Vinagroon Questions

[Vikefan]

I have been interested in Vinagroon as a way to blacken some of my projects. I made a batch of Vinegroon about six months ago and used it once and had pretty good results with it. Now after six months, it did not seem to work as well. My stamped/tooled belt came out a greyish brown/tan color.

Now what can I do?

By the way; what is the best way to make vinegroon (what type vinegar to use) and what is the correct ratio for the Baking soda/water rince after dipping the project in the vinagroon mixture?

Thanks,

Greg

[NoahL]

I have been interested in Vinagroon as a way to blacken some of my projects. I made a batch of Vinegroon about six months ago and used it once and had pretty good results with it. Now after six months, it did not seem to work as well. My stamped/tooled belt came out a greyish brown/tan color.

Now what can I do?

By the way; what is the best way to make vinegroon (what type vinegar to use) and what is the correct ratio for the Baking soda/water rince after dipping the project in the vinagroon mixture?

Thanks,

Greg

It could be your leather--I have had the same batch of vinegaroon come out like you describe on some pieces of leather and pitch black on others. Try soaking the piece in strong coffee or tea to add tannins to the leather and try the vinegaroon again. As far as the best way to make it goes--I use white vinegar, but I don't know that it really matters, and from what I've read up on and tried there really doesn't seem to be any reason to add baking soda to the rinse except to reduce the smell, since leather is more acidic than baking so is naturally so water is plenty neutralizing.

[Rayban]

Is it just me, or are v-roon projects a little more labor intensive to burnish?

I find it so.....much more work then brown/tan dyes. Black has always given me problems, even Feibings USMC black...the edges want to stay more fuzzy.......takes more work to get them slick, even after the same amount of sanding I do on browns.

[NoahL]

Is it just me, or are v-roon projects a little more labor intensive to burnish?

I find it so.....much more work then brown/tan dyes. Black has always given me problems, even Feibings USMC black...the edges want to stay more fuzzy.......takes more work to get them slick, even after the same amount of sanding I do on browns.

I've noticed the same thing with vinegaroon, so I burnish before I dunk the piece I'm working on and that makes it much easier to touch up the burnished edge afterward. Can't tell you about the USMC Black, though--I use the Pro Oil Dye for black when I'm not using vinegaroon, and I didn't notice any trouble burnishing with it.

[ChuckBurrows]

Again........

Vinegar lack aka vinegaroon

The original recipe:

VINEGAR BLACK

For giving color to the grain of leather there is no blacking that will at all compare with the well known vinegar black. This may be made in various ways. The simplest, and, without doubt, the best, is to procure shavings from an iron turner (note: some folks get the turnings from brake drums) and cover them with pure cider vinegar; heat up and set aside for a week or two, then heat again and set in a cool place for two weeks; pour off the vinegar, allow it to stand for a few days, and draw off and cork up in bottles. This will keep for a long time, and, while producing a deep black on leather, will not stain the hands.

How I do it most times:

I use de-oiled 4/0 steel wool: dip in acetone, squeeze out the extra and hang to dry - then tear or cut into small pieces. Add one pads worth of the de-oiled steel wool to one quart of white or cider vinegar - I use those plastic coffee "cans" and punch a single small hole in the lid to let of any gas buildup. Let it set in the hot sun which will speed the reaction. I let it set for about two weeks until there is only a light vinegar odor left and/or the bulk of the steel wool has been dissolved. I also keep a new batch "cooking" all the time so I have a constant supply.

For the deepest black, apply a bath of strong black tea first (this increase the tannins) and let it soak in good, then apply a generous amount of the vinegar black. Let set for about a half hour and then rinse with a mix of baking soda and warm water, about a 1/8 cup soda to a half gallon of water, apply let set for a few minutes and then rinse off. While still damp apply a light coat or two of your favorite saddle oil. Once dry top coat as normal

Experiment - I test a piece of each new side without oiling to see how well it takes the blacking, if need be I'll do a second black tea mix to darken, then apply the oil which also helps darken.

Instead of steel wool you can use chopped up bailing or fence wire - the smaller the better since it will dissolve in the vinegar bath faster.

from what I've read up on and tried there really doesn't seem to be any reason to add baking soda to the rinse except to reduce the smell, since leather is more acidic than baking so is naturally so water is plenty neutralizing.

With respect Noah I've been using it for over 40 years and the baking soda can and will make a difference. I do not claim to be an "expert", but those who have done PH testing or those who have made other scientific comments about the effect do not have near the experience with it that I do and in my experience overall the BS bath (light BS mix as noted above and done quickly) sets the color and darkens it most times better then the vinegar black alone - my use has has to do with that factor rather than with neutralizing.

As for neutralizing - I've stated before that it is a misuse of the term, but the bottom line is in 9 out of 10 cases it helps and that is based on many years of personal use and experimentation......

When your mix gets old two things help:

1) Dependent on the leather add some tannins - see above

2) Give the mix a kick - adda bit more iron and a bit more vinegar

As to type of vinegar I prefer apple cider but white or even wine works since it's the acetic acid that does the job no the vinegar per se...

[Rayban]

So there's no need to let the steel wool go rusty before it goes into the vinegar?

[ChuckBurrows]

So there's no need to let the steel wool go rusty before it goes into the vinegar?

Nope in fact for making vinegar BLACK it can be counterproductive........

The "mix-up" IMO between unrusty and rusty is due to the fact that the same basic mix can be and is used as a woodstain and for that many prefer using rusty iron/steel since on some wood (e.g. maple) it will give a redder shade and somewhere along the line leather crafters seeking info on the mix have come across recipes offered by woodworkers thus the rusty vs unrusty. For leather blacking plain unrusted iron or mild steel is best.

[NoahL]

With respect Noah I've been using it for over 40 years and the baking soda can and will make a difference. I do not claim to be an "expert", but those who have done PH testing or those who have made other scientific comments about the effect do not have near the experience with it that I do and in my experience overall the BS bath (light BS mix as noted above and done quickly) sets the color and darkens it most times better then the vinegar black alone - my use has has to do with that factor rather than with neutralizing.

As for neutralizing - I've stated before that it is a misuse of the term, but the bottom line is in 9 out of 10 cases it helps and that is based on many years of personal use and experimentation......

Makes sense--I was just stating what I've read on it. I still do the BS bath, but I haven't seen any difference aside from the smell, myself--maybe I just don't pay enough attention, though

[Bronson]

Do you blacken the leather before or after molding? I tried one that I blackened before molding and everywhere the leather bent or stretched turned a grayish blue. This is also the only holster I've made that has had the acrylic top-coat start to peel off.

Bronson

[Rayban]

Do you blacken the leather before or after molding? I tried one that I blackened before molding and everywhere the leather bent or stretched turned a grayish blue. This is also the only holster I've made that has had the acrylic top-coat start to peel off.

Bronson

For me, to v-roon after molding works much better.

[RobDude30]

I've got a batch of vinegaroon that has been cooking for a couple of weeks and should be about ready. I've got a couple of questions for you guys that have been successfully working with it if I may.

It looks like 'rooning after molding is the general consensus. Does the 'rooning process change the color of natural thread? Should I sew before or after I apply the vinegaroon?

For the 'rooning process, how do you apply it? Dip the item, dauber it on, brush it on, etc? Could the vinegaroon be kept in a spray bottle and sprayed on the item?

Thanks!

Rob

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Hmmm, thought this was going to be a discussion about the other vinegaroon

http://insects.tamu.edu/fieldguide/cimg365.html

[ChuckBurrows]

It looks like 'rooning after molding is the general consensus. Does the 'rooning process change the color of natural thread? Should I sew before or after I apply the vinegaroon?

For the 'rooning process, how do you apply it? Dip the item, dauber it on, brush it on, etc? Could the vinegaroon be kept in a spray bottle and sprayed on the item?

Thanks!

Rob

1) Does the 'rooning process change the color of natural thread? No

2) Should I sew before or after I apply the vinegaroon? either way - your choice

3) For the 'rooning process, how do you apply it? Dip the item, dauber it on, brush it on, etc? Could the vinegaroon be kept in a spray bottle and sprayed on the item? all of the above - which ever way works best for you and the item you are working on. I prefer dIp dying since it is simply the easiest for me, but I also brush it on for larger pieces - a spray bottle should work fine, but you would need to filter it good to prevent any clogging

As Emeral would say - "this ain't rocket science"

[RobDude30]

1) Does the 'rooning process change the color of natural thread? No

2) Should I sew before or after I apply the vinegaroon? either way - your choice

3) For the 'rooning process, how do you apply it? Dip the item, dauber it on, brush it on, etc? Could the vinegaroon be kept in a spray bottle and sprayed on the item? all of the above - which ever way works best for you and the item you are working on. I prefer dIp dying since it is simply the easiest for me, but I also brush it on for larger pieces - a spray bottle should work fine, but you would need to filter it good to prevent any clogging

As Emeral would say - "this ain't rocket science"

Thanks Chuck. Planning to try it out tonight on a belt.

Edited August 11, 2010 by RobDude30

[ChuckBurrows]

You're welcome......

[RobDude30]

You guys weren't lying. I finally got around to vinegarooning some scraps to test my mixture and all I can say is WOW! That is the smoothest and blackest black I have ever been able to get on any of the leather I've played around with.

I followed Chuck's recipe pretty much. I added 2 pieces of fine steel wool to 64 ounces of apple cider vinegar. Let it cook in the sun for about 2 weeks until all the steel wool was dissolved, and filtered it through a coffee filter into plastic bottles. I also made some strong tea and put it in another bottle. I applied the tea to the leather scrap, let it soak in for a few minutes, applied the vinegaroon with a dauber and let it soak in for a few minutes, then rinsed with baking soda and then clear water. Worked like a charm! Thanks again Chuck!

[Skald]

A stupid question here: If I use vinegroon to dye leather, should I make the carving/tooling before or after the dye process? I have some doubts the tooling will remain "intact" after sinking into first the dye liquid, and then baking soda solution to neutralize the vinegroon.

[Vikefan]

A stupid question here: If I use vinegroon to dye leather, should I make the carving/tooling before or after the dye process? I have some doubts the tooling will remain "intact" after sinking into first the dye liquid, and then baking soda solution to neutralize the vinegroon.

Not a stupid question at all. I came across this recently (past week) and I think you should look it over. I have never done this type of tooling on a holster before, just did the vinegroon thing a couple times. Check this out and let me know what you think. From seeing this I would gather you could do all your tooling first. http://www.willghormley-maker.com/MakingHOGRig.html

Vikefan

[ChuckBurrows]

I do all my tooling first then use the vinegar black - you can also case the leather with the vinegar black and then do your tooling - eiher way works fine..........e

Edited December 4, 2010 by ChuckBurrows

[Skald]

Thank you folks. I am actually about to set a 'groon (noticed that people seem to spell it in a lot of different ways!) batch today and try out both ways, of course just on small scrap bits for a starter.

Because my name is "overkill", I think about adding some strong coffee and strong tea to the batch, I heard that more tannins make the 'groon work more effectively. Of course there are tannins in the leather itself, but a little help might be good, besides it should add some color too. And if I am happy, it ends up having a little aroma of tea and coffe, and and not only vinegar. LOL

[katsass]

Thank you folks. I am actually about to set a 'groon (noticed that people seem to spell it in a lot of different ways!) batch today and try out both ways, of course just on small scrap bits for a starter.

Because my name is "overkill", I think about adding some strong coffee and strong tea to the batch, I heard that more tannins make the 'groon work more effectively. Of course there are tannins in the leather itself, but a little help might be good, besides it should add some color too. And if I am happy, it ends up having a little aroma of tea and coffe, and and not only vinegar. LOL

Skald: I wouldn't add the coffee or tea to the batch of 'roon'. Just brew it up separately and dunk the item in the that which you don't drink, let the item dry just a bit.......so it ain't dripping , then into the 'roon'. You are adding the tannins to the leather....not to the 'roon'. That's how I do mine. Here's the last one I did just that way......the streaks seen are actually 'stretch marks' not seen in the leather 'till it came out of the vinegar black.......not variations in the color. Mike

Edited December 4, 2010 by katsass

[Skald]

Skald: I wouldn't add the coffee or tea to the batch of 'roon'. Just brew it up separately and dunk the item in the that which you don't drink, let the item dry just a bit.......so it ain't dripping , then into the 'roon'. You are adding the tannins to the leather....not to the 'roon'. That's how I do mine. Here's the last one I did just that way......the streaks seen are actually 'stretch marks' not seen in the leather 'till it came out of the vinegar black.......not variations in the color. Mike

Thanks for the input. I made a batch today, and could not stay clear of it, and tried dipping a small piece of scrap leather in it already after about an hour. I let it soak for like slightly less than 60 seconds, and it was well on it's way to go black already. It was like "coffee brown" on the upper part, a little "blue'ish" in the middle, and shady black at the bottom. I didn't add any coffee or tea, at least not yet. Seems that particular leather has enough of tannin already. I'll probably use the 'groon on monday, and I expect it to have even more power by then.