Your Opinion On Gun Belts...

[Rayban]

I've read on another forum a discussion concerning thickness of gun belts, meaning concealed carry types.

"They say" that two thicknesses of leather is stronger than one layer of leather that's equal to the same thickness.

In other words, two layers of 1/8", glued and stitched together is stronger than a single layer 1/4" thick.

My opinion is that, while in theory "they" may be right, it's splitting hairs in regards to a gun belt.

I can't believe a single layer will cave-in with the weight of a holster/gun hanging on it, any sooner than two layers will. Especially when we're talking 1/4" thick.

I have an "experiment" going on now with a fella that carries everyday....pictures to follow.

Meanwhile, I would like to hear/read what ya'llz think.

Thanks,

Rg

[Shorts]

I believe the strength comes from having two skin layers as the bread of your 'leather sandwich'. Then you have thread (and glue) which should hold the fibers of the leather in place over the long term better than an unglued, unstitched piece.

I'm interested to see what you find in your experiment.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Shorts

[Rayban]

I believe the strength comes from having two skin layers as the bread of your 'leather sandwich'. Then you have thread (and glue) which should hold the fibers of the leather in place over the long term better than an unglued, unstitched piece.

I'm interested to see what you find in your experiment.

Yes, in theory I will not argue with your belief...although "the long term" as you say, is of course, relative.

We'll see.....I've been wrong before......

[Shorts]

Yes, in theory I will not argue with your belief...although "the long term" as you say, is of course, relative.

We'll see.....I've been wrong before......

Knock yourself out. Like I said I'm interested to see what your experiment shows. I'm not saying which way is better. The "I believe" starting out my sentence is of the "the thought behind" what, as you said, "they say".

[gregintenn]

I'm very interested in your findings as well. Keep us posted.

Edited June 25, 2010 by gregintenn

[NoahL]

I don't carry (Yet. I finally have a handgun on layaway, though!) so I can't say anything from personal experience. That said, I'm definitely interested to see the results of this test. I was under the impression that most double-layer gun belts have a reinforcing strip of metal or plastic between the layers of leather and that was what made them sturdier than a single-layer belt of the same thickness. I could be totally wrong, though. I don't think you will see any real difference unless the cement used between the layers has a stiffening effect on the leather.

Edited June 25, 2010 by NoahL

[gregintenn]

I know that bonded wood, i.e., engineered floor joists and LVL beams are stronger than a single piece of lumber of the same dimension. I believe part of the strength comes from the glue, and part of it comes from the wood fibers running in different directions. I would assume that leather would be similar, as they are both natural fiber filled products. Just a guess.

[katsass]

I know that bonded wood, i.e., engineered floor joists and LVL beams are stronger than a single piece of lumber of the same dimension. I believe part of the strength comes from the glue, and part of it comes from the wood fibers running in different directions. I would assume that leather would be similar, as they are both natural fiber filled products. Just a guess.

I'll jump on the band wagon also......I'm certainly interested. Since I make almost all of my holsters from a double layer of leather it would be interesting to see if a matching belt would retain it's firmness better than a single thickness belt. I do know that any belt will take a 'set' from constant wear by the individual wearing it, however, will a single thickness retain the rigidity where the holster is worn, as well, or better than, a double layer belt? This is the question. How long do you plan to test? Mike

[Shorts]

I'll jump on the band wagon also......I'm certainly interested. Since I make almost all of my holsters from a double layer of leather it would be interesting to see if a matching belt would retain it's firmness better than a single thickness belt. I do know that any belt will take a 'set' from constant wear by the individual wearing it, however, will a single thickness retain the rigidity where the holster is worn, as well, or better than, a double layer belt? This is the question. How long do you plan to test? Mike

Definitely a good question.

Which brings me to another, what's the life expectancy range for a gun belt (leather only, no kydex reinforcement)? Belts are worn for years. But are they worn for years because they last? Or are they worn for years because the owner gets use to it and doesn't see how its gone from strong to not so strong over time?

I wonder what the mathematical equation is for support for weight over time? :brainbleach:

[Rayban]

My "field tester" has agreed to wear the belt daily for a year......I'll check it, take pictures at 3 month intervals or so.

We should be able to get an idea how it's gonna hold up by then.

Makes sense to me that a user wears any belt as long as it's in good enough shape to effectively serve it's intended purpose (?).

Hold the pants up, or haul a rig around.

Rg

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

ALL belts stretch or wear out in some fashion, including double thickness belts, nylon belts and even kydex reinforced belts. How long they last has just as much to do with how they are used and maintained as how they are constructed. Subject A might carry a Walther PPS in an IWB holster occasionally during the cool season in Vermont, while Subject B is carrying a full sized Sig 226 with two extra magazines, a flashlight, handcuffs and a radio every day throughout the summer in Arkansas (think high humidity and stifling heat). A single thickness belt is more than adequate for the person with the Walther, but the one with the Sig would probably wear out a single thickness belt in a matter of months, whereas a double thickness belt could last six times as long under those conditions.

The over all thickness of the belt is not the biggest determining factor in the belts longevity or strength. Since the top grain has a lot more density and strength than the flesh side, having twice the top grain in a belt makes a big difference in strength and rigidity vs. a single layer belt of the same thickness. That's just reality. Imagine a double thick gun belt of the same thickness made from splits - it wouldn't be nearly as strong or hold its shape as well as a single thickness belt of the same size, just like a double thickness belt would be even stronger still. I'm not saying that the weaker belts won't be adequate to meet the needs of certain individuals, but the stronger belts will still be superior.

[badasp118]

Okay I'm going to ad my two cents worth. As someone that has carried a gun 24/7 for 20 years I have a bit of insite on this subject. I do believe that a double thickness belt is a great thing and gives a very stable platform for a holster. Now I carry in kansas, ie heat humidity etc and I have always used a single thickness Jaypee brand 8-9 oz garrison belt. It has always supported my weapon well and as my carry gun has been a fullsize 1911 or sig P220 neither of which is a lightweight I would say that the belt has held up well. I still use the same belt to this day. Some days its loaded down with extra mags, radio, cuffs etc, some days just the gun. As a police firearms instructor I always recommend to my guys a quality holster and belt. I would go out on a limb to say double is prefered but I believe quality is the key. And the belt loops and belt being the same size. 1 1/4 belt with 1 3/4 holster loops is bad ju ju, lol. I believe the belt and holster should be bought to compliment each other not put together piecemeal. Just my opinion but it comes from many years of experience....thanks for listening...

Badasp118

Edited June 27, 2010 by badasp118

[horsewreck]

Good debate on this one folks. One of the reasons we laminate belts is to be able to use the same leather (weight and color) as the holsters we make, also making a laminated belt allows us to bridge any weakness (seen or unseen) in our strap, and we should end up with less stretch than "some" single ply belts. So across the board the points go to the two ply deal. That having been said, Being a saddle guy I deal in a lot of heavy leather 15,16oz.. When we start with a new side of leather we first true up the top line in order to cut say stirrup leathers from this best part of the hide. In the act of make this first cut I often end up with a piece of heavy leather large enough to make a belt. Keep in mind this is 16oz. stuff. Single ply belts from this first cut near the butt on the top line of the hide are as good as single ply belts get, and I have a ready market from gun haulers and construction workers for these belts. Bottom line, I make and wear both types of belts and have examples of both belts that I have worn for over a decade, one of which is a doubled and stitched that I have worn the stitching off where the holster sits and now the stitch holes are closed up but I still wear it several times a week (my wife thinks she threw it away). The rest of the time I wear a single ply belt that I made @12 years ago that started out saddle tan and is now near black from age and wear (just getting good). My test has the following results. 1. Good belts can be made either way. 2. Across the board making laminated belts allows us to make belts from further down the hide than we can with single ply leather, and most holster maker's are not saddle guys and gals so they don't use a lot of 16oz. leather in their day to day work. 3. If holster makers turn out mostly laminated holster belts I will continue to corner the market on the single ply jobs.... HAVE A GREAT DAY!!!!

[MADMAX22]

Would like to add about my double layer belts I have made. Although rarely used for carry right now I have noticed that my double layer belts take a good two months of constant wear to actually form to the wearer around the hip area and such. I have received one belt back after a year of being worn by a hard working shipyard mechanic who wore the belt continuously during hard jobs in high temp, wet, sweaty, oily conditions. After a year or so it was still in good shape, dirty and stained with a few scratches and such but overall construction and usability of the belt was still very good. It showed very little wear besides the above described use. I think she said it took about a month and a half to break in and get comfortable which is about my experience. Would like to add that the belt stopped her in her tracks a few times when it was snagged on metal items sticking out. I must say I was pleased with how well it held up.

One thing you will notice is with woman it usually takes longer to break in because it has to form to there hips more (at least generally) as compared to men who have less defined hips usually.

Edited July 2, 2010 by MADMAX22

[horsewreck]

Would like to add about my double layer belts I have made. Although rarely used for carry right now I have noticed that my double layer belts take a good two months of constant wear to actually form to the wearer around the hip area and such. I have received one belt back after a year of being worn by a hard working shipyard mechanic who wore the belt continuously during hard jobs in high temp, wet, sweaty, oily conditions. After a year or so it was still in good shape, dirty and stained with a few scratches and such but overall construction and usability of the belt was still very good. It showed very little wear besides the above described use. I think she said it took about a month and a half to break in and get comfortable which is about my experience. Would like to add that the belt stopped her in her tracks a few times when it was snagged on metal items sticking out. I must say I was pleased with how well it held up.

One thing you will notice is with woman it usually takes longer to break in because it has to form to there hips more (at least generally) as compared to men who have less defined hips usually.

Have you tried cutting the belt blank with a slight dip or bow to it? Many feel this shape works best when new..... Jeff

[Rayban]

Here is my "experiment" piece.

Please try to look through my lousy vinegeroon job, but it turned out kinda rustic looking, and we both liked it.

The belt leather is Wickett & Craig, and runs about .200 thick. Pictures here show it at about a week of wear so no real wear to report except for a small indent nake the holster made in the belt.

As you can see the rig is meant for casual attire...in this case.......very retired.

[MADMAX22]

Have you tried cutting the belt blank with a slight dip or bow to it? Many feel this shape works best when new..... Jeff

Sorry for late reply. I have read about that but have not tried it. With my abilities I think it would take alot more for me to try and get the measurements correct with that type of cut. I have a hard enough time as it is lol. If I get better at making them I will have to give it a shot.

[Rayban]

Have you tried cutting the belt blank with a slight dip or bow to it? Many feel this shape works best when new..... Jeff

That's one I won't buy in to.

A regular flat belt will take on it's own "dip" after just a couple uses......to build in that dip, IMO, is a waste of time and leather.

[K-Man]

My experience has been that single-layer belts will sag - sooner rather than later. In addition, a test for me is if I can pinch the top and bottom edge of the belt over with my fingers. I've been able to do that in every instance with a single-layer belt. Have not been able to do it with a double-layer belt that is made with 6/7 oz leather, or similar.

When a belt that is carrying a gun starts to sag, it shifts the weight to the side the holster/gun is on. You most often have the barrel of gun/holster poking into the body, and the shift of the weight pulls the belt into the side of the body on the opposite side. It creates a great deal of discomfort.

What I believe Madmax22 is referring to is a contour-cut belt. These belts are most often cut for/used by women. The top edge of the belt is shorter in circumference than the bottom edge. This essentially causes the belt to flair out when worn, and more closely follows the line of a woman's hips. A straight cut belt on a flaired hip causes discomfort on the hips because it's pushing directly down into the hip. You add in the weight of the gun and it compounds the fact.

Edit to add: In addition, when the lady attempts to tighten the belt, because the top edge of a straight-cut belt is sticking out from the body, that creates a great deal of tension along the bottom edge of the belt. That tension is forcing itself into the woman's hips. This, in turn, creates discomfort.

Edited July 8, 2010 by K-Man

[horsewreck]

That's one I won't buy in to.

A regular flat belt will take on it's own "dip" after just a couple uses......to build in that dip, IMO, is a waste of time and leather.

Most of the belts I make are cut straight through, but if I'm making a heavy strap gun belt, and say the person is a small waisted lady or a guy with a beer belly, comfort can be an issue and this is where I would make one with the dip in it. It is true "most" belts will dip after a couple uses, but I thought we were talking about belts that aren't supposed to give....

[Rayban]

My experience has been that single-layer belts will sag - sooner rather than later. In addition, a test for me is if I can pinch the top and bottom edge of the belt over with my fingers. I've been able to do that in every instance with a single-layer belt.

Thanks, I tried that with this 14 oz. (1-1/2" wide) belt I just made for myself, no can do.

[Rayban]

Most of the belts I make are cut straight through, but if I'm making a heavy strap gun belt, and say the person is a small waisted lady or a guy with a beer belly, comfort can be an issue and this is where I would make one with the dip in it. It is true "most" belts will dip after a couple uses, but I thought we were talking about belts that aren't supposed to give....

It's MO that "giving" to the contour of your body, and "sagging" from the weight of a holster/gun, are two different things.

[BOOMSTICKHolsters]

I had an acquaintance that swore up and down his single ply 14 oz. Hermann Oak belt was "just as good as" the double thickness belts that I make. He even teased me about it occasionally because he knew that I disagreed. This went on for a little over a year, until his "just as good" belt developed a bit of sag and some wrinkling on the edges. He was still very convinced that it was still serviceable and as good as ever, though. I finally gave him a double layered belt for free and told him to let me know what he thought after a while. He has been using this belt for daily carry for almost three years now, and he recently admitted that the double layer belt has proven far superior in comfort, wear and stability. Sometimes you don't know what you don't know.

A single ply belt may be good enough for specific applications, but don't kid yourself; it is not as good as a quality built double ply belt of the same weight. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, all belts will eventually wear out, but a double thickness belt will wear better longer. Physics are physics, and that's the way it is whether we want to acknowledge it or not.

[horsewreck]

It's MO that "giving" to the contour of your body, and "sagging" from the weight of a holster/gun, are two different things.

A real stiff single or double ply belt can cause a comfort issue bad enough to where the customer will stop wearing the belt before it "gives" enough to feel comfortable , my point is that most belts that "sag" are belts that may also "give " easily to the body shape. Simply put on gun packers that may experience comfort issues from a stiff belt due to their body build it may not be a bad idea to build the belt on a contour. As I stated on most of belts I build I don't build them on the contour, but cut them straight away,and that's on single and double ply belts. I brought up building them on contour as a reply to Madmax who had noticed a long break in period on a ladies work belt. Also as K-Man noted due to some body shapes belts cut on a contour don't tend to have these comfort issues in the first. I'm sure we have all heard of Galco Holsters, they have been making their CB4 & CB3 belts on the contour for many years, and I like many other leather guys I proudly stole their design several years ago. If body build is an issue I use the contour, if it is not an issue I don't..... Jeff

[cowhide]

I've read on another forum a discussion concerning thickness of gun belts, meaning concealed carry types.

"They say" that two thicknesses of leather is stronger than one layer of leather that's equal to the same thickness.

In other words, two layers of 1/8", glued and stitched together is stronger than a single layer 1/4" thick.

My opinion is that, while in theory "they" may be right, it's splitting hairs in regards to a gun belt.

I can't believe a single layer will cave-in with the weight of a holster/gun hanging on it, any sooner than two layers will. Especially when we're talking 1/4" thick.

I have an "experiment" going on now with a fella that carries everyday....pictures to follow.

Meanwhile, I would like to hear/read what ya'llz think.

Thanks,

Rg

Rg, I agree with you. a 9/10oz double shoulder or 9/10 double butt is not going to cave in. the first thing that will give out on a stitch belt is the stitching.