Effort Vs. Reward

[JohnBarton]

Ok, so I haven't been here for a while to bug you with more of my "issues" that are probably better worked out with a head doctor.

The latest one is a real sense of depression (jealously?) over the prices others get for work that is not as hard to do or in my opinion not commensurate with the market in general for other leather goods.

So I know something is only worth what someone else will pay for it, yada yada.

I know that certain brands and reputations can command higher prices.

I am not a novice in this field since I am in the game for 20 years.

Still I do get depressed when I see a Gucci bag for $1500 and I know that more effort goes into my stuff than that and I feel guilty asking $500.

I get depressed when a competitor gets $3500 for a case that isn't even half as good but it looks good.

But as always I have a real point and a real question.

Question 1. - In leather working which things are hardest to make and bring the least reward (financially)?

Question 2. - you are a saddle maker who gets $3500 for a fully tooled trophy saddle and you do a little work for someone else and tool two small parts for their bags, assume that you get about $500 for this work on the small pieces. They then are able to sell their bags based on your tooling for $3500 each (kudos to them for being able to get that price). Would you feel a little depressed that you only get $3500 for the whole saddle while they get the same amount for building something which takes a lot less effort and relies on your tooling for the wow effect?

Thoughts?

[funnygirl62221]

I looked at your gallery and your cases are absolutely beautiful! I dont know what to tell u about pricing. I am new to the leatherwork biz and am doing my first art festival next month. Upon seeing the quality of your work my first reaction is...don't sell yourself short. Anyone with half a brain can see the amazing craftsmanship in those cases.

[abn]

John, if you enjoy what you're doing and can make enough money to survive, you're already ahead of lots of folks. Don't worry about what the other "Joe" is doing, or how much he's making. There will always be folks making more (and less) than you are. Focus on the satisfaction you get out of your craftmanship and design.

[BAD HIDE]

Make sure you're asking price covers what you think your worth, then ask for a little more. I underprice myself all the time, and every time I go look at my competition's items, I know they're asking more for less work. Which eventually leads me to raise prices a bit. That taken into consideration, you can't look over your shoulder all the time. Even laymen can tell vastly higher quality work when they hold it in their hands. Whatever you're doing is working, so keep doing it and get better. I don't think anyone here is scheming to retire on a private island. Yeah working is hard, but if you do what you love, it's really not work. And if you can pay the bills on top of that, that's all that really matters. I'd rather underprice my stuff and actually sell it, than high prices without selling anything.

[Vinkimus]

I'm a small gamer compaired to you John but I know the feeling you're talking about.It's really depressing knowing that someone is willing to pay a freekin lot of money for a lame bag cause of a brand on it and is not willing to pay half the price for a real handmade project,that is unique and life lasting, out of the hands of a craftsman.And about competitors that get a better price for a product that is more or less worse one can only wonder "how on earth that other guy convinces people to pay him that much when I feel guilty mentioning my prices?"

I'm a bookbinder.I face the exact same thing you're talking about everyday....The market here is full of bookbinders that do lousy job and get fair prices and bookbinders that do mediocre job and get huge prices for their work.Their books will not last over a decade of good use,they even look worse, yet they somehow make their prices seem reasonable.I would never lower my quality but not having to see the long face when I mention the cost would improve my mood a lot.Why is it so hard to understand that a book that has been taken apart,repaired,resewn,leathercovered,handdyed and decorated and will outlast you and probably your children has to cost more than a couple of pizzas and some beer?I could go like this all day long,point is it's the same problem everywhere.

Anyway,all the people I ever met and do quality work,whatever their field may be,underprice their work.They all have competitors that achieve better prices for worse products(good for them of course if they can do so).They all get "mugged" by resellers that take benefit out of their work and most of them have given up on this kind of deals.

The most annoying thing about this whole case is that there is no answer!Just as mentioned above the only relief one can get is by thinking "I know what I make is good and that I pour my heart and sweat into it".I feel the same way as you do,only in a very very very very smaller scale probably!

Oh,and funny thing,I went to a head doctor for some personal issues and in time he became the most understanding and loyal customer!What are the odds of that?!?

[Ferg]

Ok, so I haven't been here for a while to bug you with more of my "issues" that are probably better worked out with a head doctor.

The latest one is a real sense of depression (jealously?) over the prices others get for work that is not as hard to do or in my opinion not commensurate with the market in general for other leather goods.

So I know something is only worth what someone else will pay for it, yada yada.

I know that certain brands and reputations can command higher prices.

I am not a novice in this field since I am in the game for 20 years.

Still I do get depressed when I see a Gucci bag for $1500 and I know that more effort goes into my stuff than that and I feel guilty asking $500.

I get depressed when a competitor gets $3500 for a case that isn't even half as good but it looks good.

But as always I have a real point and a real question.

Question 1. - In leather working which things are hardest to make and bring the least reward (financially)?

Question 2. - you are a saddle maker who gets $3500 for a fully tooled trophy saddle and you do a little work for someone else and tool two small parts for their bags, assume that you get about $500 for this work on the small pieces. They then are able to sell their bags based on your tooling for $3500 each (kudos to them for being able to get that price). Would you feel a little depressed that you only get $3500 for the whole saddle while they get the same amount for building something which takes a lot less effort and relies on your tooling for the wow effect?

Thoughts?

Hi John,

My wife and I have had a business for 34 years making wooden items for children. We do no retail, everything is wholesale. In these years we have been copied from on the other side down to the exact color of paint.

We quit making anything they can copy. We have become the largest manufacturer of wooden Name Puzzles in the world. We work many long hours when other folks are having fun or going to ball games. We stay competitive

because we have the best SERVICE, notice, I shouted that word. Always remember that word and never let your business get so you do not service your customers.

BTW: We make any child's name through nine letters, sell it for an average $6.20. The companies we do business with resell them for up to $30.00 each plus shipping and handling. BUT we sell between 15,000 and 20,000 any Christmas Season.

May not make you feel better but think about what we get for our product!!

ferg

[JohnBarton]

Thanks Everyone!!!!

After a lot of reflection I have come to the conclusion that "value" is also very very subjective.  Just like beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all that.  I prize things like durability and function over beauty and fashion.  Other people don't see it that way.  They want to look good and will take less in performance to get the ego-boost of being "cool".  Surprisingly it's taken me a long to time to figure this out.  It's not any wonder then why "fashion brands" are so big and why they can thrive even in the face of massive copying and counterfeiting.

It does pain me greatly to see Ron Ross do the tooling for a case panel and a lid - two easy parts and probably a tenth of the tooling that's on a saddle, and he probably gets a couple hundred for his part and then the guy who builds the case gets $3600 for it.  

But why does it pain me?  Is it because I am overly concerned for Ron Ross (someone I have never even met)?  Or am I jealous of Jack's ability to ask for and get $3600 for a case like this?

Partially a little of both I'd say but mostly it's because I am imposing MY sense of value and what I would pay for something onto Jack's work.  I wouldn't pay $3600 for this product if I were a millionaire because I don't buy for fashion.  But who am I to say that other people shouldn't do so?  Why should I care if they want to spend $3600 on a cue case?

I mean at the end of the day if my "brand" ever becomes fashionable then those same customers will be my customers.  I guess if I KNOW that I am delivering more case for the money then I am in the stronger position long term.  And while it hurts inside to see someone drop twice as much on a case that I feel is only half as good I have to be content with the idea that the buyer doesn't feel that way.  To them the $3600 case represents more than just how well it's built or how well it really protects the cues.  It's owning something that there is only one of and will ever be only one of.  It's a part of someone else's life and legacy.  And it's vanity and showing off but isn't that what everything decorative is anyway.  

Getting down to it even if my case is $1700 and has way more tooling and clever and creative elements it's really not a necessary thing to have is it?  A $10 tube with a little padding works just as well to transport the cue from place to place.  

So instead of wasting time obsessing over comparing the ingredients to the price I need to just stop the insane thinking about it.  Yesterday we were in a "high end" beauty shop and they had some "sea salt" for about $50 a bottle.  My wife commented that the GROCERY store down the street sells the same brand in the same bottle for $35 a bottle but her friends will not buy it at the grocery store because they believe it's inferior to the place which charges $50 a bottle.  (nevermind that I think charging $35 or $50 for salt is a ripoff either way).  

So here is the kicker in all this which has made me come to this point.

Looking at this from an economist's point of view it does not matter where the money is spent as long as it's the holder of the money who gets to decide what to do with it.  So, give me $1500 for a cue case and I will spend that $1500 making more cue cases and buying essentials for my life.  I will spread it around as I need and want to.  Give someone else $3000 for a case and they will do the same.  It doesn't matter if the $3000 case is a worse "value" for the consumer.  That choice and decision is on the consumer AS LONG AS the consumer has FREE WILL to choose to buy what he or she wants to buy.

I have come to the conclusion that MONEY is infinite.  Yes our particular access to it is finite at any given time but there is no barrier preventing us from earning more of it.  And so the proper way to think is that the person who is willing to spend $3600 on a cue case is probably just as willing and able to buy some $1500 cases from me.  It's not an either or situation.  I have long held a belief in an abundance economy which says that their is enough business for everyone.  Now obviously that cannot completely true as nature shows us when the population of animals becomes too great for a given food source.  But by and large for small businesses at least I think it's true that there are enough customers for everyone, especially since those customers tend to overlap and buy from different sources.

So with all that in mind I come back to the original question of effort vs. reward.

The jealousy part of this comes in when I see another case maker delivering a product that is way easier to make and getting paid much better than me.  Whose fault is that?  It's mine.  There is nothing preventing me from asking for more money if that's what I want.  But then maybe I don't feel that my work is "worth" that much.  However I am putting forth a lot more effort and getting less (financial) reward.

At the end of the day I have to look inward and ask myself these questions, am I happy with what I am doing?  Am I confident in the product I am delivering?  Am I making what I want to make with no guilty feelings?  Is my customer happy with the product they get from me?

If I can answer yes to all of those questions then the reward, in both pride and money, is well worth the effort.

 

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

The subject of pricing was recently brought up on the blacksmithing forum. Certain aspects are easy to price; materials, man hours, etc. It was the perceived value that is the tough one. As a leatherworker you know what goes into making a leather item, but a lot-if not most people don't. The same as with forging, pottery, etc. Then there is the Wal-Mart factor. Why should I buy X for $$$$ when I can get a SIMILAR item for $ at Wal-Mart? They only look similar, the quality is far different. On the opposit end you have people that have more money than brains, and the buy for status. I was at an art village recently where I saw a patio bench with a $1,200 price, and a sold tag. I looked at it closely, and thought to myself " I would of had a hard time asking $300 for that, and I would have done a better job." It was just basic tubing bent, and MIG welded together with a granite slab. The welds were not even dressed.

One way to price is when you are talking with a customer, don't give just one price. Keep adding onto it IE; basic case is $$$$, tooling is $, coloring is $, type of hardware is $, etc until you get a reaction from the customer-then stop. What you did was find out what their "pain level" was. For some it will be a lot less, for others it will be even higher. Either way you just found out what your case was worth to them.

As mentioned before, your number one priority should be customer service. Make sure that you sell that as much as the case itself.

Maybe you need to work on your marketing some. Show the players the quality that goes into your cases compared to the competition. The problem I would have, if I was in the market for a case, would be the made in China part. I do my best to buy U.S.A. mfg. goods, and avoid Chinese products. That, and I would look at it as something I can make myself, and get the satisfaction of making it too.

I looked through your site, and you do beautiful work. I never would have guessed that a cue case would have brought that kind of money. I wish you all the luck in your endeavors.

[JohnBarton]

The subject of pricing was recently brought up on the blacksmithing forum. Certain aspects are easy to price; materials, man hours, etc. It was the perceived value that is the tough one. As a leatherworker you know what goes into making a leather item, but a lot-if not most people don't.  The same as with forging, pottery, etc. Then there is the Wal-Mart factor. Why should I buy X for $$  when I can get a SIMILAR item for $ at Wal-Mart?  They only look similar, the quality is far different.  On the opposit end you have people that have more money than brains, and the buy for status.  I was at an art village recently where I saw a patio bench with a $1,200 price, and a sold tag. I looked at it closely, and thought to myself " I would of had a hard time asking $300 for that, and I would have done a better job." It was just basic tubing bent, and MIG welded together with a granite slab.  The welds were not even dressed.

One way to price is when you are talking with a customer, don't give just one price. Keep adding onto it IE; basic case is $$, tooling is $, coloring is $, type of hardware is $, etc until you get a reaction from the customer-then stop. What you did was find out what their "pain level" was. For some it will be a lot less, for others it will be even higher.  Either way you just found out what your case was worth to them.

As mentioned before, your number one priority should be customer service. Make sure that you sell that as much as the case itself.

Maybe you need to work on your marketing some. Show the players the quality that goes into your cases compared to the competition. The problem I would have, if I was in the market for a case, would be the made in China part. I do my best to buy U.S.A. mfg. goods, and avoid Chinese products.  That, and I would look at it as something I can make myself, and get the satisfaction of making it too.

I looked through your site, and you do beautiful work. I never would have guessed that a cue case would have brought that kind of money.  I wish you all the luck in your endeavors.

It's not pricing that I have a problem with.  I don't feel in the least that I am leaving money on the table when I get far less than my competitors do.  I feel I am leaving money in my customer's pockets.  Believe me I "market" the quality differences and performance (protection) differences plenty.  I don't think that there are very many folks who are pool players that know my work who don't know where I stand on that aspect.

I think in some ways that I actually overmarket a bit in that direction.  I am fond of saying that it's not a beauty contest and that I build ueber-protective cases and then wrap pretty around them.

I agree on the customer service part.  I definitely have to work on that too.  But that's not really the issue I was getting at here.

The issue here was how it makes you feel to see your competition charging and getting super high prices for their work when it's not half as good as yours.  And that's strictly speaking from a 1:1 apples to apples comparison and leaving out things like brand, prestige, reputation, etc....

I personally would feel guilty charging someone $3500 for a case unless there was a damn good reason.  To me a damn good reason would be I send the leather to some really great and famous tooler and he or she charges me $3000 and my part of it being building the case is something I would charge $500 for with no tooling.  Then the price of the case would be $3500.  I just have this thing I have always done where I calculate the costs and slap on the percentage that I want to earn and that's the price.  I do often give away extra work that I should charge for but I think that this is ok as I often get work from others that they should charge for.

Don't get me wrong we aren't hurting for business in the least.  My order book is full and the top collectors in this business already know about us and have cases on order, a lot of them anyway.  I have also successful erased most of the "China" stigma from our products.  The funny thing about that though is one of my competitors who is making his cases as "made in USA" imports his interiors ready made from China for $17 each.  He does not mention that anywhere on his site or at his booths.

But he has the gall to implore people to "buy American".  THAT is a whole other topic that I will bring up one of these days and I know now that it will cause a heated discussion among us.  :-)  But if I can't discuss it with my peers then who else can I talk to about it. 

Nah, I am all good.  I am over the jealousy/depression I had whenvever I see an overpriced leather bag, be it a Prada or some other brand of cue case competing with me.  I have come to look at the overall economics and realized that it's impossible for everything to be priced "fairly" according to it's "quality".  There are way too many factors involved and it's all those factors that drive all the commerce in the world.

[JohnBarton]

PS.

Regarding what goes into making things.  It's true that most people don't know what goes into making things and equally true that most people don't much care to know either.  They don't care if my shop of employees turned out the case in three hours or thirty hours.  They don't care if one man made it all by himself or he imported all the components pre-made and just did light assembly.  I say MOST people don't care.  A few do but most don't.

Some people THINK that they know what goes into making things and they are often wrong.  I have had self-styled experts tell me how my cases are built.  Seriously I had one guy telling me that my cases are cheap (as in the cheap in a bad way) because they are built in such and such manner and that such and such way is easy to do and easy to break.  I asked him if he ever took one of my cases apart and he said no.  I asked him to bet what he wanted that he was right and he wouldn't bet 10cts against a $1000.  Those type of people are actually worse than the apathetic ones when it comes to showing appreciation for the effort.

Most people don't care to know.  They are just interested in what stands before them and their feeling at that moment.  I know for a fact that I could put $2000 on a $1000 case and sell it when the right person comes along.  Conversely I could put $500 on a $1000 case and sit on it all day if no one comes along who wants to spend $500 on a cue case.

I tend to think that the more the average person knows about the nuts and bolts of making something the less value it has in their eyes.  Now some people are aficionados and they delight in learning about the craft and explaining that the old man went up to mountain to carefully hunt the right goat to make that bag out of.  And that while his family prepared the goat meat he tanned the hide and selected the best parts of the leather and made thread and and and.....those people are GREAT in my eyes because they do appreciate the craft and what goes into it.  But for most people they don't care.

I mean think about it for a moment, do most of us sit back and consider what goes into the things we buy?  I'd say that we tend to do it more than average but I bet for anything other than crafty type stuff we don't really think about it too much.  I do a lot but in more an abstract way.  I look at a car and I think of how much human effort went into producing that car from the people who conceived it to the people who built it.  I think of all the molds and how much effort it takes to make a thousand parts fit and work together.  

So to me it's always a dicey proposition to market the "effort".  While I like the idea of educating my audience as to what we do I don't want to slip into the guilt trip method of selling.  Which by the way is something I consider the whole "buy American" concept to be.  (can of worms officially opened)

Donning flame retardant leather suit now. :-)

[abn]

John, if you're truly concerned about "those other guys" getting more for their work, then I think you may have to put more priority on your product's image -- i.e., it's perceived value. Keep in mind that perceived value can have very little correlation to real value. Take a BMW, for example. A better car than a Honda? Maybe. But is it worth twice or three times as much? Probably not. Both will get you down the road in relative comfort and safety. But there's a certain notion of style imparted to driving a BMW.

When you're prepared to put image over practicality, and sacrifice some quality for appearance, then you'll be ready to charge more for your work. Think like an artist, instead of a craftsman -- experiment, take chances, pay more attention to what catches the eye... Forget about functionality for a moment. You've already got those skills down pat.

If I were you, I'd build a $3,500 case. You've already stated that with your current methods, your work isn't worth that much (or you'd feel uncomfortable charging it). Well, what would you have to do to really make something worth $3,500? Think outside of the box. Let your imagination run wild. And then build something that you'll put a $3,500 price tag on. This experiment might take you to a whole new level.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

And think what may happen if somebody buys that case for $3,500.

In reality what would you stand to lose? Make a case that is similar to the other guys in the amount of embellishment, and see if someone bites. For a lot of folks $$$$$=quality. You don't have to scrimp on quality, just up the price, and give it an expensive sounding name. I wouldn't call it the U.S. National debt, but something expensive/valuable non the less. The Rockefeller, Maximilian, Diamond grade, Platinum edition, The "I'm gonna be gone someday, and you are gonna wish you bought one when they were $3,500, and not the $7,000 their gonna get on EBay " edition , etc...

I realize it is not all about money. But ones pride can be hurt when you know in your heart that you make a better item than someone else, yet they sell their's for more, or have better recognition.

[JohnBarton]

John, if you're truly concerned about "those other guys" getting more for their work, then I think you may have to put more priority on your product's image -- i.e., it's perceived value. Keep in mind that perceived value can have very little correlation to real value. Take a BMW, for example. A better car than a Honda? Maybe. But is it worth twice or three times as much? Probably not. Both will get you down the road in relative comfort and safety. But there's a certain notion of style imparted to driving a BMW.

When you're prepared to put image over practicality, and sacrifice some quality for appearance, then you'll be ready to charge more for your work. Think like an artist, instead of a craftsman -- experiment, take chances, pay more attention to what catches the eye... Forget about functionality for a moment. You've already got those skills down pat.

If I were you, I'd build a $3,500 case. You've already stated that with your current methods, your work isn't worth that much (or you'd feel uncomfortable charging it). Well, what would you have to do to really make something worth $3,500? Think outside of the box. Let your imagination run wild. And then build something that you'll put a $3,500 price tag on. This experiment might take you to a whole new level.

I am not concerned about it.  I was obsessed by it with the attitude of "why can't they SEE the deficiencies????"  Why God Why???  :-)  

But like I said I am way over it.  I'd rather charge what I feel good about charging and make the wage I want to make for the work I am delivering.  That way NO ONE feels shafted at any time.  I am CERTAIN that at some point someone got one of those "overpriced" cases and wasn't too happy with it but kept quiet for various reasons.  In fact I have the emails to prove that it has happened a few times.

You make the same point that I did though.  If I build a case with a $3500 price tag then it will be obvious WHY it's worth $3500.  I mean clearly things like using real gator, elephant, zebra etc will drive up the price, I can inlay with exotic woods, I can get really detailed and crazy with the tooling, I could use 3oz leather and layer on the filigree to make shadowbox art in leather, etc.....  And IF I did things like that then I would charge accordingly.

I will always charge whatever I feel is a fair price.  And I guess other people do the same.  If the buyer feels like the price is good then it's all good.   I refuse to be upset any more over this sort of comparison because in truth it never ends.  If I charge $5000 for a case then someday someone will come along and make and sell a case for $6000.

it's like Kate said, better to have a bigger heap.  I'd rather have a market where there are more people willing to spend $3500 on a case than less.  Why?  Because that gives me and everyone else a much broader spectrum to work from.  Imagine if the ceiling on leather cue cases was $500.  There would be a lot less choice if people were only willing to spend $500 max on a cue case.  The most I ever thought about charging was $2500 and so having a certain number of buyers willing to give me another $1000 on top of it does in fact give my imagination room to play.

Ok getting back to Earth I have to go back to work and make some more $500 cases............

[JohnBarton]

And think what may happen if somebody buys that case for $3,500.

  In reality what would you stand to lose?  Make a case that is similar to the other guys in the amount of embellishment, and see if someone bites. For a lot of folks $$$=quality.  You don't have to scrimp on quality, just up the price, and give it an expensive sounding name. I wouldn't call it the U.S. National debt, but something expensive/valuable non the less. The Rockefeller, Maximilian, Diamond grade, Platinum edition,  The "I'm gonna be gone someday, and you are gonna wish you bought one when they were $3,500, and not the $7,000 their gonna get on EBay "  edition , etc...

I realize it is not all about money. But ones pride can be hurt when you know in your heart that you make a better item than someone else, yet they sell their's for more, or have better recognition.

I am already past that point.  I can't make a case similar to the embellishment that the other guy puts out there and charge more than $1000 for it.  Not and look someone in the eye afterward.  

Now having said that I want to reiterate that I DON'T KNOW what the other guy is paying to have the tooling done.  Honestly for all I know he is getting charged $1500 a case just for the tooling, I don't know.   

For example it's on my list to have Bobocat do the tooling on one of our cases.  I am going to send him the pattern and when he is done he will send me the bill.  Now, knowing his work and what he charges I may have to go to the bank for a small loan to pay off that invoice.  But I am sure that the resulting art will be worth every penny AND I will charge what he charged me plus what I want to earn for my effort and risk.  So for all I know that may end up being my first $3000 case.  

It's funny but my job title with Sterling (my day job) is "The Minister of Propaganda".  Really, that's what's on my business card.  And I am probably one of the most straight up tell-it-like-is damn-the-consequences type people around.  I try not to "spin" things too much and a lot of times end up revealing more of the inner workings of how things are done than I should.

So I am not the guy who can market through embellishment.  I have to have a pretty solid foundation that anyone can stand on and test.  I am prone to hyperbole, the most protective, easiest to use, durablest ;-)  most durable, etc...but like I said I feel that I can compete against anyone else in a case teardown and come out on top.  They say it's not bragging if you can do it.  So in that sense I feel pretty confident in our product and I don't need to make it more than it is to sell it.  If I did that then I'd feel pretty icky inside.

And believe me, I know what icky feels like when you sell something that isn't all that great but you convinced the buy that it is.  My obsession with quality comes from having sold substandard stuff and pretty much lying about the specs as well as having been on the the other side as a buyer too many times and believing the salesman only to find out I got taken for a ride.

I have what I like to call the living room inspection approach.

Back when I was younger whenever I'd get a new cue I would sit down in my living room and inspect it.  I would fondle it and carress it and get to know it intimately.  And if anything was out of place on that cue then I would know it.  Not that I would mention it to anyone but I would know about it.  Then I'd prepare a bunch of excuses in case someone noticed the defect, I'd make excuses for the maker, basically anything to not make me look stupid for having paid for a cue with a defect.

So my attitude now is that I never want one of my customers to be sitting in their living room and doing the same thing with one of my cases and having that same feeling.  I want them never to have regrets about buying one of my cases.  And one way to do that is to simply price them fairly as to what I can feel good about.

No doubt about it it does still hurt when someone get's x-amount more for less than what I build.  But that's life and there is a reason that they are where they are.  For me I will set my goals at getting to where I want to be without regard to where they are and what they are doing.

Unless of course they cross me and then the gloves are off (or on actually as it's easier to dig in and fight with gloves on).

And interjecting another random rambling thought - has anyone here ever really shown any appreciation for the leather work glove?   Can you imagine the amount of things we humans have been able to accomplish while wearing good worn in leather work gloves.  I swear when I put on mine I feel like I could lift or hang onto anything........

All right done.  Distraction over.

Later.

[alb]

The kind of distraction that makes a difference for other people. I like hearing you talk. (or type).

Ann