Reconstructing 17Th Century Sword Scabbards

[amuckart]

Hi Mike,

  On 7/15/2010 at 11:12 PM, MikeCahill said:

If you add pure turpintine to that recipe you have what I would call Cobblers heel Ball which was used for burnishing heels and soles, (and by small boys making brass rubbings of gravestones). the turpintine makes it more flexable, and tacky for easier application the turpintine evaporates off during the burnishing process leaving a high gloss finish. It would work but I would worry about the sword getting "glued" into the scabbard if it was exposed to a a hot sun, perhaps "dusting" the inside with fine sand would help

That makes sense. The recipe is pretty similar to how I made code for hand stitching but I don't use lampblack. I use black pine pitch if I need black code.

No real worry about the sword getting glued in place. The mix doesn't soak all the way through to the grain side of the leather. If it did your feet would get stuck in the boots too

[MikeCahill]

  On 7/16/2010 at 12:21 AM, amuckart said:

Hi Mike,

That makes sense. The recipe is pretty similar to how I made code for hand stitching but I don't use lampblack. I use black pine pitch if I need black code.

No real worry about the sword getting glued in place. The mix doesn't soak all the way through to the grain side of the leather. If it did your feet would get stuck in the boots too

I can't use the stuff, I have an allergy to rosin, for my 50th I got a fiddle, something I had always wanted to have a go at, after sawing away at it for a week or so I developed a strange rash, and what I and my Dr thought was a chest infection, so with a two week sick note, I had more time to practice, the chest got worse and worse I ended up on a Ventalin inhalor, eventually discovered after patch testing that I am allergic to rosin, I still play (badly) but use a synthetic rosin called "Clarity" it still bothers me but I can live with it!

It always fascinates me that you can swop information and tips with someone half a world away and get a feel for their way of living and working. we're not that different after all! Never heard the word Code, but the bit about mixing it where there is no danger of fire rings true, that mixture doesn't take much setting alight, (the voice of experience)

[Nighthawk]

  On 5/28/2010 at 10:32 PM, Spinner said:

Depending on what geographic area you're looking at, it may be similar to the process I'm researching right now. In Europe in the 1700s and 1800s there was a process of making sheaths, particularly for knifes but also for swords, that used what is called half tanned leather. The tanning process is stopped about half-way through so the end result is a leather with 3 parts to it. The exterior flesh and skin sides are tanned but the middle 50% (think the filling on a sandwich) is still rawhide. This allows it to do a couple of things: a) when it dries, it shrinks more than fully tanned leather making for a more precise fit the center/core of rawhide dries harder than boiled full tanned leather making it more rigid

I ordered some half-tanned leather from Finland today and will report back once I get it and have more first hand knowledge. Hope this helps.

That's only mostly correct. One thing that I have learned from examining things like Viking shoes, comparing them to modern reproductions, is that the leather from back in the day was a lot more dense. My understanding is that it has to do with modern growth hormones causing animals to grow bigger, faster, stretching their skin. Half tanned leather is a big factor in the thicker, harder scabbards, but so is the way animals grow. If you're getting leather from Finland, you should be good to go- they don't use the growth hormones. Leather from the Nordic countries is highly prized in the living history community for that reason. I'd love to get my hands on enough 3 oz Finalandian leather to make myself a pair of bog brogues... I'm stoked to hear your review!

[jimsaddler]

Hi UKRay

I've stayed back from this one and watched for quite a while. Let me clarify what I meant by Ladies Stick on Sole Leather as that it the Leather used for Scabbards.

It is very dense to start with and dry. Ladies Shoes required a light Sole to be elegant and were Stuck on instead with Leather Cement of Riveted. This Leather was usually Oak Tanned Butts of light substance, quite rigid and very little stretch. The method of Tempering was to Hammer the Soaked and mellowed Sole to shape and then Bone it to get a very elegant Finish. It is what you are looking for without all the Waxes, Resins etc added. Rough out will increase the Rigidity also.

To get the Hide ready for the Scabbard, cut the size required plus an allowance for trimming and working and do a soak and Mellow it over night, wrapped in Hessian and Plastic. Bend the Piece to allow for the Spine and Hammer it firmly to shape of the Sword. Now you either Wax (Beeswax) or grease (Vaseline) the Sword and use it as the Mould. Now it is a case of Hammering and Boning it to shape on both sides evenly. A bean Bag (weighted with heavy weights) is used to keep the form while it dries

When nearly dry, take it out and Bone it again to get the required finnish. Now is the time to Stitch it etc.

Please remember that these were produced in quantities in their time so techniques varied, but the process outlined above is followed basically with variations on all that I have seen.

Please feel free to contact me for further info if needed.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

  On 5/11/2010 at 9:39 AM, UKRay said:

We had some discussion on this subject a while back but I'm no nearer being able to recreate the 'hard' leather of a 17th century sword scabbard than I was before. I wonder if anyone has any ideas on this.

Let me explain: I regularly have to re-make old sword scabbards for museums and collectors and although I can make a perfectly adequate 'display piece' replica from modern leather I am still not absolutely certain what sort of leather they were made from originally. An educated guess suggests 1.5 to 2mm thick veg tan / oak bark tan of some kind but was this a special tannage? Anyone got any thoughts on where authentic material might be obtained or where I might find anyone who may be doing the same job as me now?

Next question: I'm at a loss to decide how to treat my leather to get the same level of rigidity the 'old guys' achieved. I have tried many types of leather and haven't found a solution to what I call 'scabbard droop' - any ideas?

I liked Peter Ellis' acrylic floor polish idea for armour (in another thread) and wondered if that might work in this instance. Any thoughts? It isn't quite 'kosher' but hey, if it gets the job done I'm for it! Might they have painted the inside of the scabbard with some kind of sealer/shellac/something to give it rigidity? If so, how did they do it given the leather scabbard tube is usually 2ft long and only an inch or so in diameter... How did they get it to soak right through and create a hard shell?

I have done all the warm/hot/boiling water through the tube stuff and not achieved much at all apart from some very soggy tubes of leather. Okay they dry stiff but this clumsy product isn't the same thing as the beautifully finished scabbards made in the 17th and 18th century. Where am I going wrong?

I think it needs discussion and would welcome ideas and opinions from those who have made this kind of thing. Maybe you have the solution - I do hope so.

Ray

[UKRay]

Hi Jim,

After reading your post I began experimenting with all kinds of leather. The process you have described is pretty much what I've now worked out for myself by trial and many errors. I'm still working on the boning process to get the 'finesse' just right but essentially, yes, I absolutely agree with everything you say. The stitching is relatively straight forward tunnel stitching but I'd like to be able to make a much finer stitch. My only curved awl is a wee bit big for the job - I broke my smaller one and don't know where to get a replacement at present.

I'd also like to find a few more stitch marker wheels in different sizes...

Best wishes and many thanks for your extremely valuable contributions,

Ray

[amuckart]

Hi Ray,

  On 8/20/2010 at 1:30 PM, UKRay said:

The stitching is relatively straight forward tunnel stitching but I'd like to be able to make a much finer stitch. My only curved awl is a wee bit big for the job - I broke my smaller one and don't know where to get a replacement at present.

I'd also like to find a few more stitch marker wheels in different sizes...

Try and get hold of Edwin Hale at Hale & Co. http://haleandco.com/ he's got new old stock Barnsley awls in all sorts of sizes and can probably sort you out. I got some fine heel awls from him a while ago.

That said, by far the nicest awl I've ever used was made by Dick Anderson at Thornapple River Boots, http://www.thornappleriverboots.com/ he's a real gentleman and a fine craftsman. His website is out of date and doesn't reflect his current prices or stock, but if you send him a picture he can make pretty much any sort of awl you want.

Edited August 21, 2010 by amuckart

[jimsaddler]

Hi Ray

send me a PM with your address and I'll probably be able to find one for you as I've got all sizes. I'm not sure about the Stitch marker, how many Stitches per inch do you want. I've probably got a common wheel that will do the Job. One of the principles of Leather work is simplicity. Things appear very complicated but the simplest method Always turns out to be the best. Have you measured how many SPI are used on the old Scabbards? I allways found that the visible sewing was done 10 or 12 SPI but the Hidden stitching was done coarse at 6 SPI. Backing Awls (Curved Awls) are not used for fine sewing very often.

I hope this will be of assistance to you.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Saddler.

  On 8/20/2010 at 1:30 PM, UKRay said:

Hi Jim,

After reading your post I began experimenting with all kinds of leather. The process you have described is pretty much what I've now worked out for myself by trial and many errors. I'm still working on the boning process to get the 'finesse' just right but essentially, yes, I absolutely agree with everything you say. The stitching is relatively straight forward tunnel stitching but I'd like to be able to make a much finer stitch. My only curved awl is a wee bit big for the job - I broke my smaller one and don't know where to get a replacement at present.

I'd also like to find a few more stitch marker wheels in different sizes...

Best wishes and many thanks for your extremely valuable contributions,

Ray

[UKRay]

Many thanks, Al - and PM sent, JIm.

Ray