Leather Workers

[hidepounder]

Wareagle,

When I read your post I was a little shocked at your comments because it's been my experience that the people on this forum are very generous with their advice and the time it takes to give it. And while I'm sure there have been unkind comments made from less than honorable individuals who have nothing to contribute to this forum or to anyone else for that matter, I really don't think they represent a fraction of the people that participate here and I'm sorry that your experience here has been otherwise.

I would like to say however, that not every query here deserves a response! There is a BIG difference between asking for guidance to improve and asking for a freebie at someone elses expense. It is pretty bad form to ask someone to share their proprietary technique or pattern that they spent days or weeks to perfect! Such a request will probably not evoke much feedback. But there is a lot of talent here anxious to help someone who wants to learn how to go about accomplishing these tasks for themselves. I like Peter's comment "You can help me to help myself get better". That is a terrific attitude and I believe the people associated with this forum will do just that!

You commented that this is a dying art but I couldn't disagree more! The greatest leather artists of all time are currently producing their best works. I believe we are currently living in the Renaissance of the leather industry. And the support industry has exploded providing new products and tools designed to expand and improve the capabilities of the leather artisan. Additionally there are more shows, schools and clinics where an indiviual has the opportunity to learn from the best in the business than has ever been available before.

I am proud to have the opportunity to be associated with the people on this forum as there are so many talented individuals here who give unselfishly of their time. I hope that your future experiences on this forum improve and that you will share your own expertise with those of us who are anxious to learn.

Bob Park

Edited September 4, 2010 by hidepounder

[UKRay]

"The greatest leather artists of all time are currently producing their best works. I believe this is the Renaissance of the leather industry."

Superb quote, Bob - we ought to have it on the front page of the forum!

Ray

[CitizenKate]

Where I am coming from is the the less than 10% of the people here that when a question on how to do something is asked their response is go find out for your self that is what I had to do. ... but for them just to say do it yourself and find it your self is rude and crude and leaves the forum looking bad for the new people trying to learn.

I know what you're referring to, and I hope you will allow me, as one of the site moderators, to indulge in speaking my mind on this topic.

I think it's very unfortunate when someone posts a response like that. If they don't care to share what they know, fine. That is the choice of everyone who visits here. But in that case, they might as well have just kept their virtual mouth shut and let someone who wants to be helpful respond next, instead of figuratively telling the OP (original poster) to get lost. This is a very good example of the very opposite of the spirit and attitude upon which Leatherworker.net was built. This site is about learning and sharing what knowledge and ideas we are willing to share. If everyone got an answer like that, we would have no reason to exist as an online community.

Now, on the other side of the coin... when someone asks a question, they should not assume they are entitled to an answer, and go off in a huff because they didn't get something they thought they were entitled to. The majority of the time, people here share quite generously, but we don't expect everyone who knows something to share anything and everything they know. Everyone has different ideas about creativity vs competition and how to ensure their place in the marketplace, and though we may not always agree, they are entitled to their own views and practices.

On some occasions when I myself could not get an answer I was looking for, I took that as my cue to proceed to R&D mode. (That's research and development, not to be mistaken for R&B, which is rhythm and blues. On second thought, come to think of it... but wait - I digress!!) That's when I start with the trial-and-error method of getting my answer. You cannot expect to get very far in your art without investing some sweat equity into it. Wasting some leather on prototypes, trying half-cooked ideas and failing a few times, then trying it again a different way, buying and reading books on numerous topics (not just leatherwork - there is knowledge to be gained about things you can do with leather from other forms of art and craft).

Am I willing to share what I learn that way? Absolutely, and in return, others have shared similar information that have helped me develop my art, and at the end of the day, we're all in a better place. That whole "competition" paradigm has just never worked for me; it's more about diverting energy away from the creation of new ideas, new processes, and new designs, and more on preventing others from reaching your own level, which then cuts you off from collaboration with others that may have in turn helped you. Maybe there will be one person who is at the top of the proverbial heap, but it ain't much of a heap, nowhutImean? Might as well call it a race to the bottom.

Focusing more on the creation of new work is my idea of a race to the top. And sure, someone else may beat me to the top of the heap - many already have in fact - it becomes a moot point because it's a lot bigger heap, and we're all better off than we would be, even compared to being at the top of that "other" heap I was talking about.

Patterns and designs are a different matter, of course, but I think others have addressed that topic adequately.

I've prattled on long enough... someone else's turn now.

Kate

[wareagle]

I fully agree Kate you put my thoughts into words better than I ever could .... get out of my head =-)

I know what you're referring to, and I hope you will allow me, as one of the site moderators, to indulge in speaking my mind on this topic.

I think it's very unfortunate when someone posts a response like that. If they don't care to share what they know, fine. That is the choice of everyone who visits here. But in that case, they might as well have just kept their virtual mouth shut and let someone who wants to be helpful respond next, instead of figuratively telling the OP (original poster) to get lost. This is a very good example of the very opposite of the spirit and attitude upon which Leatherworker.net was built. This site is about learning and sharing what knowledge and ideas we are willing to share. If everyone got an answer like that, we would have no reason to exist as an online community.

Now, on the other side of the coin... when someone asks a question, they should not assume they are entitled to an answer, and go off in a huff because they didn't get something they thought they were entitled to. The majority of the time, people here share quite generously, but we don't expect everyone who knows something to share anything and everything they know. Everyone has different ideas about creativity vs competition and how to ensure their place in the marketplace, and though we may not always agree, they are entitled to their own views and practices.

On some occasions when I myself could not get an answer I was looking for, I took that as my cue to proceed to R&D mode. (That's research and development, not to be mistaken for R&B, which is rhythm and blues. On second thought, come to think of it... but wait - I digress!!) That's when I start with the trial and error method of getting my answer. You cannot expect to get very far in your art without investing some sweat equity into it. Wasting some leather on prototypes, trying half-cooked ideas and failing a few times, then trying it again a different way, buying and reading books on numerous topics (not just leatherwork - there is knowledge to be gained about things you can do with leather from other forms of art and craft).

Am I willing to share what I learn that way? Absolutely, and in return, others have shared similar information that have helped me develop my art, and at the end of the day, we're all in a better place. That whole "competition" paradigm has just never worked for me; it's more about diverting energy away from the creation of new ideas, new processes, and new designs, and more on preventing others from reaching your own level, which then cuts you off from collaboration with others that may have in turn helped you. Maybe there will be one person who is at the top of the proverbial heap, but it ain't much of a heap, nowhutImean?

Focusing more on the creation of new work is my idea of a race to the top. And sure, someone else may beat me to the top of the heap - many already have in fact - it becomes a moot point because it's a lot bigger heap, and we're all better off than we would be, even compared to being at the top of that "other" heap I was talking about.

Patterns and designs are a different matter, of course, but I think others have addressed that topic adequately.

I've prattled on long enough... someone else's turn now.

Kate

[hidepounder]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well! Indeed I think all of the comments by Ray and RDB and everyone else have been excellent.

I believe I know what post wareagle is referring to also and I am glad you made some comments regarding it. I was angry when I read it and started to respond but decided I should keep my mouth shut. Upon reflection I suspect the individual who responded to the question didn't have a clue about the answer but felt some need to be condescending and mean spirited in order to boost his own ego. Someone should invent a spray for people like that! Thank goodness those kind of comments are not at all typical on this forum which is evidenced by those who have responded here.

I have spouted off twice now so I think it's time to get off my soapbox and go make something!

Bobby

[UKRay]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well!

[whinewine]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well! Indeed I think all of the comments by Ray and RDB and everyone else have been excellent.

I believe I know what post wareagle is referring to also and I am glad you made some comments regarding it. I was angry when I read it and started to respond but decided I should keep my mouth shut. Upon reflection I suspect the individual who responded to the question didn't have a clue about the answer but felt some need to be condescending and mean spirited in order to boost his own ego. Someone should invent a spray for people like that! Thank goodness those kind of comments are not at all typical on this forum which is evidenced by those who have responded here.

Bobby

[JohnBarton]

I agree with Ray on both points.  I find that most here are super friendly and willing to offer advice on how to do just about anything leather related.  Of course a few of us have a few "secret" techniques that we'd like to keep to ourselves as long as we can just to protect our business edge as long as we can.  But for the most part we share enough to get anyone headed in the right direction on most things.   I can truthfully say that I OWE this community a lot more than I will ever be able to repay them.  My products wouldn't be half as good as they are now without the generosity of the great people on this board.

Also I don't think leathercrafting is dying out at all.  I look around the web and find all sorts of people doing things with leather.  On this board alone we have great people from all over the world.  If anything this forum helps to spark people's interest in leather crafting by showing off all the things that can be made with leather.

I firmly believe that with renewed interest in going "green" and getting back to nature that leather crafted goods and leather working in general is going to see an upswing in the coming years.  And this forum and the people who make up this community will be leading the way.

[roo4u]

ok im a braider not a leatherworker, but i greedily soak up all knowledge on this site. and one thing i have noticed is how nice it is that some folks who work a fulltime job and do leatherwork on a high quality level still take the time out of their busy lives to answer question from newbies. some of these things have been asked over and over and yet are still patiently answered by most that post. i take an occasional cranky comment with a grain of salt. i try not to post when im not a happy camper. but i also understand that some things you do have to learn for yourself. im actually thinking about trying my hand at some tooling in part because of the things i have learned from browsing this site.

[JohnBarton]

@ Kate - 

Thanks for a GREAT post.  I like your views on competition and sharing rather than hoarding "secrets".  You have opened my eyes a little more with your heap analogy and now I can better see what an abundance mentality should contain.