"the Custom Conflict"

[Johanna]

Ran into this site by accident and saw:

There are thousands of English and Western saddle manufacturers. But there are very few major tree makers, and they make 95% of the trees in all saddles. Most custom saddle makers buy their trees from these big tree makers who only offer relatively few different sizes because that’s what they’ve always done. Then most saddle makers choose just a few trees to use in their saddles.

In effect, most saddle makers are really custom leather artists. And that beautiful $4500 ‘custom’ saddle may not fit any better than a $1200 off-the-shelf version.

I read some more of the site, but don't understand enough to make a good evaluation. What do you folks think of the advice given there?

Johanna

[bruce johnson]

I'd probably disagree with some of what was said in that blanket statement. It could be that 95% of the saddles sold are made in trees from 3 major saddle tree companies. They are sold to the production saddle shops, and some of them do call their higher end saddles "custom" saddles because the buyer can choose the seat color, tooling pattern, silver styles, whatever. They may very well be building on the same tree as their $1500 plain brown wrapper models. When you get to handmakers of saddles like most of who are here - fewer are using those trees to any extent. They are the ones using the handmade or higher end production trees.

[kseidel]

I have read the information on this web site, and for the most part they are correct. There are several production tree shops and they make most of the trees used in most of the production saddles. Some of the production shops now make their own trees. It is true that some custom saddle makers use trees from these production shops to build their saddles. Most production tree makers provide a high and low quality tree. This is mostly due to the increased time sanding and covering the wood that comes from the same patterns and cutting machines. Most tree factories have a boat load of different bar patterns to choose from, some not fitting any horse on the planet! They do not have the luxury of fine tuning or adjusting an individual tree as a custom maker might.

There is no reason that a factory saddle cannot fit a horse within the tolerance ranges of the horses intended. Most of the problems stem from erroneous practices of the designers within a company. Fitting horses is not a new science and is not really all that complicated, however, many of the tried and proven principles of years past have been forsaken, and sacrificed on the alter of making a profit in an ever changing market. The changing demands of the various riding disciplines as well as a more enlightened consumer has prompted the introduction of "new" trees that are specialized and target a new buyer. Most of the treemakers of the past generation are gone now and much of their knowledge with them. The new generation of tree and saddle makers sometimes fails to do enough proving of their new designs before unleashing them on the public. Many of these designs are based on what the designer "thinks" is correct to address an issue, when the end result may not correct, but worsen a problem area. There is a great deal of trial and error that goes into developing a new tree style and many times what we think will work in the shop does not preform as expected in the field.

Some of the custom hand made treemakers have the same problem. Just because it is a custom tree does not insure that it will fit the horse properly. With custom trees, there are many more specifications that can be altered, and therefore more areas for potential mistakes. We no longer have the long apprenticeships to educate the next generation of makers properly, and so many do not have the proper experience to correctly design their trees or saddles to be truly "better."

Most of what is talked about on the website referenced is accurate. There are a few things I would disagree with, but their principles of the overall balance of the rider and horse as it relates to the saddle are important and do get overlooked a lot. They talk about how to feel the saddle for proper fit and then ride the saddle to determine if it continues to fit properly during movement while carrying the rider. This is important, as the fit of the saddle on a standing horse is not the same as the fit on the horse moving and carrying weight. Many of a horses performance issues can be saddle related. Also many of the riders performance issues can be saddle balance related.

This is a large topic and I could go on forever....

Keith

[horsewreck]

This topic can be discussed at so many levels, so here are a few of my scattered thoughts on the subject. As far as what percentage of total production the big tree makers have, I could not hazard a guess. Ther are several tree factories that turn out a lot of trees and they sell to all manner of saddle builders.

A good quality production tree can be as good or better than a halfast custom hand made tree. That having been said I think a well designed well built hand made tree is better than just about any production tree.

One function of a custom tree maker is to make trees that might not be available from mass builders, and we have the perception that the quality will be better as well. We have the same perception of the custom made saddle. Our perceptions of both the tree maker and the saddler can be faulty.

Large scale tree and saddle factories develope lines of product that can be made and marketed in mass, which gives them the edge on price. Quality of these products can often be good.

Terms used to describe saddles and trees can cunfuse as well, custom, hand made, shop made and so on. To my way of thinking a custom made saddle is one that starts with the customer and their idea of what they want, from there the saddler orders the tree and such, then builds the custom saddle. The tree used in the custom saddle can be a stock production tree, a semi-custom tree, a custom production tree, or a hand made boutique tree, as long as the specs. and quality is what the customer ordered.

[kseidel]

This topic can be discussed at so many levels, so here are a few of my scattered thoughts on the subject. As far as what percentage of total production the big tree makers have, I could not hazard a guess. Ther are several tree factories that turn out a lot of trees and they sell to all manner of saddle builders.

A good quality production tree can be as good or better than a halfast custom hand made tree. That having been said I think a well designed well built hand made tree is better than just about any production tree.

One function of a custom tree maker is to make trees that might not be available from mass builders, and we have the perception that the quality will be better as well. We have the same perception of the custom made saddle. Our perceptions of both the tree maker and the saddler can be faulty.

Large scale tree and saddle factories develope lines of product that can be made and marketed in mass, which gives them the edge on price. Quality of these products can often be good.

Terms used to describe saddles and trees can cunfuse as well, custom, hand made, shop made and so on. To my way of thinking a custom made saddle is one that starts with the customer and their idea of what they want, from there the saddler orders the tree and such, then builds the custom saddle. The tree used in the custom saddle can be a stock production tree, a semi-custom tree, a custom production tree, or a hand made boutique tree, as long as the specs. and quality is what the customer ordered.

Well stated Jeff. Many unsuspecting consumers buy a "handmade" saddle expecting it to be better than a factory made by default, only to find out that the saddler is inexperienced and the saddle does not perform as well as a factory made would have. There was a lot of discussion in Sheridan at the leather show last week regarding the fact that a factory tree might fit the intended horse within tolerance as well as a handmade, and sometimes better.

Keith

[horsewreck]

Thanks Keith, I'm glad were on the same page on this subject... Jeff

[Hennessy]

i probably sound like a squeaky wheel with my opinions on production saddles,but heres the rub.competition is at cutthroat levels,most trophy saddles are alloted to the cheapest bidder,most are under 800 or even cheaper.to compete at that price means cheaper product material and production shortcuts.this approach spills over into production in general.many production saddlemakers make 6 to 10 saddles a week some on salary most on piece work ,safe to say most dont give a hoot as to symentry of bar surface or material or cut selection on leather.the trees are more than likely[not allways]mexico made ,which means poor quality control or none.the good companys who strive to do it right are the ones put in a pinch!how to pickout the honest companys, who honestly use american made materials from the ones who say they do,that is the question, better business bureau mebe google could take that on ?then theres mexic0 , china and india knocking on the door with their us styled products,i'm sorry i'm not going anywhere i'll close and apologise for my dribble