in the sun.

you also might want to look into japanese plate armor, it is made up of little plaques laced together, and there are a lot of sources for buying the plates. (Most are plastic barral and are VERY hard. Done right you might not even need the "regulation" paintball armor)

Thanks Suze...I'll check them out.

In regards to the "melting"...that was just something I thought of on my own. I've been to fairs were the SCA fighters were doing their thing but in truth, I've noticed that they spar for up to 15 minutes at a time and then trade out 'warriors.' Paintball is a little more time-intensive than that...depending on the circumstances/type of scenario, we can literally be out in the direct summer sun for hours at a time. I'm worried that in waxing the leather, it will soften and allow the 'plates' to deform.

The "armor" is to be more aesthetic than 'practical' - meaning that yes, it will provide protection simply because of the nature of its construction, it's more for the "affect" of other players seeing me and getting an "awe man, that's COOL" type of response...lol.

While I did look to other armor designs, including the Japanese you described, none really match my "druid"/Scottish field personal quite like the Coat of Plates/Gaberdine does.

Paintball does not require any type of 'armor'...with the exception of certified goggle/mask systems specifically designed for paintball. Any armor we wear is purely by choice. In this particular case, I want to make my 'armor' and incorporate pod and air tank holders on the back because those items are needed for playing the game.

I actually thought about using Kydex but I wanted it a bit more 'realistic' for the 'look'

[yan]

Maybe you sould try 1 or 2 small pieces of the leather you are gone use, harden them and left them for a couple of hours in a saline solution (water with 0.91%salt).

This should be a lot harder on the leather then a match of paintball.

I do simulation of medieval armor, I could spend 12 hrs in a row running and fighting at 30 C (about 80 F).

I use cuir bouilli (with water not wax) and a couple of coat of varnish. So far I did'nt have any probleme with my armor.

You said you want to use a leather greek style helm over your field mask, The probleme with those was the perception. It reduce the field of vision (especially if you put it over something else) and the noise. For close combat in a open field it's not a big issues but for range attack and ambush situation those could be a big probleme. Anyways it would still look very cool, please post a picture of your kit when it is done.

[druid]

ote name='yan' date='07 May 2010 - 07:40 AM' timestamp='1273232418' post='153614']

Maybe you sould try 1 or 2 small pieces of the leather you are gone use, harden them and left them for a couple of hours in a saline solution (water with 0.91%salt).

This should be a lot harder on the leather then a match of paintball.

I do simulation of medieval armor, I could spend 12 hrs in a row running and fighting at 30 C (about 80 F).

I use cuir bouilli (with water not wax) and a couple of coat of varnish. So far I did'nt have any probleme with my armor.

You said you want to use a leather greek style helm over your field mask, The probleme with those was the perception. It reduce the field of vision (especially if you put it over something else) and the noise. For close combat in a open field it's not a big issues but for range attack and ambush situation those could be a big probleme. Anyways it would still look very cool, please post a picture of your kit when it is done.

Thanks. I will try the salt solution.

Yeah, the ferocity of paintball games is dependent upon the "game of the day." Most times, it's "walk-on" games of teams about 20 vs 20 but there are large scenarios where it's as large as 2000 vs 2000 [invasion of Normandy recreations]. I'm making this set up for a future Oklahoma D-Day [the game I just described] and the event is in OK, in June, and the average temps can get to 104*F with an 80% humidity. I'm concerned that this type of weather will affect the "look" of the leather by heating it up [by sun and my heat/perspiration discharge] and distorting it. I read up on the cuir bouilli process and find it to be the most simple and historically accurate method of making the armor but the reason I investigated the paraffin method was to give it a layer of outside protection from paint staining. With my concerns on the State's weather tendencies, I was concerned that the wax would soften, allowing the armor plates to bend and perhaps, crack the wax finish...

You say you use varnish on your armor. That's interesting. Do you find that it cracks or flakes when struck with instruments? Or even over time? How well does it take a re-varnish? Does it "wrinkle" when applied over [re-varnishing] a previous coat?

I'd have to scan my armor sketches into my HD for you to see, but I have been working on the helm. Now, this helm fits over top of the face shield/goggle for paintball. The base is Kydex and will have the leather cemented to it. The leather will be a thinner tooling leather so I can carve Celtic designs into it, like you see on my cardboard templates:

And the top/crown of my skull will be covered as well. I plan on replicating a "pony tail" mount like this one [taken from a movie] :

...with similar intent but different design. I'll be using a horse tail as the "hair" exiting the mount. The hair will be approx 16" long, have a few braided strands in it and very small skulls as the braid locks at the bottom.

The armor itself front and back, is made from the plates, riveted to an undergarment that actually makes the vest form. Think about police body armor . The carrier that the panels use will be the template for the undergarment.

Now, on my lower back will be pod holders. These are pouches that hold cylindrical tubes, that hold < 180 paintballs per tube. I need at least 6 but would prefer 8.

I'll form the leather over these tubes and use Chicago Screws to hold them in place around the border. That way, I can remove the holders for cleaning/servicing.

My air tank will be mounted horizontally across my shoulder blades. . This too will be mounted with Chicago Screws.

Here are pictures of my paintball "tactical' vest to give you an idea of what I'm talking about:

Pods

tank - in this pic, you see two vertical tanks. I'm going to make it so that it's one tank and horizontal instead:

...and the prize at the end of the day is my crossbow:

Concealed inside the "crossbow" facade is a paintball marker. My design loads from underneath, instead of the typical top-feeding markers. Imagine me coming over a castle rampart shooting players like this.....

Edited May 7, 2010 by druid

[Suze]

the SCA folk at ren fairs and such are Demoing what we do -- there is a huge event in Pennslavania every summer called Pennsic War (www.pennsicwar.org)

in August in 100 degree heat -- they armor up and stay that way most of the day. (trust me some days a "strong man" is NOT good to find -- or follow)

If leather armor got all squishy in the sun they wouldn't be wearing it. Our rules and regs for keeping people safe are very strict.

[yan]

Your crossbow is really good looking .

Since you're going for the ''brigandine look'' you could use chrome tan softer leather for the base veste. I did that in my first armor and got 2 good year use (it still good, I just maid a better looking one).

I don't use my armor for paint ball so I don't need to removed trace of paint on it.

For the varnish I used 5 coat of the eco-flow super shene finish on both side of the leather. It's ok, look a little beat up after a many use (but that's the look I was going for), no trace of crack and it has been use at least once under heavy rain for over 3 hrs.

I tested a couple of product :latex base, water base and oil base varnish but this one gave me a better result.

If any one discover something better please post.

[Peter Ellis]

A couple of things. First, why do you want to put the plates on the outside of your armour, instead of as shown in the first picture ? They will trap bits of paint and paint ball, and, of course, pretty well guarantee that you get breaks if the ball touches you. Plus it's not like any historic example of armour (and for good reason, since the plates on the outside would catch spear points, sword edges, arrows...)

Second, I recommend for your purposes you harden your leather by soaking it in acrylic floor polish. It works quite nicely, should make it easy to clean off the paint that isn't trapped in the crevices ;0 and is really easy to do.

I make hardened leather armour, using various techniques. The acrylic polish is easy to renew, relatively water resistant (nothing is "proof") and the best bang for your buck in terms of ease of production and cost.

Leather hardened by dampening it and then baking at ~150F does not soften up when it gets wet, the structure of the leather has fundamentally changed. But it does break down over time.

[hivemind]

Honestly, I'd suggest a 4-6 ounce garment leather for the "coat", and use cut up plates of pickle barrel or kydex for the inside coat of plates part. Super stiff and super light, and unseen, so who cares if it's plastic. I give a second vote for putting the plates inside as well. It's historically correct and a billion times more functional than having them outside, like Peter says.

[Charke]

I LARP a lot in leather armor. I've been in heat and rain and both will affect your armor. Waxing and waterproofing help but the thickness of the leather seems to be the most important element. All the thin elements "wilt" first in negative conditions.

Tandy Leather sells a Sole Bend that is 15oz leather that is compressed for use in making soles of footwear. It's quite expensive but it's so hard that you could get away without hardening it at all and still have a solid amount of protection. If you did harden it, you'd have some pretty protective armor.

I think you've got the ideal form of armor, brigadine, if I'm not mistaken - a soft leather shell with hard plates on top. The soft leather will prevent a lot of your sweat from getting onto the hard leather. There is no stress on the plates so they won't crack.

I would dye it black. If paint stains become a problem, you can just dye it black again. I've never had paint ball paint on leather and I don't know what it would take to block it, or get it out. As mentioned previously, test peices are the way to go.

Mark Charke

[Dink]

No idea about 95% of what your talking about but, for a leather hardener you may want to try benzoin from a rodeo equipment supplier, It does a very good job as a stiffener for bareback riding gloves, and I think it may do what you want.

[druid]

Sorry it took so long to get back here. Got a "you've got a virus!!" virus and it took quite a bit to get rid of it.

Your crossbow is really good looking .

Since you're going for the ''brigandine look'' you could use chrome tan softer leather for the base veste. I did that in my first armor and got 2 good year use (it still good, I just maid a better looking one).

I don't use my armor for paint ball so I don't need to removed trace of paint on it.

For the varnish I used 5 coat of the eco-flow super shene finish on both side of the leather. It's ok, look a little beat up after a many use (but that's the look I was going for), no trace of crack and it has been use at least once under heavy rain for over 3 hrs.

I tested a couple of product :latex base, water base and oil base varnish but this one gave me a better result.

If any one discover something better please post.

Thanks. the crossbow itself, took some doing...lol.

I will definitely look into the chrome tanned leather for the under-vest.

5 coats of eco-flo super. Copy. Thank you.

A couple of things. First, why do you want to put the plates on the outside of your armour, instead of as shown in the first picture ? They will trap bits of paint and paint ball, and, of course, pretty well guarantee that you get breaks if the ball touches you. Plus it's not like any historic example of armour (and for good reason, since the plates on the outside would catch spear points, sword edges, arrows...)

Second, I recommend for your purposes you harden your leather by soaking it in acrylic floor polish. It works quite nicely, should make it easy to clean off the paint that isn't trapped in the crevices ;0 and is really easy to do.

I make hardened leather armour, using various techniques. The acrylic polish is easy to renew, relatively water resistant (nothing is "proof") and the best bang for your buck in terms of ease of production and cost.

Leather hardened by dampening it and then baking at ~150F does not soften up when it gets wet, the structure of the leather has fundamentally changed. But it does break down over time.

Yes, you are correct that it will enhance ball breaks....that in itself doesn't bother me too much though. The entrapment of paintball elements though...that kind of does. If I have the plates inside or outside, the paintball will still break. My own idea was that if "waxed" [or Varnish] were on the outside, at least I could wipe it off more easily than from the open grain of the sueded side of leather [when the plates are on the inside].

I had not even considered acrylic floor polish! Thanks!

Honestly, I'd suggest a 4-6 ounce garment leather for the "coat", and use cut up plates of pickle barrel or kydex for the inside coat of plates part. Super stiff and super light, and unseen, so who cares if it's plastic. I give a second vote for putting the plates inside as well. It's historically correct and a billion times more functional than having them outside, like Peter says.

That's a very interesting idea and I kind of like it! My only "issue" is as I've said earlier though...trapped paint inside the sueded grain of the leather. I guess though, that at this point I have to accept the fact it's going to get stained.......lol....

HOWEVER!! I know I can get Kydex in brown..........hrm........

I LARP a lot in leather armor. I've been in heat and rain and both will affect your armor. Waxing and waterproofing help but the thickness of the leather seems to be the most important element. All the thin elements "wilt" first in negative conditions.

Tandy Leather sells a Sole Bend that is 15oz leather that is compressed for use in making soles of footwear. It's quite expensive but it's so hard that you could get away without hardening it at all and still have a solid amount of protection. If you did harden it, you'd have some pretty protective armor.

I think you've got the ideal form of armor, brigadine, if I'm not mistaken - a soft leather shell with hard plates on top. The soft leather will prevent a lot of your sweat from getting onto the hard leather. There is no stress on the plates so they won't crack.

I would dye it black. If paint stains become a problem, you can just dye it black again. I've never had paint ball paint on leather and I don't know what it would take to block it, or get it out. As mentioned previously, test peices are the way to go.

Mark Charke

To the Sole leather idea...I'm not really trying to break my bank account...lol. Like you said, it's pretty expensive. I have a Tandy location local to me and was pricing them the other day. That's quite a bit over budget, not to mention that the sheer amount of rivets I'm looking at are going to KILL me...lol. As I calculated my armor, I'm looking at no less than 250 rivets for the garment. Brass "quick" rivets are bad enough, I almost choked on my coffee when I priced the copper ones.

No idea about 95% of what your talking about but, for a leather hardener you may want to try benzoin from a rodeo equipment supplier, It does a very good job as a stiffener for bareback riding gloves, and I think it may do what you want.

I will look into that. Thanks for your reply.

Thank you all for your help. I will genuinely consider each of your responses and weigh which might be right for me.

[Peter Ellis]

My only "issue" is as I've said earlier though...trapped paint inside the sueded grain of the leather. I guess though, that at this point I have to accept the fact it's going to get stained.......lol....

I will look into that. Thanks for your reply.

Thank you all for your help. I will genuinely consider each of your responses and weigh which might be right for me.

Just an observation - there's no need to use a suede for the vest. In fact, your garment will be stronger, more durable and in pretty much every possible way better if you make the garment with a full grain leather rather than a suede. And, you'll get away from the concern about paintball dye on the suede

[druid]

thanks, that was my thought also. I had thought about a Cuirass Armor Leather style armor but it's not quite accurate to what I'm trying to depict. Since it's a Greek/Roman design [which is still an ancient design], it's just not "me" on the field...lol.

I have some time and a lot of though that is going to go into this project.

Edited August 27, 2010 by druid

[CDragonworks]

I find that a coat of wax keeps them from staining... you can also spray them with lacquer to help stiffen and seal after doing the hot water harden... I use the laq on top side of horse tack and wax/oil the bottom...avoids staining... Good luck whichever you try! Cat

[druid]

OK so if I abandon the Coat of Plates idea and go with a Cuirass style, how do I mold the plating after I dump it in hot water/wax? Do i use a seamstress dummy like this? http://cgi.ebay.com/...4=263602_263622

Edited September 12, 2010 by druid

[hivemind]

If you have one that's a great idea. Another would be to simply mold it on the metal armor you're trying to replicate. I do not recommend trying to mold it on your body if you do wax, but if you just water harden you can just do that.

[druid]

If you have one that's a great idea. Another would be to simply mold it on the metal armor you're trying to replicate. I do not recommend trying to mold it on your body if you do wax, but if you just water harden you can just do that.

Well, I have neither the dummy/mannequin, nor the metal armor. ..lol.

I guess I could see if one of the major department stores might have one that's broken or something.......

[HellfireJack]

I just saw this mentioned and had to comment....

From a leather working stand point the idea is awesome. But... from a paintball players perspective though not so much.

Unless you're doing this for the shock and awe/look factor I would advise against hardened body armour when playing. I have years of experience both managing a paintball field/air smithing/playing and it won't help your game one bit. A good percentage of paint balls bounce off of the body and that doesn't count at most fields unless you call yourself out by mistake.

Sticking a sheet of hardened leather between you and the ball almost guarantees that they'll break on you. This is why experienced paintball players wear neoprene and why pro rules allow only so much of it. The leather wrap-around headgear will only hold in moisture, fog your lenses and make it harder to breath and see.

If I were to contemplate doing this for looks I would create the mask and armour and wear it off the field and then make a duplicate of any body armour in grey and black neoprene to maintain the style on the field.

Edited January 4, 2011 by HellfireJack

[druid]

I just saw this mentioned and had to comment....

From a leather working stand point the idea is awesome. But... from a paintball players perspective though not so much.

Unless you're doing this for the shock and awe/look factor I would advise against hardened body armour when playing. I have years of experience both managing a paintball field/air smithing/playing and it won't help your game one bit. A good percentage of paint balls bounce off of the body and that doesn't count at most fields unless you call yourself out by mistake.

Sticking a sheet of hardened leather between you and the ball almost guarantees that they'll break on you. This is why experienced paintball players wear neoprene and why pro rules allow only so much of it. The leather wrap-around headgear will only hold in moisture, fog your lenses and make it harder to breath and see.

If I were to contemplate doing this for looks I would create the mask and armour and wear it off the field and then make a duplicate of any body armour in grey and black neoprene to maintain the style on the field.

Awesome, thanks for answering.

I'm 40 years old and I've been playing since 86 - so the game isn't new to me. The thing is, I'm not at all concerned about 'bounces.' Since I've given up tourney play in 02 - I only play rec and scenario ball for fun anymore.

I'm all about a "look" or a "persona" in this project. The 15-30 minute reinsertions keep me in the game, which I play all day or all weekend long. Think about "Halloween" games "in costume" at many of the bigger fields...Sherwood Forest, Skirmish [my home field] and EMR...It's all fun for me and nothing "all to serious" anymore.

I just want a "wow" factor on the field....but I don't want the leather ruined by Evil or Draxxus paints either. Even PMI Premium is difficult to get out of Jerseys...and I Scotch Guard the crap out of them the day before.......lol.

I was originally going to go for a "Coat of Plates" type of armor but I think I will change that to a http://www.swordnarmory.com/Roman-Steel-Muscle-Plate-Cuirass-Armor-Leather-p/ni36368.htm]Cuirass[/url] or Lorica Segmentata style breast and back plate. It will be easier to carve but more difficult to make into hardened armor. I'm going to need a dummy or mannequin to mold the hot, waterlogged leather on.

Edited January 5, 2011 by druid

[HellfireJack]

Awesome, thanks for answering.

I'm 40 years old and I've been playing since 86 - so the game isn't new to me. The thing is, I'm not at all concerned about 'bounces.' Since I've given up tourney play in 02 - I only play rec and scenario ball for fun anymore.

I'm all about a "look" or a "persona" in this project. The 15-30 minute reinsertions keep me in the game, which I play all day or all weekend long. Think about "Halloween" games "in costume" at many of the bigger fields...Sherwood Forest, Skirmish [my home field] and EMR...It's all fun for me and nothing "all to serious" anymore.

I just want a "wow" factor on the field....but I don't want the leather ruined by Evil or Draxxus paints either. Even PMI Premium is difficult to get out of Jerseys...and I Scotch Guard the crap out of them the day before.......lol.

I was originally going to go for a "Coat of Plates" type of armor but I think I will change that to a Cuirass"]http://www.swordnarm...368.htm]Cuirass[/url] or Lorica Segmentata style breast and back plate. It will be easier to carve but more difficult to make into hardened armor. I'm going to need a dummy or mannequin to mold the hot, waterlogged leather on.

That's all good then. As a field managers I saw tons of people trying the body armour idea, just never in leather. Once I saw someone try to play in motocross gear. He was literally stripping down during his first game. I'd hate to see someone spend the money and take the time to build something that was used for 10 minutes and then wound up sitting in a closet. You have the experience though to know. I'm about the same age and I played from '87 to about '99 when I moved out of state and there simply isn't a decent field in my area. I looked at a couple and they turned out to be tiny "back yard" fields and the people running them really had no clue. Now I just don't have time (or the stamina) to go play anymore. The extra added weight from learning the joy of cheese steaks doesn't help either.

I'm not sure the polyethylene glycol based "paint" would penetrate a properly sealed piece. I'd be more concerned about the balls marring the piece on impact than anything. I'm betting in the end you'll have tiny color marks all over the piece where the shells penetrated the sealer and into the leather and allow the paint to penetrate anyways. You'll probably have to spot dye the piece a lot so I'd go dark colors and try for a matte finish.

You play at Skirmish up in the Jim Thorpe, PA area? I'm about an hour and a half south of you if that's the case. I had always meant to get up there for an event but just never made the drive.

[druid]

That's all good then. As a field managers I saw tons of people trying the body armour idea, just never in leather. Once I saw someone try to play in motocross gear. He was literally stripping down during his first game. I'd hate to see someone spend the money and take the time to build something that was used for 10 minutes and then wound up sitting in a closet. You have the experience though to know. I'm about the same age and I played from '87 to about '99 when I moved out of state and there simply isn't a decent field in my area. I looked at a couple and they turned out to be tiny "back yard" fields and the people running them really had no clue. Now I just don't have time (or the stamina) to go play anymore. The extra added weight from learning the joy of cheese steaks doesn't help either.

Yeah.......lol. remember Cobra Command? That was my FIRST "field" to play waaaaaaaaaaay back in the day. Also did some day trips with friends to Top Gun in NJ but that was right after they opened but before their "legal wrestling" with NJ State and prior to them winning their suit. I still have the stamina but not as much time...lol. 3 daughters later...gives life a whole new "twist"...lol.

I'm not sure the polyethylene glycol based "paint" would penetrate a properly sealed piece. I'd be more concerned about the balls marring the piece on impact than anything. I'm betting in the end you'll have tiny color marks all over the piece where the shells penetrated the sealer and into the leather and allow the paint to penetrate anyways. You'll probably have to spot dye the piece a lot so I'd go dark colors and try for a matte finish.

Agreed. I don't think it's the paint fill so much as it is the paint shell slowly "chipping away" at the finish as they break, where the fill would get in and stain it if and when the finish is worn to the leather itself. I think "regular maintenance" should probably take care of that, wiping it down and then re-sealing it.

You play at Skirmish up in the Jim Thorpe, PA area? I'm about an hour and a half south of you if that's the case. I had always meant to get up there for an event but just never made the drive.

Yep, Skirmish is about 45 mins Northwest of me. You are the equivalent of my distance to EMR then [almost at the NY border]. It's a bit of a hike...lol