Relining Skirts

[bruce johnson]

I want to get a little discussion going on an article in the latest LCSJ on relining saddle skirts. There were a few things in there I guess I never thought about doing. The first was using thinned down dextrin paste and weighting the skirts to make it stick. He mentioned using that so you could pull the wool off easily later. Fair enough I guess, but I haven’t had much of an issue with getting skirts off that were rubber cemented on. Are there any advantages to the dextrin that people who haven’t used it much need to know?

The other thing was his complaints with all the ring shank nails holding on the rigging with the pocketed bars in his example pictures. I’d sure agree with that, but I approach it differently. Nobody ever told me to leave the riggings on the tree, I just do. I cut the stitches to the skirts and leave the riggings in place. When the woolskins need replacing, generally the thread or lace used on the pocketed bars is ready to be replaced too. There are a few that the thread has worn or rotted out and the skirts fall away long before the fleece has worn. I reline and then usually resew the pocketed bars back through the original holes. Most of these were originally handsewn about 3 or 4 spi, so not a huge deal to do it on the stand. Not as easy as lugs, and I charge more replacing wool on pocketed bars vs. lugs to reflect that time spent resewing.

Sometimes I will go ahead and trim back the excess and put lugs in on replacements. I usually do this for the pocketed bars/riggings that were machine sewn and the stitch line was cut close enough there is not enough good leather on the pocket to sew through. Any thoughts on any of this?

[jwwright]

Bruce, I've never used any of the paste, but I have had a couple of discussions about it with a friend who has been building saddles for 50 years. He uses rubber cement on his skirt linings.................but does still use some paste on swell covers sometimes that have quite a bit of undercut to the swells. He commented that he figured most of skirt linings they used to put on with the paste probably turned loose somewhat during the first few rides. I personally use rubber cement on the linings.

I also leave the rigs on the tree when doing a reline job. When possible / practical I convert those pocketed rigs over to lug straps. JW

[mulefool]

I have never used the paste to line new skirts, but I have relined many that were originally put together with it. I've never liked it because as you're taking it apart the paste comes out as a fine powder, or sometimes it comes off in chunks. If you don't see it or brush your table off well enough and then get some water on it makes a mess. Chris

[horsewreck]

Good topic, I use dextrin paste quite a lot. I put it under swell covers, horn caps and wraps, and I have even thought about putting it on my oatmeal in the morning. I know it is old school stuff but I like it because it works well for putting on pieces that are wet, it allows you to move a part around to get it where you want, it fills small voids, and it seems to stiffen the leather slightly as it soaks in and dries. That said I do not use it to put on skirt linings. In my area I very seldom remove a synthetic lining and replace it with woolskin as Dick has done in his article. Most of my relines are woolskin that has failed, and often we are going back with a Kodel or better yet 100% wool on a synthetic backer. In our hot and humid area woolskin does not hold up well over time and tends to let go of its fleece. On the other hand the only synthetic linings we replace are the cheap ones we call teddy bear material that is put on the real low end mass produced saddles. I have a saddle in my shop right now I built a few years ago and the first thing that has brought it back to the saddle shop is hair lose. I have started to use more 100% wool but on a sturdy synthetic backer, I know its not old school but it keeps the saddles out of the shop. I would warn anyone not to use dextrin or any other gooey water based cements on synthetic backer material as it will come through the material and gum up the fuzz.

I don't care for ring shank nails used on parts that will have to be removed in future repairs. I like the old hot dipped galv. nails as they hold well but can be removed, its too bad they have all but disappeared from supply stores. The mass producers of saddles do use to many ring shank nails that are hard to remove, but they make up for it with their use of staples that fall out on their own.

As far as bar pockets go. most of the time I will leave them on the saddle and hand sew them back through the new wool...... Jeff

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

OK, for my two cents. I have never used the dextrin. I do use rubber contact cement almost exclusively. I sometimes use 3M Super 77 on some leather projects, but; that's another story. When re-fleecing a saddle, I only use sheep skin, and as for the pockets vs the lugs, I personally use lugs when I can, and only re-pocket a saddle if it is at the customers request. Most generally, I leave the rigging in place unless it requires replacing. Now then, for ring shank nails, I don't use them, in fact I have started to use less and less of the blue tacks also. On the last two saddles I took to using #6 X 1" drywall screws in place of where I normally would use blue tacks that I have to keep putting in half way and then removing (never counted, but; I wouldn't be surprised if we assemble and take apart a saddle 100 times during fitting of pieces and construction)and in place of ring shank nails. They hold better, I believe they are stronger, and most importantly, they can be put in and taken out numorous times easily with out accidently making marks on the leather. I would be interested if I am the only one doing that or what you guys think of the dry-wall screws idea.

Bondo Bob

[dirtclod]

Bondo Bob i don't think i would use the dry wall screws on a saddle becuase their pretty brittle. Put one in a vice and bend it will a pair pf pliers. It will break right off. I use screws but i try to get stainless steel ones for use on a saddle because their alot stronger.

John

[aermotor]

Bondo Bob i don't think i would use the dry wall screws on a saddle becuase their pretty brittle. Put one in a vice and bend it will a pair pf pliers. It will break right off. I use screws but i try to get stainless steel ones for use on a saddle because their alot stronger.

John

Bruce,

I use a wheat wallpaper paste. It was recommended to me by another saddlemaker. The advantage over rubber cement is that if the saddle ever gets wet, the paste will reattach, and the rubber cement will not. I use the "Golden Harvest" brand of wallpaper paste. It comes in an 8-ounce box. I mix about one-quarter cup at a time...thinned down to a gravy texture. After gluing the wool skins down, I lay a saddle blanket over them and weight them down for several days to allow proper drying. This is also easy to work with on horn wraps and swell covers.

Aermotor

[horsewreck]

Aermotor, Is wheat paste a brother to dextrin? As I understand it dextrin is modified starch of wheat or corn. What is in wall paper paste besides wheat starch? Sounds like you use the wall paper paste for the same things dextrin is used for, horn cap & wraps, swell covers and so on. Just wondering.... Jeff

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Dirt Clod, guess I didn't make it clear enough. I use D W screws in place of the tacks that I have to keep putting in and taking out during the construction of the saddle. At the end, for final assembly I do use stainless.

Bondo Bob

[aermotor]

Jeff,

I think the dextrin and the wheat paste are very similar. I think the wallpaper paste may have mold inhibitors in it. I've only heard the older makers refer to it as wheat paste anyway. Bob Marrs in Amarillo is the one that recommended it to me, so I know that it has been proven.

Thanks,

Aermotor

[horsewreck]

Jeff,

I think the dextrin and the wheat paste are very similar. I think the wallpaper paste may have mold inhibitors in it. I've only heard the older makers refer to it as wheat paste anyway. Bob Marrs in Amarillo is the one that recommended it to me, so I know that it has been proven.

Thanks,

Aermotor

Aermotor, I guess I will have to get some wallpaper paste and do a side by side test with the dextrin. I like to mix dextrin the day before I need it, because it always has lumps in it when I make a fresh batch, but let it sit overnight and it's pretty and smooth ready to go. Sometimes I will hold some for several days in an air tight jar, but it will start to mold after a few days. Knowing Bob Marrs has used it, says to me that it has merit. Thanks for the feedback..... Jeff

[gtwister09]

Bruce,

For some odd reason this one made it past me.

In reviewing some of the responses in the older saddlemaker's interviewing/project, I have run across several that are using dextrin and a couple that had changed to wallpaper paste. Most of the comments that I got concerning the dextrin were either that was the way they were taught or it was already on hand. Most of them used it for the undercut swells even if they didn't use it for the woolskins. Several of these guys really didn't pay attention to how well the dextrin held up because they were more concerned with getting them loose to replace them. A couple of them thought that the dextrin held it for a while and then broke loose which made it easy to replace woolskins. In fact the majority of them said most of theirs were "mostly" loose when they came in to be relined. To them it made the relining job easier by not having to work to remove the woolskins.

However the wallpaper paste ones said that they were sticking pretty well after many years and some steam would loosen them right up. They were pretty happy with the results and yes they liked the fact that it wouldn't mold (both commented on that fact).

Regards,

Ben

[bdt46]

I started making saddles in the mid 1960's, and it was still fairly common to use dextrin or cellulose paste to keep the woolskins in place on skirts. But as earlier posts have stated , there was the problem of the wool coming loose later. Sometime after being wet the woolskins could stretch and become loose on the skirts. So now I use rubber cement on both new and repair linings. I still use dextrin paste on swell covers, horn covers and back cantle covers. To stop molding of the paste, I add a spoonful of rubbing alchohol, and use an airtight container. Seems to keep for a prolonged period of time without any mold forming.

[gtwister09]

bdt46,

I have used Listerine as well for a mold inhibitor in dextrine as well.

Regards,

Ben

[hidepounder]

Bruce,

Thanks for the great topic! I'm glad you started this because it's something I've been wondering about. I was in a shop a few months ago and watched a saddlemaker reline a pair of skirts with new woolskin using Masters cement. I wondered at the time about how you'd ever get it off again. I wasn't about to ask of course and I think I'll keep this saddlemakers identity to myself, but I have often wondered if that was a bad deal. My personal experience with Barge and Masters is that it doesn't break down, but maybe that's not true. Anyway, I noticed that no one claimed to use a contact cement on re-lines which basically answered my question about the job I watched a couple of months ago. Thoughts?

Bobby

[Billy H]

Hey Guys,

What a great place to sit with a cup of Joe!

I am a rookie with only 4 saddles under my belt, so when I comment I want that up front.

It seems to me and also it was the way I was taught, when building a saddle-- build it to last not to build for easy repair. ( Hope that does not come across wrong )

I might look at things differently if I start reparing more often though.

40 years ago my Dad bought me a Ted Aldal saddle, what a great saddle, built to last! Now it needs new wool. I will not mind taking a little extra time with getting the old stuff off.

I figure I will use contact cement like on a new one.

Again a rookie-- Why is wall Paper paste good for swell covers and horn covers? Thanks Billy

[horsewreck]

Bruce,

Thanks for the great topic! I'm glad you started this because it's something I've been wondering about. I was in a shop a few months ago and watched a saddlemaker reline a pair of skirts with new woolskin using Masters cement. I wondered at the time about how you'd ever get it off again. I wasn't about to ask of course and I think I'll keep this saddlemakers identity to myself, but I have often wondered if that was a bad deal. My personal experience with Barge and Masters is that it doesn't break down, but maybe that's not true. Anyway, I noticed that no one claimed to use a contact cement on re-lines which basically answered my question about the job I watched a couple of months ago. Thoughts?

Bobby

Bobby, I have run in to more than a few saddles that have been relined using contact cement to hold the wool on. It does hold tight but can be peeled off to reline with some effort. In his 1982 book "Making and Repairing Western Saddles" Dave Jones directs the reader to use contact cement to put down the wool. I even recall one saddlemaker who said in his catalog, he used Epoxy to put his woolskins on. His reasoning was that neetsfoot oil would cause even contact cement to fail and let go. It seems to me that it would take a lot of oil to do that. Go figure!... Jeff

[Ken Nelson]

Bruce,

Thanks for the great topic! I'm glad you started this because it's something I've been wondering about. I was in a shop a few months ago and watched a saddlemaker reline a pair of skirts with new woolskin using Masters cement. I wondered at the time about how you'd ever get it off again. I wasn't about to ask of course and I think I'll keep this saddlemakers identity to myself, but I have often wondered if that was a bad deal. My personal experience with Barge and Masters is that it doesn't break down, but maybe that's not true. Anyway, I noticed that no one claimed to use a contact cement on re-lines which basically answered my question about the job I watched a couple of months ago. Thoughts?

Bobby

In my opinion, You are right on the mark with your observation. I use rubber cement on sheepskins both new and relines. I took a woolskin out that had been put in with contact a couple of years ago, what a JOB! Ken

[Hennessy]

Bruce,

Thanks for the great topic! I'm glad you started this because it's something I've been wondering about. I was in a shop a few months ago and watched a saddlemaker reline a pair of skirts with new woolskin using Masters cement. I wondered at the time about how you'd ever get it off again. I wasn't about to ask of course and I think I'll keep this saddlemakers identity to myself, but I have often wondered if that was a bad deal. My personal experience with Barge and Masters is that it doesn't break down, but maybe that's not true. Anyway, I noticed that no one claimed to use a contact cement on re-lines which basically answered my question about the job I watched a couple of months ago. Thoughts?

Bobby

for wot its worth! i had a boot n shoe repair business for 5 years back in early 80'z kinda helped me along untill my rodeo gear got goin.one neat trick out of th trade is how to unstick barge and masters or any rubber cement.,i've used it hundreds of times i'm sure,you must use rubber cement thinner nothing else in thinners,get a dauber or fake sheepskin wet it good with thinner i put it down on top side [backside if you can] skirting,whatever on old wool skirt liner start in a corner n lift enough to get a peel goin.give the thinner a few minutes to penetrate it'll surprise you on how easy it makes things go pete

[Saddlebag]

When i was in book/document repair/restoration we used a glue called Planatol. This is a white glue that resembles white carpenter's glue except Planatol is water soluble. It holds very well, and isn't real fast to set up. It can be thinned with water. Anything we did had to be undoable so Planatol was our choice. It's at any book repair supply house.