Head Knife....i Want To Make One

[Thumper]

Greetings,

I'm pretty good with my hands and I hate having to pay full retail on a head knife when I can maybe find the metal blank and then make the handle and such out of wood for myself. Just looking to safe a bit of money and to contour a handle that fits my hand nicely.

I'm a woodworking trying to learn and teach his kids leather work....so I'm just trying to gather up tools to get started.

Anybody have a head knife blank that I can buy or know where I can order one from?

[seveneves]

Greetings,

I'm pretty good with my hands and I hate having to pay full retail on a head knife when I can maybe find the metal blank and then make the handle and such out of wood for myself. Just looking to safe a bit of money and to contour a handle that fits my hand nicely.

I'm a woodworking trying to learn and teach his kids leather work....so I'm just trying to gather up tools to get started.

Anybody have a head knife blank that I can buy or know where I can order one from?

I saw on youtube how a guy made on a knife out of an old circular saw blade. It seemed to work just fine.

[Thumper]

I saw on youtube how a guy made on a knife out of an old circular saw blade. It seemed to work just fine.

I have a couple of those laying around in my shop. Should be hard enough steel to hold a decent edge. I'll have to look into that.

[TwinOaks]

A circular saw blade is too thick to be a good head knife. They are also commonly a mild steel with carbide tips, and you'll find some very light lines in them which are actually cuts to allow expansion and contraction. They WILL separate if they have the opportunity. I suggest using an old crosscut saw/hand saw. The blade is much thinner to start, and that makes it easier to cut, grind, profile, and heat treat. I think it's Electrathon that was making some quarter-round knives that way, picking up the old saws from flea markets and yard sales. Check his posts or search for headknives along with his name.

[Thumper]

A circular saw blade is too thick to be a good head knife. They are also commonly a mild steel with carbide tips, and you'll find some very light lines in them which are actually cuts to allow expansion and contraction. They WILL separate if they have the opportunity. I suggest using an old crosscut saw/hand saw. The blade is much thinner to start, and that makes it easier to cut, grind, profile, and heat treat. I think it's Electrathon that was making some quarter-round knives that way, picking up the old saws from flea markets and yard sales. Check his posts or search for headknives along with his name.

Thanks Mike. Appreciate the info.

I have an old handsaw around the shop I could use for that. I'll have a look-see next week when I get some time at home to look through the shop a bit.

[gtwister09]

The closest thing that I have seen to a stock blade similar to a round knife would be the Ulu blades. They are not round knifes by any stretch of the imagination but as I said before they are the closest "stock" precut blade out there. There are a few variations of them. I know Jantz carries them.

Jantz

FYI. Here's some thickness data. I miked several hand saws, circular saw blades, round and half round knives. See Below.

Hand Saw / Thickness

Stanley New Rip / 0.05

Stanley Old Crosscut / 0.04

Stanley Old Rip / 0.04

Stanley Old Crosscut / 0.05

Stanley New Crosscut / 0.05

Stanley FatMax / 0.06

Blade / Thickness

Milwaukee Endurance / 0.05

Oldham Combo/Finish / 0.10

B & D Combo Rip/CC / 0.05

Dewalt Hardi-Plank / 0.06

Vermont Amer Smooth / 0.06

Dewalt Plywood Panel / 0.04

Amana Plywood Panel / 0.04

Dewalt Combo Rip/CC / 0.05

Amana CC / 0.05

Several of these circular saw blades had no carbide and no relief lines cut in them. The relief cuts are there to prevent warping as the blades heats and cools (expands and contracts).

I also miked some round and half round blades that I could easily get to.

Round Knife / Thickness

Rose / 0.08

Rose / 0.08

Marlin / 0.06

Marlin / 0.06

Osborne / 0.06

Half Round Knife / Thickness

Marlin / 0.06

Osborne / 0.07

All of these blades were measured at the top of the blade to show the actual thickness w/o the profiles. Most of them are profiled from the tip to the top of the blade.

That gives you some data points to chew upon. Oh yes.... The thickest ones on the list are the ones I consider to be some of the best blades out there...the Roses. I know others consider them to be great steel as well regardless of their thickness.

Regards,

Ben

Edited July 30, 2010 by gtwister09

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

I am also a member of iforgeiron.com , and they have a knife forum that has a lot of info on knife materials that can be scrounged. You may even find a smith in your area that can forge you a custom blade, or at least help you out some.

I noticed that the saw blades Mic thinner than the head knives, which is understandable. When you are leaning on a knife you don't want it to bend-unless it is a fillet knife. A stiffer blade will give straighter cut, and veer off less.

[dangerdan46819]

Actually a circular saw blade is the correct material to use for a head knife. Just not one that had carbide tips. The carbide tip blades are a lower quality steel because they are not using the steel to do the cutting just to support the tips. An all steel blade is made of 1080 steel the same stuff you can make knives out of. I am in the process of finding some blades drawing up the rough round knife blade and having a friend who owns a waterjet cut them out. I plan on tapering the tang just like a file and using a file handle. Also I am going to put a couple holes throught the tang so I can rivet the blade to the handle. I can probably get them cut out for 10 to 15 dollars per blank.

I travel a lot so it'll take awhile...let you know how it goes.

[electrathon]

Wow, am I ever late to the party. I made a few playing areound a few years ago. Old handsaw blades are a pretty good economy choice, a fair amount of carbon, easily available and about the proper thickness without having to thin them down. Attached is a pic of the one I liked the most. Circular blades are pretty low carbon. Not sure if the 1080 mentioned is correct, but if it is it is definatly a bad choice. That would make a very easy to sharpen knife that would hold an edge for about half of a cut. High carbon is harder to sharpen and holds an edge acordingly.

[dangerdan46819]

Carbon

: Present in all steels, it is the most important hardening element. Also increases the strength of the steel but, added in isolation, decreases toughness. We usually want knife-grade steel to have >.5% carbon, which makes it "high-carbon" steel.

1080 has .75 to .88 carbon very high holds a very good edge and is tough.

[Les No6]

DangerDan isright 1080 makes very a good knife the old knives are made from hot forged (hot rolled sheet) 1080 or simular including leather knives and cut throat razors, if you are making a knife for cost reasons don't bother once you factor in the cost and time it's cheaper to buy a good quality head knife such as Dixons. There are many factors that go into making a good knife, profile (compound taper), and heat treatment, get these wrong even if you are using high end crucible steel such as M4 you'll end up with a poorly performing knife. Old saw blade are probably going to be 1080 or similar and will be the wrong temper for a cutting edge only the teeth are tempered hard the rest is probably sping tempered, this steel wants annealing making it easier to work once you have done all the cutting and most of the grinding then heat treating to the required temper (hardness, toughness) then finishing and the cutting edge ground.

[dangerdan46819]

Awesome design on your blade Electrathon....any drawings available or all from scratch.

[Massive]

Just in my own work, I normally make my own tools, and I do it a lot, when I either want something I can't get, or because I just can't stop myself, so I am making the tool just for the experience. If the tool is available there is rarely any reason to make it to save money. Between sales, ebay, etc... one will find a cheaper version for sale than one can make. Occasionally there are hugely overpriced tools that are simple enough one can beat the price at home but it is rare in my work.

Head knives, as far as I can tell, fall into a catagory of tools that are made to be constantly honed. There are several reasons why certain tools fall into this category. Tools with fine edges and very high cutting power, are often made this way. It is better to leave the edge soft so it can be reset to the base thickness and to stop it, that it is to make it super hard. A tool might also be too hard and parts of the edge break off. There are certain industrial uses where constant edge maintenance is more fluid than breaking off and honing an edge. Examples are scythes, straight razors, butcher knives, and maybe head knives. So if one is down with that, there are flat stock blue tempered steels readily avaialble that can be converted into head knives. These will not require heat treating, but they will not be super hard either. Around rockwell 50. These are used by woodworkers to make new, custom saws costing hundreds of dollars, so you too can leave the precious (in some cases) antique saws alone and get nice quality exact size stock for your head knife projects.

Blue-Tempered Steel Shim Stock :

Look down the page

http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Shim-Stock/1010.html

[Mjolnir131]

That's 1010 really not good for anything with an edge.

[Leela Valley Leather]

http://www.victornet.com/alphabetic/Spring-Steel/1306.html

C% 0.90-1.03 too high in carbon?

[Mjolnir131]

If you temper it right then yes.Start thicker than your end goal and draw if out remember 5 minutes hammer time saves 30 min on the grinder.

[TwinOaks]

The main reason head knives get dull is not because of planned obsolescence. It's because it's cutting through a chemically corrosive material - leather. That's also why most knives only need a good stropping.

Take the time to read the thread on the swivel knife blades - steel vs. ceramic. Shtoink did a very good job explaining his findings.

If you think that the commercial blades are expensive, please consider the time and money that went into R&D for the final product.

[pabloz]

Take the time to read the thread on the swivel knife blades - steel vs. ceramic. Shtoink did a very good job explaining his findings.

TO,

I tried to find this thread and was unsuccessful. Would you please locate it and link as I would love to read it and learn from it.

Thanks,

PZ

[TwinOaks]

Sure thing...although I think I may be remembering parts of several threads. This one has most of the information:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=43296&hl=stropping#entry269804

And just to clarify, this was talking mostly about ceramic blades and the reasons to strop them...which also apply to steel. The comparison between the ceramic and steel is also talking about standard blades, not the blades from the SK3.

[switzforge]

While I am not the most experienced leatherworker around and have never actually used a head knife. It is also on my list of tolls to make. I have however been maiking knives and other tools for quite some time. Old saw blades with out the added carbide teeth should be excelent blade steel As would be the 0.90% - 1.03% steel mentioned by the last poster. The issue with any home made cutting tool is that you must either make it from already hardened and tempered steel or you must be able to do the herdening and tempering yourself. Cutting and shaping hardened steel isn't very easy and if you get it to hot while grinding you will remove some of the temper resulting in a softer area.

I think making a head knife sounds like a great project. But it is the perfect example of investing $200 in labor for a $50 item.

[TwinOaks]

But it is the perfect example of investing $200 in labor for a $50 item.

....or quite a bit more!

[Wanderinstar]

I have found aDon Carlos quater moon knife for sale over this side of the pond for £28.25. Does anyone have any experience of these knives?

Ian

[shtoink]

But it is the perfect example of investing $200 in labor for a $50 item.

Well, if it isn't worth overdoing, is it worth doing at all?

[Mjolnir131]

Tempering is easy , so if hammering them out really.

[Matt S]

I have found aDon Carlos quater moon knife for sale over this side of the pond for £28.25. Does anyone have any experience of these knives?

Ian

JT Bachelor is selling Woodware/Barnsley single and double head knives for a decent price (about £13 and £17 exc if I recall). They aren't fancy but really do the job. Sharpening goes without saying.