Reconstructing 17Th Century Sword Scabbards

[UKRay]

We had some discussion on this subject a while back but I'm no nearer being able to recreate the 'hard' leather of a 17th century sword scabbard than I was before. I wonder if anyone has any ideas on this.

Let me explain: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

I liked Peter Ellis' acrylic floor polish idea for armour (in another thread) and wondered if that might work in this instance. Any thoughts? It isn't quite 'kosher' but hey, if it gets the job done I'm for it! Might they have painted the inside of the scabbard with some kind of sealer/shellac/something to give it rigidity? If so, how did they do it given the leather scabbard tube is usually 2ft long and only an inch or so in diameter... How did they get it to soak right through and create a hard shell?

I have done all the warm/hot/boiling water through the tube stuff and not achieved much at all apart from some very soggy tubes of leather. Okay they dry stiff but this clumsy product isn't the same thing as the beautifully finished scabbards made in the 17th and 18th century. Where am I going wrong?

I think it needs discussion and would welcome ideas and opinions from those who have made this kind of thing. Maybe you have the solution - I do hope so.

Ray

[MADMAX22]

Well I must honestly say I dont know a thing about the scabbards and such but the first thing that came to mind was this thread http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=6375&st=0&p=72916&fromsearch=1entry72916

Remember also that part of the boiling thing is its gotta be pretty exact on the temps and such. Another method may be baking the leather (forgot the temp around 170F I think) but that is suppose to make it pretty hard. Not sure of the entire process though. You could possibly wet form it then bake it and give it a nice shine afterwards.

Another thought that comes to mind is the same method for doing the inside of mugs, water bags, canteens and such where they used the pitch and wax melted then coated the inside of the things. I think this lends a certain amount of rigidity to the leather as well but I am not certain as I have not played with this.

Could also be just the tannage they use to use. I mean there is a huge difference in stiffness from say herman oak compared to some of the tandy leather or the vegtan from say waterhouse leather.

Sorry if you have already thought of these or tried them, just my rambling thoughts.

[Bondurant]

Not sure what your project is exactly but many leather scabbards are braced with wood and or metal. European leather sword scabbards are beyond my expertise but you're welcome to go to Dons and ask, somebody there will have answers for you. The picture below is a scabbard made by Ben Potter off a tutorial posted somewhere on the forum, I can probably find it for you if you want.

Don Fogg Bladesmiths Forum

[MikeCahill]

<snip>: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

<snip>

Modern veg tan leather is I believe drum tanned which continually flexes the skin giving a softer finished product, (a much quicker process). I think I might try soaking an oversized piece of leather in water with tanning solution such as s shredded oak bark for a couple of months and hopefully when dried it will make a stiffer leather I would then work warmed or even melted beeswax into the leather (use friction, a hairdryer or hot air gun to get it deep into the structure from both sides) I think you will find this gives a much stiffer leather to shape it you may need to use a heated iron with the leather on a former the shape of the scabard

[Spinner]

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

[tonyc1]

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

The leather with a rawhide centre used to be available here in Australia, not sure if it still is available. I've used it for girth points on riding and pacing saddles and it was very strong.

Tony.

[UKRay]

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

Many thanks for this Spinner, I have made some enquiries and hopefully will see some half-tanned leather here pretty soon. I'm looking forward to experimenting!

Ray

[Tina]

That leather can also be found in Sweden, This is from one of the supplier I'm using over here:

http://www.slojddetaljer.se/deptlist.aspx?deptid=136&showAll=true

The leather halfway tanned is called " Rårand/Norskt Valkläder" Now, there's another type here just called "Råläder/Lappläder"

(Raw leather/lapp leather)and the usage according to the text might be just what you're looking for Ray:

Råläder är ett helt ogarvat skinn. Det

är utmärkt om man vill ha hårda fodral

eller knivslidor. Skinnet blötlägges före

bearbetning och återfår sin hårdhet

när det torkat. Tjocklek 1,7-2 mm

Translation:

"Raw leather is totally untanned, it is perfect for that hard

sheet/scabbard. The leather is put in water before being

used/worked at and will recover the stiffness when dry.

thickness 1.7-2mm."

I hope this will give you some ideas :-)

[Spinner]

Many thanks for this Spinner, I have made some enquiries and hopefully will see some half-tanned leather here pretty soon. I'm looking forward to experimenting!

Ray

No problem Ray, I actually came across all the information by accident one night, can't remember why, but I have been intrigued ever since.

The shop I am working with is http://www.brisa.fi they have been very nice and have a number of folks on staff that speak/write fluent English so that has helped.

They carry both the half tanned and lapp leather mentioned here as well. (Side note, if you register for their website before ordering the pricing is 10-20% less than normally displayed).

I also splurged and bought and Enzo Nordic style knife kit so looking forward to making my first knife as well.

[Daggrim]

Ray, I've cuir buoillied lots of leather for my helmets, and it's extremely difficult to do that on anything thinner than 8 oz. The time/temperature window gets smaller as the leather gets thinner. It also narrows for thick leather that is floppy, and not very dense. I shoot for 175 degrees, and eye it like a hawk after a minute.

For thinner leather, I heat it at around 160 degrees for 3 or 4 minutes, time not being critical, then I oven bake it at 190 for about a half hour. The leather gets darker, and it scorches a tiny bit wherever it's touching it's supports. It also makes the leather tougher to dye, having some very hard areas. I don't think it would work very well for a scabbard. Too much distortion.

I've never tried wax because I've always gotten very good results using just water. Wax appears to make the leather even harder, but I've heard that that is deceptive, because on a hot day, the leather will soften.

What about drying the wet leather by forming it around a warmed up sword blade? It'd be the perfect mandrel.

Doug

[UKRay]

Many thanks for the address, Tina - I've been in touch with them.

Ray, I've cuir buoillied lots of leather for my helmets, and it's extremely difficult to do that on anything thinner than 8 oz.

Doug

I had the same experiences as you with the cuir bouille, Doug. The scabbards have to be made from max. 2mm leather or they become too heavy, feel 'cloddish' and the original fittings don't fit. I have also tried forming wet leather round the blade and drying it with a hair-dryer (hardly a medieval / 17th - 18th century technique) but the quality of the leather was so good it hardly noticed and although it did stiffen slightly, it stayed flexible.

I don't feel much like heating an historic blade to use it as a former- most of the swords I work with are inlaid with gold leaf and / or have an amazing patina that I couldn't possibly risk damaging. I agree it could work but the risk of damage is too great. I'm fairly confident this wasn't the original technique too.

Oven baking is also an option on smaller pieces of leather but I don't have an oven big enough to 'cook' a 3ft tube of leather. I'm going to experiment with a wood fired clay oven made specially for this purpose later in the year and will keep you informed.

Hot wax - yup, once again, my experiences match yours and I also feel that hot weather leads to scabbard droop... not a 'good look'.

I just tried some through-dyed veg tan that was so hard to start with I had trouble getting it to form a tube and resorted to a cobbler's hammer to get it flat. After fighting the stuff to get the tunnel stitches in place the stuff became so soft that the wretched stitches pulled through... Now that really upset me!

I think the half-tanned route may well be the way to go. It makes sense to use a leather that is already stiffened with a layer of rawhide. It ought to mould well and hopefully will be strong enough to keep its form over the entire length of the blade. I'm slightly concerned about how well the stitches will hold but the Skandi knife sheaths I have seen look tough enough so I'm probably worrying unnecessarily.

Ray

[UKRay]

Modern veg tan leather is I believe drum tanned which continually flexes the skin giving a softer finished product, (a much quicker process). I think I might try soaking an oversized piece of leather in water with tanning solution such as s shredded oak bark for a couple of months and hopefully when dried it will make a stiffer leather I would then work warmed or even melted beeswax into the leather (use friction, a hairdryer or hot air gun to get it deep into the structure from both sides) I think you will find this gives a much stiffer leather to shape it you may need to use a heated iron with the leather on a former the shape of the scabard

I completely agree that the modern drum tanning process does produce a softer leather, Mike, but I am using pit tanned (oak bark) leather from Collyton in Devon which is about as authentic as it gets - and I still can't crack the problem. Beeswax (even well soaked beeswax) almost works as long as the scabbard is kept cool although it is still very flexible but put it in the sun and it goes floppy again. I'm actually looking for a hard, rigid structure, not a flexible one.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'former the shape of the scabbard' as I'm reasonably confident the originals weren't made with a former. Can you explain a little more please?

Ray

[Spinner]

I'm slightly concerned about how well the stitches will hold but the Skandi knife sheaths I have seen look tough enough so I'm probably worrying unnecessarily.

That's one of the things I've been impressed with in reading about them. Some of the forums I have read talk about the well made sheaths retaining their "pop" for tens of years. (A true Scandi sheath actually makes a small pop sound when the knife is drawn due to being formed around the knife it's meant for and the design of the knife/sheath combo). The thing that is impressive is that their stitching isn't set as far back in the leather as a pouch sheath and they still remain that tight after regular use. If you haven't read this article yet, http://www.mamut.net/gjknives/subdet1.htm it's a good way to see the differences in Scandi vs. pouch sheath construction.

[jimsaddler]

That's one of the things I've been impressed with in reading about them. Some of the forums I have read talk about the well made sheaths retaining their "pop" for tens of years. (A true Scandi sheath actually makes a small pop sound when the knife is drawn due to being formed around the knife it's meant for and the design of the knife/sheath combo). The thing that is impressive is that their stitching isn't set as far back in the leather as a pouch sheath and they still remain that tight after regular use. If you haven't read this article yet, http://www.mamut.net...ves/subdet1.htm it's a good way to see the differences in Scandi vs. pouch sheath construction.

Hi Guys

The Leather you are after is Ladies light Stick on Sole. I haven't used it for years now but did quite a few Scabbards 30 to 40 years ago. I know that every Shoe Repairer used it. It was reasonably easy to soak, Mellow, Hammer to Shape, sew, Dry, Polish, then coat with Lacquer (thin to start for penetration, getting thicker ) like French Polishing. The Lacquer was made from a type of Resin that dried Hard and waterproof. I got the directions from an old Curator at the Australian Museum in Sydney. He had Books on the process from the 1.700's. Probably the Museum still has the Books.

This Leather was not Staked and by using 2.8mm substance and Hammering and Boning it reduced to a fraction over 2mm when finished and very firm.

The Rawhide Core Leather doesn't work very easily and is hard to sew effectively.

I hope this helps. Italy still make such a Leather.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

[MBOGO]

I would like to follow this, as I have always wondered how this was done.

[MikeCahill]

I completely agree that the modern drum tanning process does produce a softer leather, Mike, but I am using pit tanned (oak bark) leather from Collyton in Devon which is about as authentic as it gets - and I still can't crack the problem. Beeswax (even well soaked beeswax) almost works as long as the scabbard is kept cool although it is still very flexible but put it in the sun and it goes floppy again. I'm actually looking for a hard, rigid structure, not a flexible one.

I'm not sure what you mean by a 'former the shape of the scabbard' as I'm reasonably confident the originals weren't made with a former. Can you explain a little more please?

Ray

of course I meant to say "former the shape of the sword!!" perhaps the sword its self well covered with clingfilm to protect it and then a couple of layers of gaffa tape to give a clearance fit

Mike

[amuckart]

Hi Ray,

We had some discussion on this subject a while back but I'm no nearer being able to recreate the 'hard' leather of a 17th century sword scabbard than I was before. I wonder if anyone has any ideas on this.

Let me explain: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

My first reaction is that if you're doing this work for museums then surely they have some extant examples for you to look at, or at least photographs of them? If the ones you're working for don't, get in touch with the Royal Armouries at Leeds. If anyone in Britain has some, they will. You could also look over at www.myarmoury.com and see if there's anything in the forum archives there, but it's a big forum so you have to be pretty good with the search.

There are a couple of ways I think this could go. Jacked leather, or leather-over-wood. Earlier swords were generally found in wooden-cored scabbards that were covered with fabric then thin leather (or fancy fabric, or whatever). They got their stiffness from the wood, the leather was just there to hold everything together.

Purely speculating, but if you're dealing with documented leather-only scabbards then I'd guess they were made grain-in and jacked on the outside with a mix of rosin a touch of wax or oil and lampblack. Singe off any hairy bits of the flesh side and daub the mix in hot so it soaks in. Do that for several coatings and then burnish the hell out of it and you'll get a great smooth surface and it'll harden up the leather nicely. There are descriptions of jack boots and helmets made like this from the 18th century that are described as being as hard as wood.

Look here: http://www.personal....leather/hl.html under the heading "LATE ADDITIONS" near the bottom. That's all 18th-19th century, but it's perhaps a start. Really though, the folk at Leeds are probably your best bet.

HTH

[UKRay]

Hi Al,

As you suggest, I have access to plenty of examples of original scabbards, but my question was about the tannage of the original leather and the treatment it was given to make it hard.

The scabbards I am working on are simply tunnel stitched tubes of leather with metal fittings. They don't pose any real constructional challenges and do not appear to be made over a former other than the sword itself. Mine look virtually identical to the originals - I simply need to harden the leather so it keeps its shape when the sword is removed.

"I'd guess they were made grain-in and jacked on the outside with a mix of rosin a touch of wax or oil and lampblack. Singe off any hairy bits of the flesh side and daub the mix in hot so it soaks in. Do that for several coatings and then burnish the hell out of it and you'll get a great smooth surface and it'll harden up the leather nicely. There are descriptions of jack boots and helmets made like this from the 18th century that are described as being as hard as wood."

Your suggested course of action sounds like it may work, Al, and I will give it a try later this week as I have another sword on the bench waiting for a new scabbard. Could you please explain your use of the word 'jacked'? Is this the same process as 'bulling' military boots?

Cheers,

Ray

[amuckart]

Hi Ray,

As you suggest, I have access to plenty of examples of original scabbards, but my question was about the tannage of the original leather and the treatment it was given to make it hard.

Is there enough of the surface left to figure out whether they were originally made grain-in or grain-out? I'm curious now. If they're grain-in then I'd put money on them being jacked. If they're grain out it's still a possibility, but I wouldn't put so much money on it.

Your suggested course of action sounds like it may work, Al, and I will give it a try later this week as I have another sword on the bench waiting for a new scabbard. Could you please explain your use of the word 'jacked'? Is this the same process as 'bulling' military boots?

Heh, I've just read the thread on spit-polishing and the descriptions of bulling boots in there. When I first read this question I didn't understand what the phrase meant

It's not the same, no. I can't remember where I originally got the term 'jacking' from, possibly Baker's Black Jacks and Leather Bottels, possibly Garsault (quoted below), possibly elsewhere but I understand it as a process of impregnating leather with hard, black, resin/wax mixtures to render it hard and water resistant.

It's worth noting that while this process involves heat, the process as I understand (and practice) it relies on the resins impregnating the leather to impart the stiffness not a wet heating as in cour bouille. As far as I can tell the waxes are added to cut the brittleness of the rosin and help carry the mixture into the leather. It's really an impregnation process, not just a surface conditioning. It has the advantage of being restoreable too. If the finish cracks or the scabbard gets bent some heat and more jacking should fix it. Even applied to the flesh surface of leather it's possible to get a very high finish.

The URL I posted in my original reply has pretty good descriptions of the process, one of which I'll paste in below:

"Having one pair of boots... over their boot trees and previously wet, but now dry, take a coarse wood rasp, which is rubbed over the whole boot-leg to remove the fluff which stands up on the flesh; after this you proceed with the jacking/waxing... The place for jacking/waxing must be a room with a chimney, paved or tiled [NB-- "...where there is no fear of fire" in one edition]; near the top of the chimney, outside, is attached an iron chain which dangles to within six inches of the floor or there-abouts. You ready yourself for jacking/waxing by putting a small portable stove or lit brazier on a table to your left, on which you place a kettle containing the following recipe: One pound of yellow wax, two pounds of colophony, which is pine rosin, and lampblack to suit. You also furnish yourself with a swab, this is the name of a large dauber formed from a bundle of linen rags bound together, and have on your right, on the ground, some loose straw... Begin your task by lighting a little straw, which you wave under the bootleg to singe it, in other words to burn the rest of the fluff from the leaher that the rasp did not remove; afterward dip the swab in the BOILING [NB -- emphasis added] jacking/wax with which you coat the entire bootleg. Then continually rotate the boot-tree with your hands over a steady straw fire so that the heat makes the jacking/wax penetrate. You put on six sucessive coats in the space of an hour, being very careful to occasionally moisten the bootleg so it will not scorch, and so it takes two hours time to jack/wax one pair of boots. The bootleg now jacked/waxed, leave it to cool... When the bootleg has been jacked/waxed, and once more is thouroughly cold, it is full of lumps caused by the boiling jacking/wax with which it was coated and saturated; to remove them take an old knife, and using the blade as a scraper, scrape off all these lumps, then rub with a piece of cold wax that you spread very evenly with a stiff brush or burnishing stick, etc., and you finish-off by polishing and shining with the palm of your hand". -- M. de Garsault, 'l'Art du Cordonnier' [Paris, 1767]

Now this is a full century later than you're after, but I think what we're reading there is a plausible explanation for the preparation of 'Black Jacks' and other hardened black, waxed leather goods that go back well before the 17th Century and is at least a reasonable starting point for a plausibly accurate technique to treat your scabbard leather.

I'd love to see pictures of some of the ones you've made.

As an aside, since I've quoted from it here, Al Saguto of the Colonial Williamsburg foundation released his translation and interpretation of Garsault's work this year. It is a pretty deep read but is utterly invaluable for anyone with an interest in historic footwear and leatherwork and I recommend it highly. It's not a stretch to say Al is the worlds foremost living expert on this period of shoemaking and the book reflects that deep knowledge.

Edited July 14, 2010 by UKRay

[MikeCahill]

Hi Ray,

Is there enough of the surface left to figure out whether they were originally made grain-in or grain-out? I'm curious now. If they're grain-in then I'd put money on them being jacked. If they're grain out it's still a possibility, but I wouldn't put so much money on it.

Heh, I've just read the thread on spit-polishing and the descriptions of bulling boots in there. When I first read this question I didn't understand what the phrase meant

It's not the same, no. I can't remember where I originally got the term 'jacking' from, possibly Baker's Black Jacks and Leather Bottels, possibly Garsault (quoted below), possibly elsewhere but I understand it as a process of impregnating leather with hard, black, resin/wax mixtures to render it hard and water resistant.

It's worth noting that while this process involves heat, the process as I understand (and practice) it relies on the resins impregnating the leather to impart the stiffness not a wet heating as in cour bouille. As far as I can tell the waxes are added to cut the brittleness of the rosin and help carry the mixture into the leather. It's really an impregnation process, not just a surface conditioning. It has the advantage of being restoreable too. If the finish cracks or the scabbard gets bent some heat and more jacking should fix it. Even applied to the flesh surface of leather it's possible to get a very high finish.

The URL I posted in my original reply has pretty good descriptions of the process, one of which I'll paste in below:

"Having one pair of boots... over their boot trees and previously wet, but now dry, take a coarse wood rasp, which is rubbed over the whole boot-leg to remove the fluff which stands up on the flesh; after this you proceed with the jacking/waxing... The place for jacking/waxing must be a room with a chimney, paved or tiled [NB-- "...where there is no fear of fire" in one edition]; near the top of the chimney, outside, is attached an iron chain which dangles to within six inches of the floor or there-abouts. You ready yourself for jacking/waxing by putting a small portable stove or lit brazier on a table to your left, on which you place a kettle containing the following recipe: One pound of yellow wax, two pounds of colophony, which is pine rosin, and lampblack to suit. You also furnish yourself with a swab, this is the name of a large dauber formed from a bundle of linen rags bound together, and have on your right, on the ground, some loose straw... Begin your task by lighting a little straw, which you wave under the bootleg to singe it, in other words to burn the rest of the fluff from the leaher that the rasp did not remove; afterward dip the swab in the BOILING [NB -- emphasis added] jacking/wax with which you coat the entire bootleg. Then continually rotate the boot-tree with your hands over a steady straw fire so that the heat makes the jacking/wax penetrate. You put on six sucessive coats in the space of an hour, being very careful to occasionally moisten the bootleg so it will not scorch, and so it takes two hours time to jack/wax one pair of boots. The bootleg now jacked/waxed, leave it to cool... When the bootleg has been jacked/waxed, and once more is thouroughly cold, it is full of lumps caused by the boiling jacking/wax with which it was coated and saturated; to remove them take an old knife, and using the blade as a scraper, scrape off all these lumps, then rub with a piece of cold wax that you spread very evenly with a stiff brush or burnishing stick, etc., and you finish-off by polishing and shining with the palm of your hand". -- M. de Garsault, 'l'Art du Cordonnier' [Paris, 1767]

Now this is a full century later than you're after, but I think what we're reading there is a plausible explanation for the preparation of 'Black Jacks' and other hardened black, waxed leather goods that go back well before the 17th Century and is at least a reasonable starting point for a plausibly accurate technique to treat your scabbard leather.

I'd love to see pictures of some of the ones you've made.

As an aside, since I've quoted from it here, Al Saguto of the Colonial Williamsburg foundation released his translation and interpretation of Garsault's work this year. It is a pretty deep read but is utterly invaluable for anyone with an interest in historic footwear and leatherwork and I recommend it highly. It's not a stretch to say Al is the worlds foremost living expert on this period of shoemaking and the book reflects that deep knowledge.

If you add pure turpintine to that recipe you have what I would call Cobblers heel Ball which was used for burnishing heels and soles, (and by small boys making brass rubbings of gravestones). the turpintine makes it more flexable, and tacky for easier application the turpintine evaporates off during the burnishing process leaving a high gloss finish. It would work but I would worry about the sword getting "glued" into the scabbard if it was exposed to a a hot sun, perhaps "dusting" the inside with fine sand would help

Cheers

Mike

[amuckart]

Hi Mike,

If you add pure turpintine to that recipe you have what I would call Cobblers heel Ball which was used for burnishing heels and soles, (and by small boys making brass rubbings of gravestones). the turpintine makes it more flexable, and tacky for easier application the turpintine evaporates off during the burnishing process leaving a high gloss finish. It would work but I would worry about the sword getting "glued" into the scabbard if it was exposed to a a hot sun, perhaps "dusting" the inside with fine sand would help

That makes sense. The recipe is pretty similar to how I made code for hand stitching but I don't use lampblack. I use black pine pitch if I need black code.

No real worry about the sword getting glued in place. The mix doesn't soak all the way through to the grain side of the leather. If it did your feet would get stuck in the boots too

[MikeCahill]

Hi Mike,

That makes sense. The recipe is pretty similar to how I made code for hand stitching but I don't use lampblack. I use black pine pitch if I need black code.

No real worry about the sword getting glued in place. The mix doesn't soak all the way through to the grain side of the leather. If it did your feet would get stuck in the boots too

I can't use the stuff, I have an allergy to rosin, for my 50th I got a fiddle, something I had always wanted to have a go at, after sawing away at it for a week or so I developed a strange rash, and what I and my Dr thought was a chest infection, so with a two week sick note, I had more time to practice, the chest got worse and worse I ended up on a Ventalin inhalor, eventually discovered after patch testing that I am allergic to rosin, I still play (badly) but use a synthetic rosin called "Clarity" it still bothers me but I can live with it!

It always fascinates me that you can swop information and tips with someone half a world away and get a feel for their way of living and working. we're not that different after all! Never heard the word Code, but the bit about mixing it where there is no danger of fire rings true, that mixture doesn't take much setting alight, (the voice of experience)

[Nighthawk]

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

That's only mostly correct. One thing that I have learned from examining things like Viking shoes, comparing them to modern reproductions, is that the leather from back in the day was a lot more dense. My understanding is that it has to do with modern growth hormones causing animals to grow bigger, faster, stretching their skin. Half tanned leather is a big factor in the thicker, harder scabbards, but so is the way animals grow. If you're getting leather from Finland, you should be good to go- they don't use the growth hormones. Leather from the Nordic countries is highly prized in the living history community for that reason. I'd love to get my hands on enough 3 oz Finalandian leather to make myself a pair of bog brogues... I'm stoked to hear your review!

[jimsaddler]

Hi UKRay

I've stayed back from this one and watched for quite a while. Let me clarify what I meant by Ladies Stick on Sole Leather as that it the Leather used for Scabbards.

It is very dense to start with and dry. Ladies Shoes required a light Sole to be elegant and were Stuck on instead with Leather Cement of Riveted. This Leather was usually Oak Tanned Butts of light substance, quite rigid and very little stretch. The method of Tempering was to Hammer the Soaked and mellowed Sole to shape and then Bone it to get a very elegant Finish. It is what you are looking for without all the Waxes, Resins etc added. Rough out will increase the Rigidity also.

To get the Hide ready for the Scabbard, cut the size required plus an allowance for trimming and working and do a soak and Mellow it over night, wrapped in Hessian and Plastic. Bend the Piece to allow for the Spine and Hammer it firmly to shape of the Sword. Now you either Wax (Beeswax) or grease (Vaseline) the Sword and use it as the Mould. Now it is a case of Hammering and Boning it to shape on both sides evenly. A bean Bag (weighted with heavy weights) is used to keep the form while it dries

When nearly dry, take it out and Bone it again to get the required finnish. Now is the time to Stitch it etc.

Please remember that these were produced in quantities in their time so techniques varied, but the process outlined above is followed basically with variations on all that I have seen.

Please feel free to contact me for further info if needed.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

We had some discussion on this subject a while back but I'm no nearer being able to recreate the 'hard' leather of a 17th century sword scabbard than I was before. I wonder if anyone has any ideas on this.

Let me explain: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

I liked Peter Ellis' acrylic floor polish idea for armour (in another thread) and wondered if that might work in this instance. Any thoughts? It isn't quite 'kosher' but hey, if it gets the job done I'm for it! Might they have painted the inside of the scabbard with some kind of sealer/shellac/something to give it rigidity? If so, how did they do it given the leather scabbard tube is usually 2ft long and only an inch or so in diameter... How did they get it to soak right through and create a hard shell?

I have done all the warm/hot/boiling water through the tube stuff and not achieved much at all apart from some very soggy tubes of leather. Okay they dry stiff but this clumsy product isn't the same thing as the beautifully finished scabbards made in the 17th and 18th century. Where am I going wrong?

I think it needs discussion and would welcome ideas and opinions from those who have made this kind of thing. Maybe you have the solution - I do hope so.

Ray

[UKRay]

Hi Jim,

After reading your post I began experimenting with all kinds of leather. The process you have described is pretty much what I've now worked out for myself by trial and many errors. I'm still working on the boning process to get the 'finesse' just right but essentially, yes, I absolutely agree with everything you say. The stitching is relatively straight forward tunnel stitching but I'd like to be able to make a much finer stitch. My only curved awl is a wee bit big for the job - I broke my smaller one and don't know where to get a replacement at present.

I'd also like to find a few more stitch marker wheels in different sizes...

Best wishes and many thanks for your extremely valuable contributions,

Ray