Gun Belt Tips

[particle]

I've seen some good tutorials and videos on making belts. I even have a couple books that go into the basics of belt construction (can't recall which ones off the top of my head - I'm at work). However, I don't recall seeing any of them related to gun belts specifically.

For you folks that make and sell gun belts to go with your holsters, I would appreciate hearing from you some basics of how you build your belts. Some things I'd like to know...

Do you cut your own blanks?

If you buy your blanks, where do you buy them?

What hardware will I need for a double layer 8-9oz (1/4" thick) belt for a removable buckle (snaps - what size, type, etc.)?

Do you reinforce them with Kydex, etc? Or is a basic double-layered belt enough for most people?

I guess that's about all I can think to ask at the moment. I'm at the point of needing to order the supplies for belts, and want to make sure I order the right stuff.

Thanks,

Eric

[Denster]

Eric

Weaver's has the best belt blanks and best prices I've found. Their 8/9 veg tan and 9/10 bridle leather blanks are great. You can't save enough cutting them yourself to make it worthwhile. The bridle leather makes a nice heavy belt all by itself or I line it with either 2/3 calfskin or 3/4 vegtan for a 1/4 in belt. I also like the "Pauls Buckles, keepers and tips in brass and nickle (currently on sale) however you can't use the keeper and tip over 3/16" the buckle still works great at 1/4". For fasteners I keep 1/4 and 3/8 in heavy duty chicago screws in nickle and brass and black on hand.

[particle]

Excellent - thank you Dennis. I'm glad you mentioned chicago screws - I didn't even think of those.

Edited May 17, 2010 by particle

[Lobo]

Weavers has been a good supplier for many items, but I have had problems with belt blanks from that source. Inconsistent gauging of the leather, unknown tanneries, dyes taken differently, and other problems.

I now order only Hermann Oak veg-tanned leather for everything. For belts I prefer to have 9-10 oz. sides which, after the bellies are chopped off for other uses, will yield about 15 to 18 belt blanks at 60" more or less. The bellies are usually usable for straps and other smaller items, depending on the fleshy sides. I've even gotten a few good holster patterns out of those that haven't displayed ugly surfaces or flesh sides.

A simple strap cutter (draw gauge for those of you who prefer that term) will suffice for cutting belt blanks quickly and easily. With a good blade installed it takes only a minute or two to cut your belt blank.

I offer these as single-layer 9-10 oz., suitable for most uses; lined with 4-oz. leather for heavier uses; and as 2-layer lined with 7-8 oz. for heaviest applications.

I cut my lining leathers a bit oversized, cement the main strap and lining, then trim and work the edges to a finished dimension. Heavier linings benefit from beveling prior to assembly, with a nice transition on the sewn edges.

Today was a "belt day" at my shop, with a half-dozen belts of various configurations completed along with 6 holsters and pouches. I have a nice 8-foot workbench that allows belt strap cutting, assembly, cementing, etc to be done very quickly. After cementing the 2-layer belts can be run over the belt sander, then sewn up and finished. I even had time to make happy hour at my club (less than two blocks from the shop, lucky me!).

I recommend ordering appropriate sides or double shoulders and cutting your own straps. You can control the finished product much better than any supplier is likely to do for you and the finished product will be much better.

Best regards.

[Denster]

Lobo and I have different experiences with Weaver's veg tan blanks. I haven't had the first problem with any I have received. Cross my fingers now that I've said that since I just placed another order for those and the bridle leather blanks since they are on sale. That being said there is nothing wrong with the way Lobo does it even though it doubles the cost you do have a known quality and control as you can't go wrong with HO.

[jeeperaz]

bridle leather blanks since they are on sale.

Just curious, how do/did you find out they are on sale?

[Denster]

Just curious, how do/did you find out they are on sale?

Sale flyer from Weaver's good through July.

[jeeperaz]

Sale flyer from Weaver's good through July.

Thanks.

Do you get the flyer through the mail, or online somehow?

I've been a weaver customer for a while and spent good money there. I've never heard about sales or deals. I'll call them and ask about it.

Edited May 18, 2010 by jeeperaz

[BigRiverLeather]

Here I was al ready to jump ino this too but planned on using double layer 6/7 oz. Isn't that what a lot of double layer manufacturers are using, The Beltman etc?

Double layer of 8-9 oz just seems enormous!

[Denster]

Double 8/9 is too much of a good thing. Line the 8/9 with 5/6 or 6/7 and you are good to go. Personnaly I really like the 9/10oz bridle leather lined with 2/3 calf or 3/4 veg. Makes a beautiful belt heavy enough for any reasonable application.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

I've seen some good tutorials and videos on making belts. I even have a couple books that go into the basics of belt construction (can't recall which ones off the top of my head - I'm at work). However, I don't recall seeing any of them related to gun belts specifically.

Howdy, particle.

For you folks that make and sell gun belts to go with your holsters, I would appreciate hearing from you some basics of how you build your belts. Some things I'd like to know...

Howdy, particle. The best belt advice that I have is to use high quality components like premium leather and solid brass or stainless steel hardware. There are certain mistakes that you should avoid or they will give your inexperience away, like sewing straight across the belt, using a very curved buckle that crimps the edges, or dying the backing layer so it bleeds onto a customer's clothing. Also do what you can to make the buckle lay as flat as possible, so the belt doesn't scream GUN BELT, or draw any unwanted attention; things like only using the top layer to fasten the buckle instead of folding the double layer over, use a belt punch that makes a hole big enough that the tongue can lay flatter through the belt, etc..

Do you cut your own blanks?

I cut my own blanks from backs that I order specifically for belts. I make two main belt styles, a CCW belt and a range belt. The CCW belt is made from two layers of 7 oz cowhide, and the range belt is an 8 oz. cowhide top layer backed with 7/8 oz. horsehide.

If you buy your blanks, where do you buy them?

I don't buy blanks, but there are several sources that make theirs from Hermann Oak leather. Springfield Leather is a good place to start.

What hardware will I need for a double layer 8-9oz (1/4" thick) belt for a removable buckle (snaps - what size, type, etc.)?

I'm not that fond of using snaps for belts. Chicago screws are stronger and lower profile so the belt can lay flatter at the buckle. The length of the screw will be totally dependent on the thickness of your belts. I use two different lengths depending on the style of belt I am building.

Do you reinforce them with Kydex, etc? Or is a basic double-layered belt enough for most people?

A double thickness belt made of good quality leather is enough for most applications. For law enforcement professionals or firearms instructors, I recommend a range belt to support the load that they typically must carry, i.e. the pistol, extra magazines, a radio, hand-cuffs, etc.. In my experience, stiffeners are not necessary unless you are trying to run a high-ride holster on a narrow belt. It is important that you have a good belt-slot-size to belt-size relationship between your belts and holsters so the belt has the opportunity to stabilize the holster, but is also not too difficult to thread through the slots.

I guess that's about all I can think to ask at the moment. I'm at the point of needing to order the supplies for belts, and want to make sure I order the right stuff.

You will probably find the following items useful if you plan to do everything in house:

strap cutter/draw gauge

1 1/2" english point strap end punch

1" oblong punch/slot punch

3/16" belt punch/hole punch

maul and poundo board

lexol/bick 4 or other appropriate conditioner

neatsfoot oil

foam brushes/sponges

wax block

1/8" to 3/16" edger

layout tool/scratch awl

wool daubers

awl

staples

stitch groover or edge creaser, depending on your preference

glue pot

Thanks,

Eric

[particle]

For what it's worth, I finally got a response from Weaver regarding what and where their blanks come from. Here is their response.

Thank you for your email.

I apologize for the delayed response. All of our leather is a tannery run. (approx 50% c – 25% b and 25% a) We do not offer the hide by grade. The leather is sold and we use tannery run only.

Our belts are made from a 8/9 oz leather. We use the natural tool and strap and the bridle.

Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

Edited May 19, 2010 by particle

[particle]

Thank you Boomstick for the thoughtful response. Can I ask what you use the staples for? I'm guessing maybe to hold the keeper closed until the belt can be assembled, but I really have no clue... Would you mind posting a pic or two showing how you fold over the end of the belt at the buckle?

Thanks again,

Eric

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

The staples are to connect the ends of the keeper. I just use industrial staples and crimp them on with needle nose pliers. I make the holes for them with a stitching awl. Unfortunately, I can't upload any pictures right now. My computer went the way of the Dodo, and I have a temporary solution but the current computer I am using doesn't have a card reader, nor does my camera have a USB port.

Here is a picture that I already had that might give you an idea of what I was talking about with the buckle end.

[particle]

Here is a picture that I already had that might give you an idea of what I was talking about with the buckle end.

Thank you - that tells me what I needed to know. I built a belt for myself a while back, but it was entirely hand sewn. I haven't come across any tutorials showing start-to-finish on building a basic gun belt. Guess I'll make a video of it one of these days... that is, after I figure out exactly what I'm doing!!

Thanks again.

[K-Man]

Call me stupid I guess, because I've been doing things a bit different than what's mentioned above when it comes to making the gun belts. I two layers of 6/7 oz H.O. leather (backs) that are glued and stitched together. There's a single layer extension of sorts from just beyond the slot for the buckle tongue. Where that double layer ends, just before the single layer rolls over to the backside, I sew straight across at a 90-degree angle. I've made approximately 500 belts that way and have never had an issue arise. The other thing I do is dip-dye the total belt. That means front and back get dyed whatever color. Then the belt is sealed with an acrylic finish. Never have had a report of the dye wearing off on a customer's clothes. I guess I must be doing it wrong.

Edited May 19, 2010 by K-Man

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Hey, Kevin.

I quit dying the whole belt after an unhappy customer complained that the black dye stained their pants when the belt got wet. At the time, I only sprayed my belts with acrylic to seal them (live and learn, I guess). Now I dip them in acrylic, but I still don't trust the sealant for long term use enough to dye the inside layer.

It looks like we fasten our buckles in a similar manner, with the exception of stitching straight across the belt behind the buckle. Dad taught me early on never to do that because it weakens the straps more than necessary. He compared it to perforated paper, ie "tear along the dotted line". You may have seen used horse tack before with the buckle torn off because it was stitched straight across (I know I have). Also, did you ever notice that the decorative stitching on western belts is in a pattern that curves or angles across the belt in a diagonal pattern, but not straight across? Supposedly, that is because it was considered a bad idea among old timers to sew straight across a belt.

There are some practices from saddle making that I don't use for modern holsters (like treating them with neatsfoot oil or creasing the edges to seal them better), but there are other practices that I still believe are beneficial to what I am doing. I can't think of a good reason to sew straight across the strap, but there are some possible drawbacks to it. Better safe than sorry, IMO.

[K-Man]

Stresses on the leather are generally much greater on horse tack than on a leather gun belt. I've seen horse tack that's been torn along the "perforated" line. I've been wearing one of our belts, carrying a 1911-frame style of gun nearly every day, and cinch the belt up tightly to some extent. I've been wearing this particular belt for over 2 years, every day. I'm yet to see any separation along that stitch line. So while it seems that you would potentially experience the same result on the belt as you do on the horse tack, it just doesn't happen. I'll just keep on being stupid I guess.

Edited May 20, 2010 by K-Man

[particle]

I'll just keep on being stupid I guess.

Who said you were being stupid?

K-Man - I tend to agree with you. Compared to a horse, the forces a human body is capable of expelling are minuscule, at best. Depending on the stitches per inch, I feel like there is very little chance of the belt tearing under normal use. That being said, I've heard a prosthetist talk about children and how hard they can be on their prosthetic limbs. Titanium, carbon fiber, stainless steel - they build them supposedly strong enough to support a pickup truck, but children still break them all the time. I'm an amputee myself from a motorcycle wreck in my college days. I have a fairly large build, am a bit overweight - yet I've carried loads my prosthetist would cringe if she knew, hauled thousands of pounds of stones and lumber (took a few trips...), skied, snowboarded, etc. All that, and I still managed to shatter one of my legs when I simply lunged forward to grab a shopping cart that was about to broadside a lady's car - and I have very little strength in my amputated leg...

[abn]

Who said you were being stupid?

I don't think anyone called anyone else "stupid," but I'm guessing K-Man disagrees with Boomstick's advice that sewing straight across the belt and dyeing the inside are rookie "mistakes." K-man -- far from being a rookie -- suggests he employs both techniques for good reason.

I suppose this thread just proves if you ask six leatherworkers the best way to tie a shoe, you'll get six different responses. (In which case, you get to consider each of the different techniques and choose the one that works best for you.)

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

Stresses on the leather are generally much greater on horse tack than on a leather gun belt. I've seen horse tack that's been torn along the "perforated" line. I've been wearing one of our belts, carrying a 1911-frame style of gun nearly every day, and cinch the belt up tightly to some extent. I've been wearing this particular belt for over 2 years, every day. I'm yet to see any separation along that stitch line. So while it seems that you would potentially experience the same result on the belt as you do on the horse tack, it just doesn't happen. I'll just keep on being stupid I guess.

I don't think you're being stupid. Maybe a little stubborn, though . Then again, I've been accused of being a holster construction elitist before, and my wife says I'm stubborn too....

I get what you're saying, and you could be right, but I'm not taking any chances (besides, Dad wouldn't let me hear the end of it). I think that good leather and a longer stitch spacing might even alleviate the issue entirely, but I still think that not running the stitching straight across the belt is the best answer. If it doesn't cost any more or take more time to do it the time honored way, it can add perceived value to the belt, and avoid possible long term wear issues, why not build them that way?

[K-Man]

My saying, "call me stupid," is but a figure of speech.

I don't think you're being stupid. Maybe a little stubborn, though . Then again, I've been accused of being a holster construction elitist before, and my wife says I'm stubborn too....

I get what you're saying, and you could be right, but I'm not taking any chances (besides, Dad wouldn't let me hear the end of it). I think that good leather and a longer stitch spacing might even alleviate the issue entirely, but I still think that not running the stitching straight across the belt is the best answer. If it doesn't cost any more or take more time to do it the time honored way, it can add perceived value to the belt, and avoid possible long term wear issues, why not build them that way?

And I understand what you're saying with respect to the horse tack, applying the theories you suggest. But as I pointed out, the stress is less on the gun belt than on a piece of horse tack. I sew it in that manner that I do, in part, to ensure that end of the "bottom" strap stays down. I've seen instances where the glue does not hold that part of the strap down/in place.

Doing it the time honored way doesn't always make it the best way. Nothing sends me up the flag pole faster than reading "this is the way we've always done it" in an effort to justify the means.

Surely if I had experienced, either personally or from a customer's belt, the perforation/tearing suggested then I could, and would, reconsider my approach/means whereby I make the belt. For example, I'm exceptionally rough on any equipment/product I use, be it leather gear or hand tools. I broke two Tippmann BOSS handstitchers beyond repair in very short order; I've torn up chain saws - three in a matter of three hours; and there's a litany of other examples. My point is that if I cannot personally tear it up or destroy it, then the odds are I've got a very durable product.

I think in this instance it would be best to leave it where you can say, "this is the way I've done it and met with satisfactory/non-issue results," and I can say the same. Those reading can then determine for themselves which route, or stitch line, they want to follow.

Edited May 20, 2010 by K-Man

[BigRiverLeather]

Wow. It seems a battle has ensued about right or wrong when I don't see an instance where one said the other person was doing anything wrong, only different.

I'm with abn, as with so many other things along my journey into the realm of leatherwork, I take a bit from here, and a bit from there sometimes blend a couple of differnet methods, sometimes I make it up on my own (often learning why no-one else does it that way ) and my learning curve is greatly reduced.

I like the idea of using 2 layers of 6/7 ounce, probably because I already had that stuck in my thick skull. I also like the idea of not staining the inside layer as to prevent bleedoff. No stain, no chance of bleed off ever. Plu, I really like the look, it looks like extra time and care were taken in the construction.

Frankly, I'm not even sure what part of the belt you are referring to sewing straight across (or not). At the end of the two layers before the fold over the buckle?

Anyway, I appreciate the tips from all sides. I'm really looking forward to doing some exotic skin belts.

[Lobo]

Double 8/9 is too much of a good thing. Line the 8/9 with 5/6 or 6/7 and you are good to go. Personnaly I really like the 9/10oz bridle leather lined with 2/3 calf or 3/4 veg. Makes a beautiful belt heavy enough for any reasonable application.

Perhaps I was not as clear as I might have been. Two layers of 8/9 oz. is extremely heavy. I personally prefer to line the 9/10 oz. with 4/5 oz. Attached are photos of a belt I recently completed for my own use, 1.5" width around the body, tapered to 1" at the buckle and tongue areas, with a little fancy stitching. Supports my Kimber Classic TLE easily and comfortably.

[particle]

Perhaps I was not as clear as I might have been. Two layers of 8/9 oz. is extremely heavy. I personally prefer to line the 9/10 oz. with 4/5 oz. Attached are photos of a belt I recently completed for my own use, 1.5" width around the body, tapered to 1" at the buckle and tongue areas, with a little fancy stitching. Supports my Kimber Classic TLE easily and comfortably.

Very nice! Thanks for sharing.