New To The Forum And Looking For Feedback-

[roperdad]

Hello to all-

I just found this forum in the last couple of days and really enjoy what I've seen here so far. My Dad and I have made quite a few saddles now as a hobby/part-time job. Seeing the work and reading the critiques offered has been very enlightening for me. I'd appreciate you eyeballing what I've put up here and being honest. I've seen some honest criticism on here, and really appreciate the courage it takes to both offer and learn from it.

Functionally I know our work is solid. I'm now working on the aesthetic side of it. Trips to the Sheridan Leather Show and seeing Mr. Seidel's work, along with Don Butler, King's, etc... always offers a humbling and challenging experience.

I'm proud to say many of our saddles are ridden daily in WY, MT and SD by working cowboys. That is my goal and the best compliment we can receive. Now I want to make them look better doing it!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, suggestions and criticism-

Clay

[kseidel]

Hello to all-

I just found this forum in the last couple of days and really enjoy what I've seen here so far. My Dad and I have made quite a few saddles now as a hobby/part-time job. Seeing the work and reading the critiques offered has been very enlightening for me. I'd appreciate you eyeballing what I've put up here and being honest. I've seen some honest criticism on here, and really appreciate the courage it takes to both offer and learn from it.

Functionally I know our work is solid. I'm now working on the aesthetic side of it. Trips to the Sheridan Leather Show and seeing Mr. Seidel's work, along with Don Butler, King's, etc... always offers a humbling and challenging experience.

I'm proud to say many of our saddles are ridden daily in WY, MT and SD by working cowboys. That is my goal and the best compliment we can receive. Now I want to make them look better doing it!

Thanks in advance for your thoughts, suggestions and criticism-

Clay

Your desire to improve the aesthetics of your work is admirable! I commend you on the work that you are currently doing. Fundamentally, a saddle must be comfortable for the horse, comfortable for the rider, and strong enough for the application for which it was made. Everything else is cosmetic. It seems that you have those areas covered at least on the basic level. Cosmetics are not just making the saddle look better, they play a great part in the longevity of the saddle and can even affect the balance of horse and rider.

Your saddle has an overall coarseness about it...but upon closer inspection, it has many good features. The smooth shape of the seat, the cantle ear is tight, the horizontal lines are straight. Other areas overshadow these good points. Some of the areas that need attention that I see are:

1) The overall saddle seems out of proportion. Skirts are too long in front, and jockeys are too long in back. The front of the skirt is as deep as the back, giving a tilting effect. There is more space between front jockey and edge of skirt than in rear... There should be more in rear and less in front.

2) Welt on swell is at an unusual angle and does not fit with the saddle shape.

3) There is a lot of loose space between the skirts and jockeys, both front and rear.

4) The latigo carrier is too low and out of square with the saddle. It looks like an afterthought.

5) The rear rigging looks like it was added later. It is not integrated into the rest of the rigging and hangs far below the jockey without support.

6) The front edge of the cantle binding does not follow the edge of the seat. It is set too far back in the top center, and wraps too far forward at the bottom. The profile line is not smooth and pleasing.

7) The center of the rear jockeys is not lined up with the center of the skirt.

8) There are a lot of marks and dings in the surface of the leather. An old man I used to work for said "No one wants to have 'turkey tracks' on their new saddle" Work the leather a little drier, and rub out the marks when fitting each piece. Be more careful to avoid these marks as they can be impossible to remove completely.

9) The angles of your skirts and jockeys are too square. Add a little more angle to the back and front skirt shape, making the corners a little longer. Then make the transition from straight to curve and back to straight smoother. You have some choppy corners in these transition areas. I use a small block plane to smooth the corners.

10) You are stamping the leather too wet. The stamps are mushy and not crisp. Allow the leather to dry back to natural color on the surface before stamping, and place the stamps more carefully... especially on the border. Try to be precise, not fast. Speed comes with proficiency.

This is a lot of information for you to work on, but you have a good foundation to build upon. You must work at becoming smooth. Stand back and evaluate your work as someone who has never seen it before. A wise man once said "Oh to see ourselves as others see us." I hope this is helpful to you and not discouraging. Best of luck to you!

Keith

[roo4u]

well im no saddler but from a saddler shoppers point of view....the overall balance between all the parts is off especially the skirts and jockeys. best advice i can offer is go thru the photos of some of the excellent saddle work on this site and compare with your own and see what you can improve on, focusing on balance and proportion.

[roperdad]

Keith-

Thank you for your timely respone. Greater attentinon to detail and patience will cure a couple of the problems with my work you have pointed out. There are a couple comments I'd like clarification on, if you would indulge me?

In order:

1) By "longer" do you mean horizontally? By "deeper" vertically?

2) I see that clearly now that you have pointed it out and I've looked at pictures of other's work.

3) Should I shape them more wet to cure that?

4) Noted and cured for next time.

5) Ditto #4

6) I struggle badly with the cantle binding. I lack confidence here. Any suggestions you may have would be greatly appreciated.

7) Ditto #4

8) Patience and attention to detail, huh? Not my strong suits. But I can do that.

9) A wood block and sandpaper? By more round do you mean a larger radius corner, or will using the block and smoothing the transitions be enough?

10) I always panic that the leather is going to dry out before I finish. Sounds like I need to experiment here with how dry I can tool the leather. And again, patience and attention to detail.

The first time I read your post, I wondered if I should put my tools up for sale. Then I re-read them and compared our work to other's and can see why you bring out the points you do. I have a tree on the table. You've helped me raise the bar I have to clear for the next one. I'm going to print this off and tack it over my bench.

roo4u-

Your suggestion about looking at the pic's of others is dead on. Having done that I see what you mean by balance and proportion.

Thanks to you both.

Clay

[roo4u]

congrats on striving to improve...i look forward to seeing your next saddle!

[kseidel]

There are a couple comments I'd like clarification on, if you would indulge me?

1) By "longer" do you mean horizontally? By "deeper" vertically?

Yes, Longer is front to back, and deeper is top to bottom.

3) Should I shape them more wet to cure that?

Fitting jockeys tightly is difficult to master, and maybe more difficult to explain in words. Fitting them wetter will not mame them tighter, and may make matters worse. The principle is that you need to cut the parts so that when stretched into place they are tight all around. How to do that? On the rear jockeys: With the skirts in place, fit one side around the back of the cantle leaving all other edges long. Then, hold the top tight into the corner of the cantle and bar space, and slide the front edge under the cantle tip down about 1/4 - 3/8 inch below the cantle tip. Hold in place and mark center up thru the center of the skirts. Cut this line, and then flip this piece over and check for fit on the other side. If the tree is true, they should be nearly the same. Cut the other side using the first as a pattern, making any necessary adjustments for tree discrepancy. Lace them together with thread, and wet them moderately (submerged about 10 seconds) and stretch them into place. Use a spike on each side about the end of the cantle, and pulling down and forward. Then use another spike forward of this one and pull the end forward and upward. This will tighten up your corner. (you will have four spikes in use, 2 on each side.)

On the seat, the method id somewhat the same. put one spike in the hole under the swell where the screw will go. Pull down and forward. Then use another spike at the front where the front rosette will go and pull forward and upward. You should expect to pull this about 1/2 inch or so. This will pull your front jockey very tight around the swell and make the outside corner tight to the skirt.

6) I struggle badly with the cantle binding. I lack confidence here. Any suggestions you may have would be greatly appreciated.

Many people struggle here. Once your seat is glued into place, define the edge of the cantle as clearly as possible with a rub stick or bouncer. Then, using dividers, scribe a line where you want the edge of your cantle binding to lay. Put it where you want it. It can be very close or backed off some, but make it the same distance from the edge all the way around. Mark this line well as you will use it to mark the width of the cantle roll, as well as fit the cantle binding to it later on. From this line, mark and trim the cheyenne roll. Later when you are ready to install the cantle binding, fit it true to this line. It is no harder to fit it straight and smooth than to put it on crooked. You will need to plan ahead when cutting the seat around the cantle ears to leave enough to final cut to the edge of the cantle binding line. If you cut the ear to deep, you will have a gap that will be impossible to fill without putting the edge of the cantle binding forward of the line, thus ruining the smooth effect.

8) Patience and attention to detail, huh? Not my strong suits. But I can do that.

Try working your leather with different temper. Maybe more wet, maybe more dry. Find what works best for you. My experience is most people work the leather much too wet.

9) A wood block and sandpaper? By more round do you mean a larger radius corner, or will using the block and smoothing the transitions be enough?

Two things here: 1) The angles of the corners. I did not say this clearly last post... The vertical lines of the skirt, both front and back, intersect the horizontal line of the bottom of the skirt at an angle too close to 90 degrees. Change this angle to be smaller. (more like 75 or 80) keeping the distance from the back of the cantle at the top of the skirt, extend the point of intersection with the bottom skirt line maybe 3/4 -1 inch. Experiment with what looks good to you and study other makers work also.

2) Transitioning from straight to curve and back to straight. The radius is irrelevant. Make it what you want. However, Even though it is a dramatic change in direction, it can be smooth. The block plane I refer to is a woodworking tool that is a flat surface with a blade in the middle. See this link Block plane This tool allows you to smooth out rough cuts. Even the best makers make rough cuts sometimes and need to smooth out our work. This is an invaluable too for smoothing corners of skirts, jockeys, seat jockeys, cantle rolls, and even horns.

10) I always panic that the leather is going to dry out before I finish. Sounds like I need to experiment here with how dry I can tool the leather. And again, patience and attention to detail.

Almost everyone stamps too wet. You would be surprised at how much drier it can be stamped, and how much easier and crisper the stamping can be when the leather is drier. It is also easier to avoid the unsightly markes made by tools and fingernails.

The first time I read your post, I wondered if I should put my tools up for sale. Then I re-read them and compared our work to other's and can see why you bring out the points you do. I have a tree on the table. You've helped me raise the bar I have to clear for the next one. I'm going to print this off and tack it over my bench.

You have a lot to work on, but show some real potential. I do not waste time posting this much information to those I do not think are ready for the next level. Maybe this is all it will take to change the course of your career. I have seen great things from makers with far less talent than you. It won't be easy, and will cost you time which will cost you profits in the short run, but the rewards can be great. Many years ago I saw saddles at the Sheridan leather show that were so exceptional, that it made me want to go home and throw my tools away.... I would never reach that level! Then I began to realize that at one time they were at my level. Maybe over time I too could be that good. Now I am winning that show. Give it your best! You are on the right road to improvement.

Best wishes my friend,

Respectfully,

Keith Seidel