Leather Workers

[UKRay]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well!

[whinewine]

That was very well said, Kate, I wish I could have expressed my feelings so well! Indeed I think all of the comments by Ray and RDB and everyone else have been excellent.

I believe I know what post wareagle is referring to also and I am glad you made some comments regarding it. I was angry when I read it and started to respond but decided I should keep my mouth shut. Upon reflection I suspect the individual who responded to the question didn't have a clue about the answer but felt some need to be condescending and mean spirited in order to boost his own ego. Someone should invent a spray for people like that! Thank goodness those kind of comments are not at all typical on this forum which is evidenced by those who have responded here.

Bobby

[JohnBarton]

I agree with Ray on both points.  I find that most here are super friendly and willing to offer advice on how to do just about anything leather related.  Of course a few of us have a few "secret" techniques that we'd like to keep to ourselves as long as we can just to protect our business edge as long as we can.  But for the most part we share enough to get anyone headed in the right direction on most things.   I can truthfully say that I OWE this community a lot more than I will ever be able to repay them.  My products wouldn't be half as good as they are now without the generosity of the great people on this board.

Also I don't think leathercrafting is dying out at all.  I look around the web and find all sorts of people doing things with leather.  On this board alone we have great people from all over the world.  If anything this forum helps to spark people's interest in leather crafting by showing off all the things that can be made with leather.

I firmly believe that with renewed interest in going "green" and getting back to nature that leather crafted goods and leather working in general is going to see an upswing in the coming years.  And this forum and the people who make up this community will be leading the way.

[roo4u]

ok im a braider not a leatherworker, but i greedily soak up all knowledge on this site. and one thing i have noticed is how nice it is that some folks who work a fulltime job and do leatherwork on a high quality level still take the time out of their busy lives to answer question from newbies. some of these things have been asked over and over and yet are still patiently answered by most that post. i take an occasional cranky comment with a grain of salt. i try not to post when im not a happy camper. but i also understand that some things you do have to learn for yourself. im actually thinking about trying my hand at some tooling in part because of the things i have learned from browsing this site.

[JohnBarton]

@ Kate - 

Thanks for a GREAT post.  I like your views on competition and sharing rather than hoarding "secrets".  You have opened my eyes a little more with your heap analogy and now I can better see what an abundance mentality should contain.

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Some people think that blacksmithing is a dying art, but like leather working it still has a lot of practitioners of the craft. iforgeiron.com has around 14,000 members, and represents 50 countries.

They, like this site, are also very forthcoming with information. They realize that to keep the craft alive new members need to be encouraged. If someone just fumbles around with a craft, and has a hard time with the basics, how long will they continue with it?

Before getting onto this site the only leather suppliers I knew of were Tandy, and The Leather Factory. To see how many other suppliers are in the game tells me that there are enough people doing leather work to be profitable despite the competition.

My Mom stopped doing leather work in the early 80's when the cost of leather got too high for her. I could see with the current economic times where some may stop, but there will always be someone doing the work. Along with that, there will be people willing to buy well made unique items that have been handcrafted.

[K-Man]

You're going to run across all kinds of people (and attitudes) in this industry. My own experience has been very positive for the most part. I have had instances where my inquiries of "how to/where can I find" have been ignored or have been told to figure it out for myself by a myriad of folks. These include moderators and ambassadors on this forum, other peers in the holster industry in particular, and even an Al Stohlman award winner. So it happens at all levels. My perspective when that happens is that the person is just being ignorant and rude. I have no further respect for them and ignore them thereafter. You have just got to move on past it. There's plenty of very competent people on this forum who will readily answer your questions and try to help you in whatever way they can.

[katsass]

Ya know I understand some people on this board consider leather working an industry and as such won't share how they do something when asked, I'm fine with their attitude and understand why they do that. But Leather working is also a dieing art that needs to be passed on to our future generations, and if all of the leather workers took this view we would soon be without the art of leather working, and left with the mass producers turning out second rate knock offs of some of the best work here.

I for one came here to learn new techniques and advance my leather working knowledge, also to impart what little knowledge I have from the techniques I have learned over the past 30+ years.

The statement I remember most from the different teachers I have had is the way you learn is when you see a new skill, research it, study it, then adapt it for the way you work and make it your own.

Also there is no one way to obtain the same results. for example looking at the various ways of skiving.

My thoughts on responding to queries on this (or other) forums is this. I respond when the question covers a point which I feel that I have enough experience and knowledge of, so as to be able to give some measure of assistance. I never try to be condescending or (at the worst) sharp or abrupt, and I hope I never come across in that way. However, I do have a problem with the individual that asks a question, then when answered (one or more times) continues to ask for and more specific instruction. Frequently his final word is to make an excuse for an unsuccessful outcome or the inability to do as instructed. I know that most of us have butchered quite a bit of leather over the years; made mistakes; worked our way through problems; spent the time, money and effort. I feel that someone that is not willing to make that effort is not worth my time for a response. That said, I simply bypass any query by that individual rather than express my displeasure. I'm no expert, I also use this forum as a teaching aid, I'm just a grumpy old man that works a little on leather holsters, and you may not be of similar attitude. Mike

Edited September 6, 2010 by katsass

[dirtclod]

I've been working in the shop a good bit of today and just couldn't get this off my mind. Like others have said this not a dyeing art form. People starting out and people that have been doing leather work for years myself included have a easier access to more information than ever before !! When i came on this form a little over a year ago i had a hard beliving that folks were sharing so much information expecting nothing more than a thank you or thanks that really helped. I for one have learned lots of new things here.

That is so different than it was a few years ago. If you were lucky enough for somebody to show you how to do something it was a Boy Howdy Day. I was lucky enough to meet a guy that really helped me out. I guess he though this ole boy needs some help !! He was nice enough to let me come and work in his shop for over a year no charge. All i had to do was furnish all of my materials and what tools i had. If i didn't have a tool he would let me borrow his till i could get that tool or tools.

There are a lot of givers and takers myself included in the takers that do their best to soak in what is shared on this form and just like in life some pass along what they learn and some just want to pick the good folks here brain and then their off to do their own thing. Never to come back, except to show off something they have made and get the AT A BOYS then their gone again till they get something else made.

When some one answers a question that helps direcetly or indirectly take it for what it is a gift of their experience and their screw ups. Over the years i have screwed up and threw away enough leather to build two or three saddles. Their are real artist here both in leather and just being able to draw a design. They may be able to help me on a suggestion for a tool or something but their not going to be able to make me or anyone else good at it. That only comes from pratice and more pratice and some natural talent won't hurt either. Will i ever be as good as them probley not but i can improve on what i do.

JMO and it's like butts and belly buttons most ever body has one.

Edited September 6, 2010 by dirtclod

[UKRay]

My personal approach to forum questions is to offer help if I can add something useful to the discussion. I'm interested to know why people might ignore questions or requests for help on this forum? What would stop YOU offering your assistance? Also what would prompt you to be helpful?

Ray

[hidepounder]

My personal approach to forum questions is to offer help if I can add something useful to the discussion. I'm interested to know why people might ignore questions or requests for help on this forum? What would stop YOU offering your assistance? Also what would prompt you to be helpful?

Ray

Ray, I'm really glad you asked this question! When I first joined this group I was excited to find so many people with the same disease as mine. I jumped in and responded to everything I thought I could contribute to. I quickly discovered however that it takes a lot of time to answer requests for assistance. Especially when a new member posts a photo of his very first tooling attempt and wants a critique! I used to spend hours trying to point out two or three items which need improving and explaining myself. Additionally I'd try to find something positive to say so as to be encouraging (sometimes that was the most difficult thing to do, LOL!). The bottom line for me however is that I just cannot spend two hours a day responding to questions. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect that a lot of the "Pro's" here discovered this a long before I did and that is why we don't hear from them more often. Additionally if requests can be limited to specific questions there is a much better chance of getting help. When someone asks "what tools should I buy so that my tooling looks like yours?" my response is probably going to be disappointing!

Another point worth mentioning is that it is helpful if a question is asked on the forum rather than in private email. I get tons of email requests for assistance every day from people who are too emabarassed to ask a question on the forum. I understand that, however, they don't realize that there are a lot of people out there who would like to hear the answer because they were too embarrassed to ask also. Consequently I have to repeat answers every day. One of the ways I've tried to deal with this was to develop tutorials that I can just forward in the form of a PDF file, rather than to repeat my answer. I have several I am working on and these will save me some time and hopefully help those requesting assitance.

Anyway, that's my personal point of view and I think this question provides a great opportunity to discuss the kinds of requests which are most likely to be responded to. Thanks again Ray!

Bobby

[Johanna]

Bobby, when someone sends you a PM like that, just cut and paste this:

"Johanna prefers that we keep all this info on the board where everyone can learn from it, so if I answer you, she'll find out, and I'll get in trouble. Like she said, better to have lots of leatherworkers opinions anyway- that way you can sort out what works for you. I'll look for your post on LW. Thanks, Bobby"

Feel free to borrow that- anybody who is also getting swamped with PMs that belong on the board. Tell them you don't want to tick Johanna off. They will understand, and you might get some peace. Not everyone has hours to spend at their keyboard.

The Internet forum standard rule of thumb is the 90-9-1 rule,

From Wikipedia: "90-9-1" version of this rule states that 1% of people create content, 9% edit or modify that content, and 90% view the content without contributing.

We exceed that by far- this is a tight community. Most people use their real names here- anonymity can be a red flag.

Someone made a comment that the mods and ambassadors were rude to them. I want proof. I've not ever doubted the integrity of the people who devote so much time and energy into making this a friendly and cooperative place. They and our regulars go above and beyond to make new folks feel welcome, and in more than 4 years we've only had a couple of trolls on this board. The staff immediately identified the problems and took care of it.

I don't mean to sound defensive, but I'm very impressed with all the sharing and conversation here, and I think we do better than most online communities. So that's my two cents.

Johanna

[K-Man]

Someone made a comment that the mods and ambassadors were rude to them. I want proof.

Sorry, Johanna, I'm not providing names/that proof. As I mentioned in my posting, I've moved past it. My point was/is that it happens at all levels of the industry.

Edited September 8, 2010 by K-Man

[JohnBarton]

I will say this. If I have a cool technique that I spent a lot of time on that really makes my product way better and it's not something that someone could learn by surface inspection of my product - in other words they would need to take my case apart then I am probably not going to share how to do it for a while. I just think that a few things ought to be earned. You can point someone in the right direction but if you tell them everything then what's the point of competing.

I buy all the cases I can from competing brands. I tear them apart and study them and don't hesitate to take any good techniques I can find and I expect that others should do the same for me. I will also ask other case makers how they did something and if they tell me great and if not then no big deal. I give out a lot of information freely but from time to time I have told my colleagues I'd rather not divulge something.

My tooler Zhen Hai went through this last year. We hired a graphic designer and like everyone else in the shop he took up an interest in leather work and asked Zhen Hai to teach him. Zhen Hai did and then this guy started up a website to compete with Zhen Hai WHILE he was still working for me. He copied all Zhen Hai's popular models and cut the price in half. He has since quit making leather goods but for a while it was kind of tense.

As a result Zhen Hai is very reluctant to teach anyone else in my shop anything.

I still am into Kate's views more than into taking a protectionist stance. But what I can say is ask for help and don't expect any. That way you can be grateful for whatever comes.