Singer 269W9 And Metro Special Shoe Repair Machine

[GunNut]

I am looking for a sewing machine to use in making holsters. I used a Tippmann Boss and liked it. I have a chance to trade a Pistol I own for a Singer 269w9 machine. I googled it and it is a Patcher. Can a patcher be made into a simple stitching machine? The company also has a "Metro Special" shoe repair machine with what appears to be a hand wheel on the front as well as a belt drive system. It appears to have a reducer as it has several pulleys before it gets to the motor. I know it is a long arm shoe patcher type head that can go 360 degrees. Would this be a better option? They also have a bunch of three phase machines. A few Consews, Jukis and others. I assume a 3 phase just refers to the motor and that you could replace that with a 110 volt servo motor but I am not sure. The pistol is valued at $500 or so. I could buy a machine out right but I am having trouble finding one that will do two pieces of 8-9 oz leather in my $500 price range. I need help here guys. What is my best options. Any help is very much appreciated.

BTW The company I am dealing with used to make leather items for bows but no longer does. The staff doesn't know much about these machines so I am stuck with what I buy.

Edited August 20, 2010 by GunNut

[Wizcrafts]

I am looking for a sewing machine to use in making holsters. I used a Tippmann Boss and liked it. I have a chance to trade a Pistol I own for a Singer 269w9 machine. I googled it and it is a Patcher. Can a patcher be made into a simple stitching machine? The company also has a "Metro Special" shoe repair machine with what appears to be a hand wheel on the front as well as a belt drive system. It appears to have a reducer as it has several pulleys before it gets to the motor. I know it is a long arm shoe patcher type head that can go 360 degrees. Would this be a better option? They also have a bunch of three phase machines. A few Consews, Jukis and others. I assume a 3 phase just refers to the motor and that you could replace that with a 110 volt servo motor but I am not sure. The pistol is valued at $500 or so. I could buy a machine out right but I am having trouble finding one that will do two pieces of 8-9 oz leather in my $500 price range. I need help here guys. What is my best options. Any help is very much appreciated.

BTW The company I am dealing with used to make leather items for bows but no longer does. The staff doesn't know much about these machines so I am stuck with what I buy.

Um, a Singer 269 is a bartacker, not a patcher. A bartacker sews a tight zig-zag stitch about 1/8" high and 5/8" to 3/4" wide across velcro, or whatever you clamp under the elongated pressor foot. They are commonly used to affix Velcro to shoes, vests, jackets, etc. You cannot "sew" anything with a bartacker; only tack bars of tight zig-zags across the material. Each press of the foot control pedal causes a cam to rotate and creates the sideways/forward-backward motion for one complete cycle, then stops, with the needle up.

A shoe patcher (Singer 29k series) is suitable for sewing shoes, boots, zippers, patching holes, sewing on patches, etc. Most newer models can sew over 5/16" of leather, but are limited to #69 or #92 thread in the bobbin and #92 or #138 thread on top. The old 29-4 machines can only sew 1/4" under the foot.

There are two bobbin sizes on Singer and Adler patchers. The small bobbin is only 5/8" x 1/4", with a 1/4" OD post in the center. They hold a tiny amount of thread compared to most home sewing machine bobbins. The large bobbin machines have a bobbin that measures 3/4" x 5/16" - which holds as much as a Singer class 66 bobbin.

Patchers have long snouts, narrow on the left and wide on the right. They are either 12" or 18" length, from the left end to the inside of the body, on the right. Most are hand and foot operated, by a treadle pedal that pivots and spins a drive pulley. A 70" belt goes up to a pulley on the back of the machine to operate it. Some patchers have the hand wheel on the back, others have it on the front-right.

Short arm patchers with small bobbins are no good for holsters. They don't have enough lift. Long arm patchers can sew pancake holsters, using #138 thread, top and bottom. Since you don't use a lot of thread on a holster, the small bobbins are not a big problem. The pressor foot on all patchers has teeth on the bottom, which will mark top grain veg-tan leather. Patchers don't have mounting holes for edge guides, making it difficult to sew straight lines of stitches. Some lack the thumbscrew on the front of the sewing head, which is used to lock the revolving feed mechanism in place. Without locking it down, the pressor foot tends to wander.

Most patchers can use needles up to #23 and maybe #24 (long arm, big bobbin). A short arm model will be better limited to a #22 needle.

Motors.

3 phase motors run on 220 volts systems and have special 220 volt plugs. They are of limited, if any use in residential locations. Many 120 volt single phase industrial machines have a clutch motor installed. These are powerful motors, especially the 1/2 HP - 1725 RPM motors. Most come with a 3" or larger pulley, which is totally useless for sewing leather. For about $12 you can buy a 2" pulley (x 3/4" ID) to fit a clutch motor, slowing it down by up to 50% (needs a shorter v-belt). For about $125 you can buy a speed reducer pulley wheel that brings it down to maybe 2 or 3 stitches per second. That is a very controllable speed and will allow you to sew dense leather without excessively overheating the needle, melting the thread and burnishing the leather. A hot needle also tends to get stuck in the leather.

You should be able to find a decent, used-but-functional walking foot machine at a local upholstery shop in the $500-$600 range. A walking foot machine typically has 7/16" - to 1/2" maximum lift under the feet (and point of the raised needle) and can sew about 3/8" of leather, if you slow it down with a small (2") motor pulley, or speed reducer wheel, or servo motor.

My post at the top of this forum describes various types of leather sewing machines and drive systems. Take a look at the photos and adjust your plans accordingly. If you trade you $500 gun for a machine made to sew garments or patch holes in jackets and shoes, you will be very disappointed when you find it won't sew holsters as you thought it would.

For your info, if you intend to sew serious holsters, with fillers along the outside edge, forget the flatbed walking foot machines, unless you stumble across an Adler 204 model, or an equivalent Japanese model. I had one of those. It weighed over 200 pounds and could sew 3/4" of leather, with a #25 needle and #277 thread. Most holster makers use #277, or #346 bonded nylon or polyester, or else 5 or 6 cord linen thread - run through liquid wax, in a wax pot. The machines capable of handling this thread and properly sewing through 3/4 inch of dense veg-tan leather are made especially for leather work. Most are cylinder arm machines, with a special walking or jumping foot - needle feed mechanism and are geared way down, to a few stitches per second. They are sold under such brand names as Cowboy, Cobra, Juki 441, Adler 205, Ferdinand Bull, Luberto Classic, Artisan, Techsew 180, et al. We have member dealers who sell and service these machines. You can get them in arm lengths from 9" to 24" and prices starting at around $1700, going up to $3500.

I hope this helps.

[GunNut]

Thanks for the reply sir! I am not trying to be obtuse but let me see if I understand. The Tacker will not work at all. I got that part. The Shoe machine might work if it is geared correctly? Most of my Pancake holsters are in the 5-6 oz leather range. Two peices should be well under the 3/8 of an inch. In fact most of my work is well under that, pancake or otherwise. Would you be able to tell via pictures if it is geared correctly? Am I to understand then that a 3 phase will not work at all even with a new motor? Again thank you for your help. I am rereading your post about machines again now.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks for the reply sir! I am not trying to be obtuse but let me see if I understand. The Tacker will not work at all. I got that part. The Shoe machine might work if it is geared correctly? Most of my Pancake holsters are in the 5-6 oz leather range. Two peices should be well under the 3/8 of an inch. In fact most of my work is well under that, pancake or otherwise. Would you be able to tell via pictures if it is geared correctly? Am I to understand then that a 3 phase will not work at all even with a new motor? Again thank you for your help. I am rereading your post about machines again now.

Ya missed it by that - much! A shoe patcher, if it is motorized at all, is already geared way down. They are not built for speed. They are meant to sew a few stitches per second, for a short run, then stop. Most are treadle operated by foot power alone, giving you about 2 stitches per second maximum. A motorized patcher will have a pulley of maybe 3 inches on it. The pulley on the back of the machine is about 6" in diameter. You already get a 1:2 reduction. Put a 2" pulley on the motor and you get 1:3 speed. Given that a clutch motor can be feathered at slow speed, especially from a clunky machine like a patcher, it is easy to feather control them at one or two stitches per second. A servo motor makes it even easier to control any machine. They have speed limiter control knobs on the back of the motor. Can you say "1 stitch every three seconds?"

You are confused about the term 3 phase. It applies entirely to a 220 volt motor and its matching wiring harness. If you replace the 3 phase motor with a 2 phase, 110 volt model, with a new wiring harness and switch box, they will be compatible with residential electrical outlets. I recommend a servo motor with built in gear reduction. Bob Kovar sells them at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines.

Don't worry about the motor until you have a machine and table to attach it to.

I fear you are going to be tossing away some valuable goods and money. A shoe patcher is really only meant to sew shoe uppers. I'd hate to think about you building a nice custom molded holster and the client sees the tooth marks on top around the stitch line and refuses to buy it. You really should save up and buy a walking or jumping foot - needle feed machine, that was built and set-up to sew thick and dense leather. Even a used walking foot flatbed machine is better than a patcher, as long as you gear it down (2" motor pulley, gear reduction servo motor, or speed reducer double pulley) and use pressor feet without teeth. A cylinder arm walking foot machine, with narrow pressor feet that sit very close to the left edge, is even better. Most will sew with #138 nylon thread and a #22 leather point needle, which is the bare minimum for pancake holsters. Many of the commercial walking foot machines, like Juki and Consew, with the large M bobbin, can sew with #207 thread and a #23 - 24 needle.

[GunNut]

Actually that makes it all much clearer in my mind. I will "Get Smart"er as I go. LOL The gentleman I am working with at the company sent me a list of the machines for sale. Do any of these look usable for Holster making assuming I have the correct motor to go with the bed and head?

Make Model No Electrical

Juki LU-2210-6 3 phase

Juki DLN-5410N-7 3 phase

Singer 20U33 3 phase

Juki LZH-1290-6 3 phase

Brother LT2-B838 3 phase

Juki AMS-224B 3 phase

Metro Special 9346-10/01 110 single

Juki LU-2210-6 3 phase

Wilcox Gibbs 500IV 110 single (Surger)

Juki LU-2210-N-7 3 phase

Brother 3 phase

Consew 206RBLATCL(N)-3 3 phase

Juki LU-2210N-7 3 phase

Pfaff 335-H3-6/01-BSN 110 single

Singer 2366120 3 phase

[Wizcrafts]

The only machine in that list that I would even look at is the Consew 206RBLATCL(N)-3. This is an older model of the Consew 206RB series used by upholstery shops everywhere. They are made in Japan (I think) and are well built. Parts are plentiful, as are accessories. You can get all manner of pressor feet for this machine. Of course, you'd need to see it in operation before buying it, as who knows if it even sews now?

If these machines are being sold sight-unseen, pass on them. You will have to replace the motor and wiring harness, adding another $175 or so to the price you're paying.

Bob Kovar, at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines, has new and used walking foot machines and heavy leather stitchers, with servo motors installed, at very good prices. They are set-up, sewn off and ready to ship. Let me know if you want his number.

[bdt46]

Actually that makes it all much clearer in my mind. I will "Get Smart"er as I go. LOL The gentleman I am working with at the company sent me a list of the machines for sale. Do any of these look usable for Holster making assuming I have the correct motor to go with the bed and head?

Make Model No Electrical

Juki LU-2210-6 3 phase

Juki DLN-5410N-7 3 phase

Singer 20U33 3 phase

Juki LZH-1290-6 3 phase

Brother LT2-B838 3 phase

Juki AMS-224B 3 phase

Metro Special 9346-10/01 110 single

Juki LU-2210-6 3 phase

Wilcox Gibbs 500IV 110 single (Surger)

Juki LU-2210-N-7 3 phase

Brother 3 phase

Consew 206RBLATCL(N)-3 3 phase

Juki LU-2210N-7 3 phase

Pfaff 335-H3-6/01-BSN 110 single

Singer 2366120 3 phase

Any of the 3 phase machines will have to have the motor changed to single phase to work on your household current. The Pfaff 335-H3 sounds like what you need. It is a cylinder arm, with high lift foot and walking foot feed. It also has reverse feed and should be heavy enough to sew any of your holsters. But could be cost prohibitive to you if you want something in the $500 range. Wizcraft could tell you for sure about the machine!

[GunNut]

I have been Googling each machine but I am no expert on the terms being used. So the Consew 206Rblatcl(n) and Pfaff 335-H3 are candidates. What should I offer for a decent machine? Supposedly all these machines where working and in use when they stopped production.

Edit to add. WOW you guys already responded! LOL I know I will need the motor and wiring which if I get the machine at a good price would be fine. I can physically look at and touch any machine. Any basics to look for when checking them out? They all have a table.

Edited August 21, 2010 by GunNut

[GunNut]

Opps posted by mistake

Edited August 21, 2010 by GunNut

[Wizcrafts]

Absolutely, the PFAFF Model 335-H3! Put a gear reduction servo motor and new belt on it and you'll have a nice medium weight stitcher. Just don't expect this machine to sew #277 thread.

[Wizcrafts]

I should add that if the price of one of those machines exceeds $800, after you add a 120 volt servo motor, you're almost at $1000. For that money you could buy a brand new Cowboy 2500 machine. It sews up to #346 thread and is bottom fed. There is a roller foot conversion kit available and a swing-down edge guide. Awesome machine for thick, flat work! 1-800-362-7397

Edited August 21, 2010 by Wizcrafts

[GunNut]

Turns out the two machines that would work for me are both almost $1000. That is before the new motor and wiring needed to work with 110. No warranty either. Anybody got any leads on a machine for around $700 let me know.

I should add that if the price of one of those machines exceeds $800, after you add a 120 volt servo motor, you're almost at $1000. For that money you could buy a brand new Cowboy 2500 machine. It sews up to #346 thread and is bottom fed. There is a roller foot conversion kit available and a swing-down edge guide. Awesome machine for thick, flat work! 1-800-362-7397

I have been looking at the Cowboy site and can't find this machine. Would you throw me a link?

Edited August 25, 2010 by GunNut

[Wizcrafts]

Turns out the two machines that would work for me are both almost $1000. That is before the new motor and wiring needed to work with 110. No warranty either. Anybody got any leads on a machine for around $700 let me know.

I have been looking at the Cowboy site and can't find this machine. Would you throw me a link?

That's because there is no website for the US operation yet! It is in the works though...

In the meantime, here is a scan of my own brochure on the CB 2500.

[GunNut]

That's because there is no website for the US operation yet! It is in the works though...

In the meantime, here is a scan of my own brochure on the CB 2500.

Oh you are a bad bad man Wizcrafts. I put my last three guns up for sale to fund this buy all due to you. I had $500 and can borrow the $300 but now I have to get another $400! Man its a nice machine. I assume you recommend the machine for my type work? I am having serious "immediate gratification" issues now.

[Wizcrafts]

Oh you are a bad bad man Wizcrafts. I put my last three guns up for sale to fund this buy all due to you. I had $500 and can borrow the $300 but now I have to get another $400! Man its a nice machine. I assume you recommend the machine for my type work? I am having serious "immediate gratification" issues now.

The CB 2500 will make all the holsters you want. It natively sews up to 7/16", but I think it can be adjusted for a half inch. It has no problem sewing #277 or #346 thread, has a large bobbin, lots of top foot pressure and a servo motor plus speed reducer. If most of your work is one top layer, this is a good machine for you. If you have to jump up and down layers, a walking or jumping foot is better. It sounds like your holsters are one top layer, so check it out.

Oh, and it's brand new. You should mail a sample of your leather to Bob, glued together, and have him sew it off for you, with either #277 or #346 thread. Send something that represents your actual work.

You can see samples of the other machine's sewing at the same time, as a comparison. It won't handle anything over #207 thread though.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Wizcrafts

[GunNut]

Thanks for the reply. So the CB2500 is a needle feed machine? I will take your advise and run with it. This looks like my new machine.

[Wizcrafts]

Thanks for the reply. So the CB2500 is a needle feed machine? I will take your advise and run with it. This looks like my new machine.

No, it is a bottom feed dog driven machine. The needle only moves up and down and the foot it static. There is an optional roller foot available, to assist in feeding slippery top layers. Most work will feed just fine with the standard foot. I still advise you to mail Bob a glued together sample of the leather you want to sew and have him sew it on the 2500 machine, with the needle and thread you hope to use. Then you can see the results before you buy a machine.

The main thing the CB 2500 has going for it is the very heavy duty moving parts. You aren't going to hurt the machine, unless you take a sledge hammer to it. It will not break because you are sewing dense leather with #277 or 346 nylon thread.

On the other hand, try that with a Singer 153 and you may well destroy it.

Whatever your ultimate decision, I hope you get the best machine you can afford, for the work you are going to use it for. Don't neglect extra needles, in different sizes (for different thread sizes), extra bobbins (for different colors and sizes of thread), and some 1 pound spools of thread, in the sizes and colors you prefer.

Sewing with a clutch motor is difficult for beginners. Sewing with a geared down servo motor is much easier.

Good luck GunNut!

[GunNut]

If you have the time Wiz sir could you explain how the roller foot works. I have given them a deposit so I am buying this machine. I am a poor decision maker so when someone like you takes the time to explain to me the type machine I need and then suggest one to me, I trust you. The machine I ordered has a servo motor with a reducer. He is adding a smaller foot so I can sew little things and an edge guide. I have surgery on the 8th so I need to get this done now. I won't be able to move anything or do any heavy work for a month or more. I am quite excited.

[Wizcrafts]

If you have the time Wiz sir could you explain how the roller foot works.

Sure thing!

A static pressor foot just presses down on the material. This is necessary for two reasons.

1. Top pressure keeps the material from moving until you are stitching, and then only in the direction the feed moves it.
2. Top pressure keeps the material flat as the needle begins its ascent. If the material (including leather) lifts with the needle, the stitch will skip. This also tends to fray the thread.

There is a big thumbscrew on top of sewing machines, directly over the pressor foot (outer foot on walking foot machines). Turning it down increases the top pressure and visa-versa. Use it to set enough top pressure to prevent the material from lifting with the needle. No more, no less.

Too much top pressure will cause the top layer to want to go out of alignment with the lower layers (unless they are tacked or glued together). Sometimes, you will need to sew sticky material, like Naugahyde, or garment or chap leather. Normally, backing off the top pressure solves the feed problems, but if not, a roller foot will.

A roller foot, in the context of the machine you ordered, is a large wheel on a ball bearing spindle, that replaces the original pressor foot. It has a positioning screw that lets you move it sideways with respect to the needle (keep it close to the needle, but not touching it). As the feed dog moves the bottom layer, the roller rolls with the top layer, keeping the whole shebang in alignment. You can apply the necessary amount of top pressure to prevent lifting, without compromising feeding.

That's all I've got to say about tha-at!

[GunNut]

Geez you're a well spoked, and written, man sir! Thanks

[shoepatcher]

Gun Nut

Is there a telephone number I can call you at? I wanted to ask you a question on one of the machines.

shoepatcher

Geez you're a well spoked, and written, man sir! Thanks

[shoepatcher]

You could email your telephone number to me if you do not want to disclose it. My email is Shoepatcher@yahoo.com. Thanks.

glenn miller

Gun Nut

Is there a telephone number I can call you at? I wanted to ask you a question on one of the machines.

shoepatcher

[GunNut]

Well guys I got my Cowboy 2500 today. Thanks Wiz! Got here in less than a week. Bob Kovar is one hell of a guy. Hope I didn't break a rule with that word but he is. He answered all my questions and walked me through everything. I must have called him 10 times that week. He send me two spools of heavy thread, Needles, screw drivers, oil, instructions, spool tree, bobbin winder, and new table all for $1200 shipped. What a great guy and machine. The only draw back I found is the machine is in poorly translated Chinese and it took me a while to get the machine threaded. If I would have looked at how Bob had it set up I would have been fine. I got so excited after setting it up I stitched threw the thread he left in the machine! LOL Oh well I live and learn. The servo is not like the Clutch driven Juki I have used in the past. I was expecting it to handle differently. Still it will take me a little while to get used to it and how everything should work but it is a fine machine. I am very happy. Anyone know of an online resource for the manual or how to adjust tension and oil these machines?