Advice On Lasting Boots

[sepulverture]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Norwegian]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

Would love to try to help you out!

Could you please be a little more specific on what you want to know? Is it the toe that's the problem? Do you want help with making a toe box? Lasting? Or are you thinkng about the whole boot? I don't think the thing with boiling water will work here..

Rik

[Leatherimages]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

There really are alot of unknowns in what you've got going on here. I don't know where you're starting from, or whose method you're working with. But I'll offer what I can.

First it sounds like you may be using veg tan, if you're 'trying to tool it with a hammer on the last'. Actually, veg will make for a very stiff foot once you've got it lasted.

It would not be a very comfortable boot, and not really for first timers or unguided. Chrome would be better. Your 6-7 ounce is very heavy, and you don't say anything about lining leather.

I don't know it this will address your issues, but try this next time.

Use 3-4 ounce vamp chrome tanned vamp leather, and 3-4 ounce vamp lining leather. Before lasting, soaking it in warm water for an hour or so. This is mostly to soften the veg tanned counter, which you don't say anything about.

So after lasting, and allowing the boot to dry on the last for several days (depending on the humidity in your area), take the vamp loose at the toe only, leaving the lining still in place. Now install your toe box. The toe box is what makes a hard toe, and is it's own lesson with several choices. Briefly, use 6.5 ounce veg, skived at the edge. Once it's cased, installed and allowed to sit for anouther day or two, shape and harden with celluloid cement. Once that's hardened under several coats, pull the toe of your vamp back over it all. Now you'd be ready to inseam, and pull the last.

This probably raises more questions than answers, but there you go.

As my first teacher used to always say, 'there's more to it than meets the eye'.

[sepulverture]

There really are alot of unknowns in what you've got going on here. I don't know where you're starting from, or whose method you're working with. But I'll offer what I can.

First it sounds like you may be using veg tan, if you're 'trying to tool it with a hammer on the last'. Actually, veg will make for a very stiff foot once you've got it lasted.

It would not be a very comfortable boot, and not really for first timers or unguided. Chrome would be better. Your 6-7 ounce is very heavy, and you don't say anything about lining leather.

I don't know it this will address your issues, but try this next time.

Use 3-4 ounce vamp chrome tanned vamp leather, and 3-4 ounce vamp lining leather. Before lasting, soaking it in warm water for an hour or so. This is mostly to soften the veg tanned counter, which you don't say anything about.

So after lasting, and allowing the boot to dry on the last for several days (depending on the humidity in your area), take the vamp loose at the toe only, leaving the lining still in place. Now install your toe box. The toe box is what makes a hard toe, and is it's own lesson with several choices. Briefly, use 6.5 ounce veg, skived at the edge. Once it's cased, installed and allowed to sit for anouther day or two, shape and harden with celluloid cement. Once that's hardened under several coats, pull the toe of your vamp back over it all. Now you'd be ready to inseam, and pull the last.

This probably raises more questions than answers, but there you go.

As my first teacher used to always say, 'there's more to it than meets the eye'.

Thanks Norwegian and L.I. for the prompt reples!

Basically I am trying to construct a toe-box. What I am attempting to make is a double vamped outdoors boot, but before trying to make the boot I need to work out the problems I've been having with lasting.

I believe the leather is veg tanned, although I'm not sure. Unfortunately I live in China, and since Chinese is my second language I've had some trouble getting some of the related jargon down in Chinese. I think it's veg tanned though because if you take a nick out of the leather with a knife you can see that it is colored through all layers of the fiber, which I was told at one point is a characteristic of veg tanned leather, but I can't be sure.

Basically I am teaching myself at the moment for lack of a mentor, although I have hung around some of the cordwainers shops (which are few and far between). Some of them have been gracious enough to let me hang around and look over their shoulder, but most of the shoes I have seen have been purely cemented constructions, which is not what I was wanting to do. Regardless of the method I have learned a lot, but have only been able to wander in and watch them at whatever stage of construction they happened to be at at that moment.

With regards to lining leathers, basically i have none right now. I realized that I will need several layers of lighter weight leather, or a lighter weight leather combined with the heavier leather. The main goal of these experiments was to get a better grasp of the lasting process so that when I begin actual work on my boots the result will be better.

I actually have no counter on the last, since I was only intending to practice stretch and hardening leather on the last, and didn't want to cut any new sheets until I was closer to being ready for a full undertaking.

What I did was took a piece of scrap leather (I think veg tan 6~7oz) and stretched it over the last after soaking it in cool water for about 15 minutes, tacked it to the last starting under the tip of the toe, and pulled and tacked around the edges until it was taut and even over the last, and let it dry. When it was dry I poured two gallons (roughly) worth of near-boiling water over it following the method used for cuir bouilli leather hardening with boiling water which got me almost no results on this occasion, although I have achieved very good results on different items. After the boiled water treatment I let them sit overnight to dry and hopefully harden. The results were disappointing as they held shape well, but were soft and overall just not what I expected. After letting them sit for another afternoon they are more pliable and springy, but still not what I had expected.

What I got from your suggestions is that I should be using a thinner veg tan liner and a heavier chrome tanned outer vamp. I am fuzzy on the process though. How do you case it? What do you mean by this?

How exactly do you construct the toe box? Just from the brief description of your last post it sounds like I should first use a thin 3-ish oz inner liner tacked to the last and then encase that with a heavier leather similar to what I am currently using and cement it to the liner. Skiving the edges is no problem, I have some experience with that and have a good knife for doing so.

What I"m not clear about is what is meant by lasting now. My understanding of lasting was using a pair of pliers/curved lasting pliers to pull the leather taut over the last and then tack the leather to prepare upper and sole to be attached.

I guess basically I am wanting to know how to construct a toe box, and if there are preferred methods for lasting a shoe, and how to construct the upper. I have read a ton of tutorials and watched some videos about lasting the upper once it's made, but have seen very little information about actually putting the upper together and preparing it for lasting.

I have other questions, but this is getting lengthy and perhaps it would be better to save them for when they are more relevant.

Thanks for the help so far! Hope to hear back with more information.

Edited September 25, 2010 by sepulverture

[Norwegian]

Thanks Norwegian and L.I. for the prompt reples!

Basically I am trying to construct a toe-box. What I am attempting to make is a double vamped outdoors boot, but before trying to make the boot I need to work out the problems I've been having with lasting.

I believe the leather is veg tanned, although I'm not sure. Unfortunately I live in China, and since Chinese is my second language I've had some trouble getting some of the related jargon down in Chinese. I think it's veg tanned though because if you take a nick out of the leather with a knife you can see that it is colored through all layers of the fiber, which I was told at one point is a characteristic of veg tanned leather, but I can't be sure.

Basically I am teaching myself at the moment for lack of a mentor, although I have hung around some of the cordwainers shops (which are few and far between). Some of them have been gracious enough to let me hang around and look over their shoulder, but most of the shoes I have seen have been purely cemented constructions, which is not what I was wanting to do. Regardless of the method I have learned a lot, but have only been able to wander in and watch them at whatever stage of construction they happened to be at at that moment.

With regards to lining leathers, basically i have none right now. I realized that I will need several layers of lighter weight leather, or a lighter weight leather combined with the heavier leather. The main goal of these experiments was to get a better grasp of the lasting process so that when I begin actual work on my boots the result will be better.

I actually have no counter on the last, since I was only intending to practice stretch and hardening leather on the last, and didn't want to cut any new sheets until I was closer to being ready for a full undertaking.

What I did was took a piece of scrap leather (I think veg tan 6~7oz) and stretched it over the last after soaking it in cool water for about 15 minutes, tacked it to the last starting under the tip of the toe, and pulled and tacked around the edges until it was taut and even over the last, and let it dry. When it was dry I poured two gallons (roughly) worth of near-boiling water over it following the method used for cuir bouilli leather hardening with boiling water which got me almost no results on this occasion, although I have achieved very good results on different items. After the boiled water treatment I let them sit overnight to dry and hopefully harden. The results were disappointing as they held shape well, but were soft and overall just not what I expected. After letting them sit for another afternoon they are more pliable and springy, but still not what I had expected.

What I got from your suggestions is that I should be using a thinner veg tan liner and a heavier chrome tanned outer vamp. I am fuzzy on the process though. How do you case it? What do you mean by this?

How exactly do you construct the toe box? Just from the brief description of your last post it sounds like I should first use a thin 3-ish oz inner liner tacked to the last and then encase that with a heavier leather similar to what I am currently using and cement it to the liner. Skiving the edges is no problem, I have some experience with that and have a good knife for doing so.

What I"m not clear about is what is meant by lasting now. My understanding of lasting was using a pair of pliers/curved lasting pliers to pull the leather taut over the last and then tack the leather to prepare upper and sole to be attached.

I guess basically I am wanting to know how to construct a toe box, and if there are preferred methods for lasting a shoe, and how to construct the upper. I have read a ton of tutorials and watched some videos about lasting the upper once it's made, but have seen very little information about actually putting the upper together and preparing it for lasting.

I have other questions, but this is getting lengthy and perhaps it would be better to save them for when they are more relevant.

Thanks for the help so far! Hope to hear back with more information.

Making boots is fun! But not easy to explain..

Maybe some pics of toe boxes will help? This is the way I was taught..

the toe boxes..

attaching to the boot..

on the boot

adding several layers of celluloid cement (will harden the box)

vamps with lining

vamps with lining + tops

[Norwegian]

Did you see the first topic here on "shoes, boots, sandals and moccassins"? There is an "e-book" that you can download..

[sepulverture]

Norwegian - Thanks for the photos, they did kind of clear up some questions i had in mind. Pictures are worth a thousand words, right? Thanks for the e-book reference, I will check that out too!

Edited September 26, 2010 by sepulverture

[sepulverture]

Just a little update on progress here. I went and bought materials I want to use for the boots. They didn't have all of what was suggested. Unfortunately I was finally able to confirm that most of the leather sold here is chrome tanned. I guess veg tan just isn't in high enough demand here to justify keeping much in stock. Also the selection wasn't ideal in terms of what was available in my budget.

For the lining I ended up getting 1~1.5mm pig skin leather, which is roughly 3~4oz., and for the vamp/counter I ended up getting 5~6oz cowhide, and for the toe boxes and counter inners I have a good supply of 6.5~7oz cow hide left over from previous projects. for the soles I have a large sheet of 16~16.5 oz hardened cowhide, and rubber treads that can be cemented to the bottoms of the soles. For an additional layer of inner lining I have a bolt of fine Chinese silk that I have used to line some bags, and a pair of moccasins I made for a friend, and I also have a sheet of fur-on sheep skin for making a winter insert for the boots.

[Norwegian]

Just a little update on progress here. I went and bought materials I want to use for the boots. They didn't have all of what was suggested. Unfortunately I was finally able to confirm that most of the leather sold here is chrome tanned. I guess veg tan just isn't in high enough demand here to justify keeping much in stock. Also the selection wasn't ideal in terms of what was available in my budget.

For the lining I ended up getting 1~1.5mm pig skin leather, which is roughly 3~4oz., and for the vamp/counter I ended up getting 5~6oz cowhide, and for the toe boxes and counter inners I have a good supply of 6.5~7oz cow hide left over from previous projects. for the soles I have a large sheet of 16~16.5 oz hardened cowhide, and rubber treads that can be cemented to the bottoms of the soles. For an additional layer of inner lining I have a bolt of fine Chinese silk that I have used to line some bags, and a pair of moccasins I made for a friend, and I also have a sheet of fur-on sheep skin for making a winter insert for the boots.

Could I ask for a picture of the Chinese silk?

[sepulverture]

Could I ask for a picture of the Chinese silk?

sure thing. Here is a photo of a pair of decorative bracers I did for a friend of mine. Also included is a pair of moccasin boots I made for the same guy (I don't like the tassels much personally, but then again I'm not the one wearing them).

Edited September 27, 2010 by sepulverture

[Norwegian]

sure thing. Here is a photo of a pair of decorative bracers I did for a friend of mine. Also included is a pair of moccasin boots I made for the same guy (I don't like the tassels much personally, but then again I'm not the one wearing them).

Thank you for the pics!

How does the silk hold over time?

Any news about your boots?

Rik

[sepulverture]

I have lined a pair of small bracers for myself that I keep magnetic key-cards in and small change for paying bicycle park fares and whatnot. I lined these with the same leather, and considering that Beijing summer is just ending which is hot, and dry with some moisture from heavy rainfall every now and then, plus considering all the other odds and ends of leather accessory usage I'd say they have lasted great so far. I have been wearing these for about a year, by the way.

They don't take rubber cement very well however. Any surface I've tacked them down to with rubber cement has seen the silk come unglued shortly after the cement has dried, so really the cement is only good for temp-tacking to hold in place for stitching.

I have run into problems with test lasts of lining leather (pig skin) and toebox leather (6~7oz cow leather). I gave each piece a full skive to a feather point, except the toe box leather i skived to scant edges, about 1 inch allowance on the toe-box, and just on the edges for the lining (since they are so thin anyway).

The problems I am having are that when nailing the pieces to the last wrinkles form along the upper part of the low instep and waist of the last. I have managed to work some of these out by hand, and by repositioning nails on the underside of the last to try to distribute the stretch more evenly. I think part of the problem may be that the stretching is inherently uneven because I don't have counter lining attached, only vamp lining (again, just experimental test lasts to get a feel for my lasts, and understand how to construct toe boxes).

I also realized that I may need a crimp board to help set the shape of the vamp before attempting to last it, and this may help with wrinkling.

Another problem I have is that when I have tried nailing the seam allowances down on the underside of the last that I have ended up with large and very visible creases and wrinkles along the front of the toe, leading to where the vamps are tacked down. The only thing I can figure is that I need to notch the leather before trying to last it and that may alleviate the problem, but I also remember going through picture tutorials on lasting and seeing that the vamps weren't notched before being lasted, and that the guy in the tutorial has no problems lasting without leaving large creases.

I will provide pictures later to help demonstrate my points, I am at work now and don't have access to them. Hopefully some of you may have an idea already about what problems i am talking about and be able to provide some feedback.

[sepulverture]

Well, i figured out a bunch of the problems as I went along with this, and was very pleased with the results. I personally like deep toe boxes, so I made the inner portion of the toe box of a more rigid leather of a heavy-ish weight of about 6.5oz, and covered it with an equally weighted layer of leather that is naturally very pliable. I guess if I were to run the second layer of thick pliable leather around the whole vamp it would be called double vamp, which is great because that's why I want to do with this these boots. Next test I plan to do is with a full vamp+ counter, but no shaft panels or lining.

The thing that is getting my goat a little bit now is when making the insole how to pull of a hold-fast and do the inseaming. I have done inseaming before, but of a totally different style. I am also wondering if anyone knows of any good tutorial on how to do a goodyear welt, or a Norwegian welt.

I'm sure to the more experienced boot makers this job looks rather sloppy, but I think i'm pretty happy with it for having been the first toe-box I've ever made on a last. It turned out very well. If I were to put a vamp cover on over this I think it would look alright. Not perfect of course, that will come with practice, but I'm pleased for the moment.

Edited September 29, 2010 by sepulverture

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

It's Nick, isn't it?

My suggestion is to get done gettin' ready, and get started.

I assume you're still on the Russell Hunting boot style, is that correct? My opinion is that it really is an overly ambitious style with which to start.

Did you get your pattern makers book yet?.

When you do, here's a good first step; after you've made your pattern, make up a fitters model. You'll get lasting practice in 'real time' as it were. Up to now, what you're getting has been good for up to now.

I've attached a picture of a fitters model of the western boots I make. (It's the assembled rough outs)

They are made up of remnant leather, assembled so as to give me the negative space for the last to fill. I usually make them to test the fit before I begin making the boots, but also sometimes as a pattern test.

If you wanted to practice toe boxes, you could properly install remant leather liners (I guess that would be good practice too), and pull it over your last.

Do you need to know the sequence of your "drafts"?

That may need to be another lesson.

I'd strongly recommend DW Frommer's book ofnthe Western Packers for instruction in assembly fundaments. He works with the Geometric Method of pattern making, as opposed to choices elsewhere.

http://www.bootmaker.com/dwswb.htm

For the fitters for your Hunting Boot design, you'd have your quarters and vamp stitched together, and then pull that over your last with insole attached..

(You could wait to make your smaller pattern pieces later, unless you want to practice that now too, of course.

Moving forward in small steps is not a bad idea by any means. Just don't get discouraged. This is a very long process that only gets some quicker. Remember there's more to it than meets the eye.)

You need to make your tries with the work that has proceeded the step you're practicing, if you know what I mean.

FYI, I often use skirting leather scraps for the counters in my fitters. I don't know if the style you'll be making will want 'stitched in' counters, or "pocket" counters, probably the latter. DW's method, which I use, has 'stitched in'.

I guess we can talk about that as we get there.

I've looked thru most all the pictures on my computer, and I don't see any for lasting as instructional images.

The best I can do is the next three attached.

They are;

1. tops and vamps are ready to be side seamed,

2.treed prior to being lasted, and

3.lasted....

everything but the actual lasting..

I would be pleased to help with building a holdfast on your insole for inseaming when you're ready, (and I have many pictures of that)

but my suggestion is to let your fitter be cement constructed..

Veldtshoen (sp?) or Norwegian Welt, is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. And one for an advanced class.

Do you know of Sharon Raymongs book Simple Shoes? Check this out also:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1579903789

Have you spent any time on this web site yet? No boot/shoe making study should be without it.

http://www.thehcc.org/

You'll find all this and more discussed in spades, but patience, it takes awhile to find it.

I'll stop here and give you a chance to reply...

[sepulverture]

Nick,

It's Nick, isn't it?

My suggestion is to get done gettin' ready, and get started.

I assume you're still on the Russell Hunting boot style, is that correct? My opinion is that it really is an overly ambitious style with which to start.

Did you get your pattern makers book yet?.

When you do, here's a good first step; after you've made your pattern, make up a fitters model. You'll get lasting practice in 'real time' as it were. Up to now, what you're getting has been good for up to now.

I've attached a picture of a fitters model of the western boots I make. (It's the assembled rough outs)

They are made up of remnant leather, assembled so as to give me the negative space for the last to fill. I usually make them to test the fit before I begin making the boots, but also sometimes as a pattern test.

If you wanted to practice toe boxes, you could properly install remant leather liners (I guess that would be good practice too), and pull it over your last.

Do you need to know the sequence of your "drafts"?

That may need to be another lesson.

I'd strongly recommend DW Frommer's book ofnthe Western Packers for instruction in assembly fundaments. He works with the Geometric Method of pattern making, as opposed to choices elsewhere.

http://www.bootmaker.com/dwswb.htm

For the fitters for your Hunting Boot design, you'd have your quarters and vamp stitched together, and then pull that over your last with insole attached..

(You could wait to make your smaller pattern pieces later, unless you want to practice that now too, of course.

Moving forward in small steps is not a bad idea by any means. Just don't get discouraged. This is a very long process that only gets some quicker. Remember there's more to it than meets the eye.)

You need to make your tries with the work that has proceeded the step you're practicing, if you know what I mean.

FYI, I often use skirting leather scraps for the counters in my fitters. I don't know if the style you'll be making will want 'stitched in' counters, or "pocket" counters, probably the latter. DW's method, which I use, has 'stitched in'.

I guess we can talk about that as we get there.

I've looked thru most all the pictures on my computer, and I don't see any for lasting as instructional images.

The best I can do is the next three attached.

They are;

1. tops and vamps are ready to be side seamed,

2.treed prior to being lasted, and

3.lasted....

everything but the actual lasting..

I would be pleased to help with building a holdfast on your insole for inseaming when you're ready, (and I have many pictures of that)

but my suggestion is to let your fitter be cement constructed..

Veldtshoen (sp?) or Norwegian Welt, is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. And one for an advanced class.

Do you know of Sharon Raymongs book Simple Shoes? Check this out also:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1579903789

Have you spent any time on this web site yet? No boot/shoe making study should be without it.

http://www.thehcc.org/

You'll find all this and more discussed in spades, but patience, it takes awhile to find it.

I'll stop here and give you a chance to reply...

Paul,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and yes the name is Nick, or Nicholas if you prefer (I have no qualms either way).

First I need to point out that none of the images attached are showing up, I have no idea why so I'm afraid some of your points didn't quite come out. Perhaps reattaching the images will resolve that problem. To answer two of your questions in one go I decided not to go with the Russel Hunting boot for my first go. I can understand how you'd think it to be too ambitious a project to try right out of the gate (although to be quite frank I enjoy taking on overly ambitious first attempts on things. I think I learn a lot about myself in the process), but in the interest of saving time, headaches and money on wasted leather I decided to go with a comparatively simple British paratroopers boot with belted shaft cover (image attached at the end of message, black and white). I decided for the entire upper to be one large piece with a counter piece attached to the outside to reinforce the heel. And to be honest I'm not sure i know what a pattern makers model is.

Unfortunately I'm working with relatively limited supplies, since cordwaining is not that hot of a trade here. It has a huge market in this city for shoe and boot makers, but not many people practice here so tools are not easy to come by. I made a crimping board the other day with a hack-saw and a bamboo kitchen cutting board that I picked up at a local farmers co-op, and it works alright for my purposes. But no pattern makers model.

Without the attached pictures I can only assume what you mean by the fitters model, but just from what you've said I'm assuming it's a mock-up of the intended boot using scrap leather just to test the fit, so that any changes that need to be made to the patterns can be made without wasting good leather.

Thinking about it I do believe I have a fitter in the works. I think this is ultimately what all these pieces are going towards. I used the toe-box to check the fit on my foot, and found it to be good as I type this I've cut a liner of soft pig skin that is mulling right now and waiting to be lasted. I have no qualms with the insole for the fitter being cemented. My only concern when it comes to the actual product is that Beijing's run off after rains can be mildly corrosive to cements and leather if it soaks in good, thanks to all the pollution, so I am adamant about good strong welting of some sort. I also need to practice pegging my heel stacks, for the same reason. Back to the fitter though. I am planning to last the liner tonight and let it sit overnight and tomorrow cut out an upper, get it mulled and stretch it over my crimping board, while that's curing I plan to do everything for the heel, and on sunday get it all lasted together, then when that's cured and dried to slip my foot in and check it out. If I'm pleased with that then move forward from there.

Regarding the Norwegian welt, I am vaguely familiar with it. I have the method for doing the actual stitching down pat, I've used it a lot on other things I've made (bags, decorative items).

I think I know the sequence for tacking down the drafts. If memory serves it should be a couple around the toe, then behind the ball then fill in the rest of the forepart, then proceed to the rear. I have had a little trouble with chasing the tunnels from the sides of the last down to the underside of the last, but I think I'm figuring that out a little as i go.

As for the HCC, yes I have checked out the site several times. I even considered purchasing a membership, but before I do I need to make a few pairs of shoes and consider how far I want to take this. As things stand now this is shaping up to be something I want to take out of the realm of hobbying and take it to higher places and possibly make a living from it after a few more years of experience. As is there is a bit of demand for my bags being generated around the fashion circles in the city thanks to some tailor friends of mine helping advertise my work, but shoes and boots is a whole different ballpark. Once I've settled on a decision I'll decide on purchasing a membership or not. But yes, it is going to need patience as I didn't have a whole lot of luck navigating the site.

I'll give you a chance to respond before this post turns into a novel.

Thanks again, looking forward to your reply,

Nick

Edited October 1, 2010 by sepulverture

[Leatherimages]

I've reattached the pictures as you have done, and they should show at the bottom of this post.

These are all pull ons, and I acknowledge you are making a lace up. Sorry, I just don't have any pictures of lace ups in process.

I like challenges too, believe me, but encourageing smaller steps will take you further. I respect your efforts

It sounds like you have it right about lasting draft sequence,

You also have it right about the fitters model, and it will serve as a pattern test also.

In the Paratrooper boot you are showing, the quarters would have the tongue and counter attached,

(for a fitter you wo uld not need to do a counter cover, unless you were insisting on a "pocket" counter.)

Then the vamp and lining would be installed, then lasted and allowed to dry. The tacks at the toe would be released and the vamp pulled back to install the toe boxes. Then the vamp would be pulled over and cemented to the insole. That would be your pattern/fitters modelwith extra credit for the toe box practice.

I understand what you're saying about your environmental conditions leading your choices about inseam construction. Wow. So yeah, a hand stitched inseam with holdfast would indeed be best for you at this time.

We can do that in it's turn. But I've attached a picture just to feed your imaginings. This is for a box toe, one that is squared across the front by a turn up on the insole. it's not really what you're likely to do, but it's the picture I have of the sculpted insole at this stage.

Paul

Edited October 1, 2010 by Leatherimages

[sepulverture]

Thanks Paul for the attached images. They have indeed fed my imagination a bit. Your example of the holdfast is considerably different from what I originally pictured, but it makes sense I think. Do you have any other photos of inseaming you could share?

I think I have a good idea what you're talking about the whole lasting process, and in fact this morning I put together a fitters model to test part of my pattern (I haven't got the whole pattern worked out yet, because I don't quite understand the whole process of measuring and whatnot yet, kind of figuring that out as I go right now). I also used the toe box that I made the other day with this fitters model just to see how it feels. I think my last may actually be a bit too long, but will see when the fitter is done.

I did check out the sites you recommended, and saw the books you suggested. They do look like something I ought to be getting and studying and I intend to do so.

I am assuming that when you say "pocket construction" regarding the boots I intend to make that you are meaning the vamp and counter are in fact one piece stitched together along the back of the heel. This is what I'm currently intending, since it seems to be the easiest design to work with at the moment. Also i have a pair of Belleville Gore-Tex combat boots that have this construction, and I like their look and feel a lot.

I have taken step-by-step photos of what I am currently trying out on my last, which I will post up probably tonight or tomorrow. Based on these pictures you may be able to have an idea of the direction I am intending to take with these boots.

One question I have right off of my head is that when mentioning a 'stitched in' lining do you mean that each piece of the outter (shaft, vamp, counter pieces) each have their own piece of lining stitched directly to them, and the "pocket" lining refers to larger sheets of lining that would cover all the seams from the inside? If this is in fact your meaning I am currently planning to do a "stitched" lining.

[Leatherimages]

Do you have any other photos of inseaming you could share?

I don't really. That will be something I'll be adding to my library of pictures in the pairs ahead. But there are great tutorials on the Crispin Colloquy.

I think I have a good idea what you're talking about the whole lasting process, and in fact this morning I put together a fitters model to test part of my pattern (I haven't got the whole pattern worked out yet, because I don't quite understand the whole process of measuring and whatnot yet, kind of figuring that out as I go right now). I also used the toe box that I made the other day with this fitters model just to see how it feels. I think my last may actually be a bit too long, but will see when the fitter is done.

You really need to get your patterns worked out to know anything about your fit. The subject of fit is so complex, I don't know how it would go, trying to do it by these kinds of posts.

DW says, "Learning to make boots is a matter of muscel memory, learning to fit is a life long study".

You really need to get involved with the Cordwainers thru the Crispin Colloquy and tap that world wide resourse. I could direct you some to help you learn your way around the site.

I am assuming that when you say "pocket construction" regarding the boots I intend to make that you are meaning the vamp and counter are in fact one piece stitched together along the back of the heel. This is what I'm currently intending, since it seems to be the easiest design to work with at the moment. Also i have a pair of Belleville Gore-Tex combat boots that have this construction, and I like their look and feel a lot.

I have taken step-by-step photos of what I am currently trying out on my last, which I will post up probably tonight or tomorrow. Based on these pictures you may be able to have an idea of the direction I am intending to take with these boots.

One question I have right off of my head is that when mentioning a 'stitched in' lining do you mean that each piece of the outter (shaft, vamp, counter pieces) each have their own piece of lining stitched directly to them, and the "pocket" lining refers to larger sheets of lining that would cover all the seams from the inside? If this is in fact your meaning I am currently planning to do a "stitched" lining.

No, I'm referring to a pocket counter, as opposed to a stitched-in counter.

In a pocket counter construction, the counter, or heel stiffener, is between two layers, like in a pocket.

It may be between the quarters and a counter cover, with the quarters extending all the way down to the heel seat, serving as a "liner",

then the counter in the "pocket", and then a cover stitched to the outside, looking much as your Russell illustration shows.

Or there may be a lining for the quaters, with the counter between these layers.

In a stitched-in counter, the pattern for the quarters would be drafted with a void drawn in where the counter would be stitched in. Then the counter cover would be applied over that.

The advantage of the stitched-in counter, where it may be possible to do this on any given style, is that the counter leather, which is usually something like 10-12 ounce veg, will be much longer lasting than any lining leather. I've seen many a hole in liners in the heel area from wear, but practically never in a stitch-in counter, such as cowboy boots have.

Of course I'm interested to see your work, it will be very helpful for commenting.

As for linings, different constructions and different sewing machines will sometimes dictate how you'll go about doing your linings. But one thing to remember as a handmaker, you always want to think out ahead 15-30 years, for in the event that the boot comes back for repair. How possible it might be, may depend on how you chose to construct it.

Paul

[sepulverture]

Paul,

I have been going through the Crispin Colloquy the last few days, checking out the gallery images and searching out book references, especially pdf or otherwise downloadable books or videos since shipping is rather prohibitive where I am. I have registered there and just waiting for my information to be processed before I may begin posting there. I did check out their open forum and you were absolutely right. There is a tremendous wealth of information to be found there, but it is a little on the unusual side for navigating, but nothing that can't be adjusted to.

I understand what you mean about the pocket construction completely now. Basically that would be making the heel the same way the toe box is made, sandwiching the stiffener material between two other layers of material. This is what I intended to do when doing the heel construction.

Before reading much up on the subject I had planned to make the heel by using a heavier leather, although I wasn't sure what weight (your suggestion on weight was helpful, thanks), and placing it between the liner and counter cover, but reading your description of what a stitched-in counter is it makes a lot of sense. My only question regarding that would be comfort. I suppose it wouldn't matter much since there isn't a lot of downward weight being applied to the counter while a person walks, but would a stitched in counter cradle the heel the same way a cushioned or padded heel would? Is it as comfortable to wear?

I understand your comment regarding thinking into the future life of the boot to determine how plausible different patterns and schemes for linings might be. I don't have a sewing machine, and don't plan on stumping up for one until I am more certain of the direction I want to take my work in, so I will have to see about that. Therefore since all my work will be hand stitched I guess I need to think carefully about where and how to apply the lining.

I have also tried my hand ad sculpting a holdfast, which i will post up later on.

[sepulverture]

This reply is a bit late in coming, but I've been rather busy this past week.

It has been the Chinese "National Day" here, kind of like our independence day back in the States, and I was busy with obligatory things here and there, and went camping over the weekend.

(incidentally the Chinese countryside is very beautiful and clean, unlike the cities, perfect place to recharge the batteries of a small towner who somewhat homesick)

I watched the videos made by Marcell over at the Crispin Colloquy on the HCC, and they were very insightful. Also after observing the photos you posted at the beginning of this page demonstrating what a holdfast ought to look like I tried sculpting my own. For lacking a lot of information on exactly how one is made I think it turned out ok for just a tester, and I learned a lot from it. I also watched just about all of the other videos (except one talking about metal plates on the last, since my last is all plastic I didn't think it was relevant right now). It really was an extremely worthwhile endeavor to join and nav the forums.

Unfortunately when I made this holdfast I was using just a straight awl, since I was lacking the curved spade-headed awls commonly demonstrated in all the videos. Because of this it created a lot of upward tension while holing the holdfast, and the awl tore right through a few of them. After I finished holing though I realized this just isn't going to work, so I set about making more proper awls (since they aren't available in any of the leather stores that I'm aware of here).

I did this by taking an appropriately sized Allen wrench, and cold hammering it flat, and then cold hammering one end of the wrench into a rough spade shape, then using a rotary drill with a small metal grinding attachment and shaped it as well as I could then used the handle of a pair of steel dumb bells that I have to make the curve shape. Then I just used a retractable awl haft that I have been using for other things. It's a bit rough at the moment, so it catches a little bit when holing with it, but I found that applying a layer of bees wax, and a layer of dubbin on top of the bees wax it glides through alright.

[Leatherimages]

Wow, Good on you. You're very ingenious. I'm sure it's a matter of neccessity, but you seem to have what it takes.

You've done a fantastic job for your first go at the insole, for not having anyone standing over your shoulder. Very good! I'll share a few things on what you've shown.

You'll want to work out as much of the roughness as possible on your curved awl. Useing finer and finer grits of wet/dry sand paper and polishing the blade with jewlers rouge will work out the scratches and burrs, and it will slide through the holdfast much easier.

The beeswax is good, and will burnish your hole in preparation for stitching later.

The edge of the insole is called the feather, and the distance from the feather to the holdfast should be equal to the combined thickness of your vamp and linings. Your hold fast ought to be about 6mm wide. Space your holes about 3 to the inch. This will sometimes mean that at the inside of the curve of the toe, they may need to be closer together than that, and you might need to come through the holdfast at an angle, spacing your entry hole so you don't break through when inseaming. Also you'll want to keep in mind that the welt will be too loose if your spacing is greater than 3 to the inch at the feather edge.

You're doing great. I'm glad you spent sometime on the Colloquy. I'm a boot maker and not as versed in all the shoe making points as Masters such as Marcel can share. If you ever have a chance to take one of his workshops, you will be miles ahead of me.

The countryside there in China is indeed very beautiful. Earth is a great place, isn't it?

Keep up the good work.

[sepulverture]

Wow, Good on you. You're very ingenious. I'm sure it's a matter of neccessity, but you seem to have what it takes.

You've done a fantastic job for your first go at the insole, for not having anyone standing over your shoulder. Very good! I'll share a few things on what you've shown.

You'll want to work out as much of the roughness as possible on your curved awl. Useing finer and finer grits of wet/dry sand paper and polishing the blade with jewlers rouge will work out the scratches and burrs, and it will slide through the holdfast much easier.

The beeswax is good, and will burnish your hole in preparation for stitching later.

The edge of the insole is called the feather, and the distance from the feather to the holdfast should be equal to the combined thickness of your vamp and linings. Your hold fast ought to be about 6mm wide. Space your holes about 3 to the inch. This will sometimes mean that at the inside of the curve of the toe, they may need to be closer together than that, and you might need to come through the holdfast at an angle, spacing your entry hole so you don't break through when inseaming. Also you'll want to keep in mind that the welt will be too loose if your spacing is greater than 3 to the inch at the feather edge.

You're doing great. I'm glad you spent sometime on the Colloquy. I'm a boot maker and not as versed in all the shoe making points as Masters such as Marcel can share. If you ever have a chance to take one of his workshops, you will be miles ahead of me.

The countryside there in China is indeed very beautiful. Earth is a great place, isn't it?

Keep up the good work.

Paul,

Thanks for the compliments on my work. I didn't actually make the curved awl until I was nigh on finished with my first attempt at the holdfast. Up until that point I was using a straight awl (saddlers awl?). This second time around I used the curved awl that I made (pictured in last post) and a shorter curved awl which has a much more accelerated curve. Both of them glided right through the leather when I used a little bees wax as a lubricant. They do still catch and could be a lot smoother, so I've taken them to the sanding paper and done what I can with what I have. The result is satisfactory for the time being.

I think I more or less got a handle on the holdfast, not perfect but that will come with practice.

Now I am moving on towards getting ideas and whatnot for making patterns. I am at the point where I am mostly wondering how to go about taking measurements, and deciding on sizes and everything for my patterns. The boot I have in mind is a fairly simple one, basically just four pieces each for the uppers linings and covers. Vamp and counter cover being one continuous piece that is stitched together behind the heel, and stiffened with a counter, and something like another cover sewn up the heel and spine of the boot to seal the rear of the shaft and counter cover seam. The shaft will be divided into two halves and they'll meet in the front on the instep/high instep where they will be laced/belted together. I plan to have a zipper running up the side on the inside, although I'm not totally sure about this because it would compromise water proofing a little bit, although the quick on/off is something I have enjoyed in all the boots I've purchased in the last few years.

Considering that these will be fully hand-sewn, since I don't have a machine (and want to develop a reputation as doing fully hand-stitched work) I am thinking a lot about how the patter should be arrange, how much seam allowance to give, and the construction of the lining.

I am also giving your stitched-in counter suggestion serious though. I think that the pocket counter would be easier, and I am not expecting a whole lot out of these since they are after all only my first pair of boots made in this style, but I am also thinking I ought to be establishing as many good habits as I can from the get-go.

Here are a few photos of my second attempt at a holdfast. I am not sure about the spacing, I was just eye-balling it, and the lack of rulers that are demarcated with standard American inches makes it more difficult. Knowing that an inch is roughly 2.5cm though I checked it out with my cm based rulers and it seems to work out to roughly 3 to the inch, although around the toe and heel the spacing becomes kind of uneven. Even so it ought to work out ok.

[Leatherimages]

Nick, my apologies for not replying sooner. It's hard for me to bring my full attention to the keyboard, especially when my wife is home. But bless her heart, I'm a boot maker by her grace,

I like your progress. It's good to have those two differnt degrees of curve in your awls.

In time, their specific differences will become manifest, and you'll appreciate them anew,

if you know what I mean, jelly bean.

I think I more or less got a handle on the holdfast, not perfect but that will come with practice.

The only point I'll make here is that you want to be careful to maintain an even 1.5 to 2 mm thichness on the feather edge. Too much thinner than that, in the wrong spot around the perimeter of the insole, can create a knife edge, if sweat should dry and stiffen the insole.

And that's also why the "old dead guys", who wrote the "How to's" in the 19th Cenury, recommended brushing on repeated applications of Tallow, or rendered fat. Get the point?

Now I am moving on towards getting ideas and whatnot for making patterns. I am at the point where I am mostly wondering how to go about taking measurements, and deciding on sizes and everything for my patterns. The boot I have in mind is a fairly simple one, basically just four pieces each for the uppers linings and covers. Vamp and counter cover being one continuous piece that is stitched together behind the heel, and stiffened with a counter, and something like another cover sewn up the heel and spine of the boot to seal the rear of the shaft and counter cover seam. The shaft will be divided into two halves and they'll meet in the front on the instep/high instep where they will be laced/belted together. I plan to have a zipper running up the side on the inside, although I'm not totally sure about this because it would compromise water proofing a little bit, although the quick on/off is something I have enjoyed in all the boots I've purchased in the last few years.

Now you're talking about a system. A system of measuring, pattern making and the tricky part, order of assembly. This is the fundamentals. It will be much easier for me to comment, when I know which or whose's system you're talking about.

Did you get the Pattern Makers book from Nobel Press? It's value is tremendous from this point.

The style you are describing is fundamentaly a Balmoral Style. There are specific drawings, and lines that are necessary for this style to be viable. (Frank discusses the Balmoral in the text mentioned above.) I'm extremely interested in this style myself, and want to try my hand at it sometime. But there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't really know where the challenging parts are but DW, who has made several, himself feels there's still more to figure out about how to control the fit and function in the patterning process. Knowing where the controls are is critical to understanding patterns for footwear also.

Using the tape method of pattern making, will give you a chance to draw the pattern lines for the stlye you're considering.

A zipper could have a tongue to help with water resistance at that point.

Considering that these will be fully hand-sewn, since I don't have a machine (and want to develop a reputation as doing fully hand-stitched work) I am thinking a lot about how the patter should be arrange, how much seam allowance to give, and the construction of the lining.

Until we identify more about your pattern parts, I'll only comment on the insole, before we get any further away from it.

On the insoles you've shown 'til now, you have made your holdfast go all the way around the heel. This is a method that does indeed have it's applications, like in European dress shoes. It's a classic.

But not in work or outdoor boots in my opinion. I've seen many fault at the stitches around the heel. They break from exposure to many different elements. This style has a weakness at a critical spot. The heel of the foot flexes away from the heel of the boot with the greatest force at this point, where these stitches are all that's holding it together. My suggestion would be to plan on turning under; the lining, counter, and heel cover, and tackng it with either brass clinching nails, maybe wood pegs, or lastly iron clinching nails.

I've been giving your suggestion of a stitched-in counter suggestion serious though. I think that the pocket counter would be easier, and I am not expecting a whole lot out of these since they are after all only my first pair of boots made in this style, but I am also thinking I ought to be establishing as many good habits as I can from the get-go.

It's likely the choice will be obvious when pattern making begins. But with a "hung lining", ie. one stitched at the top line and extending all the way to the insole, utilizing a "pocket counter", one just should be conscious to select leather for the greatest wear.

Here are a few photos of my second attempt at a holdfast. I am not sure about the spacing, I was just eye-balling it, and the lack of rulers that are demarcated with standard American inches makes it more difficult. Knowing that an inch is roughly 2.5cm though I checked it out with my cm based rulers and it seems to work out to roughly 3 to the inch, although around the toe and heel the spacing becomes kind of uneven. Even so it ought to work out ok.

Your spacing looks pretty good. DW showed me to do this. Take a narrow gauge nail about 1 1/4" long and bend it. And like cribbage, move it along after you make each hole. It will serve as a point of reference as you try to get the feel for "3 to the inch".

Or use a marker along the ouside of the holdfast until eye begins to know it. From the apex of the curve of your toe, angle the path of the awl away from the center and not in towards it. If you do this about an inch and a half back from the middle, you'll have plenty of room for your awl holes there at the toe.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Leatherimages

[sepulverture]

Nick, my apologies for not replying sooner. It's hard for me to bring my full attention to the keyboard, especially when my wife is home. But bless her heart, I'm a boot maker by her grace,

No worries, we all have lives and things to attend to beyond the forums. I am also not replying to your posts as quickly as I ought to (considering that you are taking a fair bit of your personal time to help me in my journey here). You are definitely right about one thing here. It is often by the good grace of others that we may pursue our ambitions (give her a big thanks from me! haha).

I like your progress. It's good to have those two differnt degrees of curve in your awls.

In time, their specific differences will become manifest, and you'll appreciate them anew,

if you know what I mean, jelly bean.

Yes I can see your point entirely. they have already proven to be useful in their own applications. The only point I'll make here is that you want to be careful to maintain an even 1.5 to 2 mm thichness on the feather edge. Too much thinner than that, in the wrong spot around the perimeter of the insole, can create a knife edge, if sweat should dry and stiffen the insole.

And that's also why the "old dead guys", who wrote the "How to's" in the 19th Cenury, recommended brushing on repeated applications of Tallow, or rendered fat. Get the point?

Yes the point is well taken. That's what the dubbin is basically, just a big slop of tallow that is orange and smells pretty. I was always curious about the feather edge, because it never really occurred to me why a full feather would be useful in this situation. I will keep a couple millimeters thickness on them. Now you're talking about a system. A system of measuring, pattern making and the tricky part, order of assembly. This is the fundamentals. It will be much easier for me to comment, when I know which or whose's system you're talking about.

Did you get the Pattern Makers book from Nobel Press? It's value is tremendous from this point.

The style you are describing is fundamentaly a Balmoral Style. There are specific drawings, and lines that are necessary for this style to be viable. (Frank discusses the Balmoral in the text mentioned above.) I'm extremely interested in this style myself, and want to try my hand at it sometime. But there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't really know where the challenging parts are but DW, who has made several, himself feels there's still more to figure out about how to control the fit and function in the patterning process. Knowing where the controls are is critical to understanding patterns for footwear also.

Using the tape method of pattern making, will give you a chance to draw the pattern lines for the stlye you're considering.

Unfortunately I have no idea about the different systems. I did a quick search for the patter makers book you are referencing here, but didn't come up with any useful results right away. I do have just about all of the videos available on the HCC, but none of them cover anything about patter making. Do you happen to have the authors name of the Pattern Makers Book? Regarding the style I suppose you could call it a balmoral style that I want to make, although with modifications (although looking at them it appears that the basic construction would be the same). Could you give me a breakdown of the 'tape method' of pattern making? Until we identify more about your pattern parts, I'll only comment on the insole, before we get any further away from it.

On the insoles you've shown 'til now, you have made your holdfast go all the way around the heel. This is a method that does indeed have it's applications, like in European dress shoes. It's a classic.

But not in work or outdoor boots in my opinion. I've seen many fault at the stitches around the heel. They break from exposure to many different elements. This style has a weakness at a critical spot. The heel of the foot flexes away from the heel of the boot with the greatest force at this point, where these stitches are all that's holding it together. My suggestion would be to plan on turning under; the lining, counter, and heel cover, and tackng it with either brass clinching nails, maybe wood pegs, or lastly iron clinching nails.

I understand all you've said here. I was thinking about a lot of 'what if the stitches were to tear through the holdfast?' kind of questions, and I think I came up with a variety of possibilities. One idea I had was very simply to stitch the upper to the outside and inside of holdfast, so that the upper would be folded over the holdfast, and using the awl make holes on both sides of the holdfast, and run the thread through vamp(inside) - holdfast - vamp(outside) - welt (if what I just described to you makes sense), and then using some method (pegs, nails, or stitching) to fasten the upper to a thicker part of the insole on the inside of the holdfast somewhere. I also had the idea of making the insole two pieces. The thick heavy sole-leather material, and a second layer of vamp leather material sandwiched between that and the last which would be stitched together after the holdfast was made (so the holdfast is sculpted, removed from the last where the vamp material is applied to the upper side of the insole where the foot would rest, and then stitched together or cemented together). That way when the clinching nails, or stitching, or whatever would be done was done it would have that extra layer of unskived/unsculted leather to hold on to for added strength. These are just ideas though and I'm not sure how viable they are, although in theory I think they would work.

It's likely the choice will be obvious when pattern making begins. But with a "hung lining", ie. one stitched at the top line and extending all the way to the insole, utilizing a "pocket counter", one just should be conscious to select leather for the greatest wear.

I understand what you're saying about this as well, and this may ultimately be what I end up doing. I did think about stitching the counter directly to the lining after it was cemented, but that would require me removing it from the last which adds a whole bunch of possibilities to screw things up, so I am apprehensive about doing these. My lining though ought to be sufficient (at least for a first pair of boots). The lining material is roughly 1.5-2mm top grain, so it ought to be ok, right?

Your spacing looks pretty good. DW showed me to do this. Take a narrow gauge nail about 1 1/4" long and bend it. And like cribbage, move it along after you make each hole. It will serve as a point of reference as you try to get the feel for "3 to the inch".

Or use a marker along the ouside of the holdfast until eye begins to know it. From the apex of the curve of your toe, angle the path of the awl away from the center and not in towards it. If you do this about an inch and a half back from the middle, you'll have plenty of room for your awl holes there at the toe.

I think I got the picture with what you're saying here, and I will try to remember these points when making my next holdfast. The cribbage pin idea is good also, and seems like it would be faster than marking out individual locations with a marker and measuring tape.

I am trying to find information about patter making, and giving this a lot of thought before moving forward. I am not afraid of making mistakes, because after all this is my first pair of boots made in this style and mistakes are to be expected. It would be a miracle if none were made and they turned out all fancy and beautiful, but being something of a pragmatist I know this is not going to be the case from the outset. I just don't want to turn this dead mammals sacrificed skin into a pile of junk however, and feel it should be well thought through before cutting much more out of the hide.

If you can provide me with the name of the author of the pattern makers book, or an amazon.com link (or a link to a downloadable pdf would be infinitely preferable since shipping is going to be a killer) then I can thumb through that and make better informed decisions regarding all of this.

On the other hand I am really considering just throwing caution to the wind, and making a best guess set of patterns, stitching it all together and throwing it on the last to see what I come up with.

Anyway thanks Paul for your time and help so far, I am looking forward to your next reply, and perhaps by then I'll have made up a fitters model to see where this is going.

Nick

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

Whew! I'm afraid I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the length of our posts. We've got to do shorter ones, I'm startin' to get lost.

Pattern Cutting-Step by Step Patterns for Footwear, edited by Frank Jones, (I mentioned in your other thread about Sheep Hunters boots)

Also I highly recommend Tim Skrym's book Bespoke Shoemaking, both are available here:

http://www.shoemakingbook.com/

(We're all together in this , you know)

You've demonsrated a skill at thinking things through, I'm really very impressed. But if you want to be successful in this effort, I believe you must follow the path of those who have gone before.

I'll be of little help if you want to create a whole new way.

(I don't know how much more help I can be, as it it is. But I am willing to help if you're will to get these text books.)

I would not have a thing to say about your own ideas about stitching the inseam like you're thinking. I can only imagine problems.

Many many shoes and boots, have been being made by hand by many many different people for many many years.

What works is what works. Learn the fundamental ways to do it, and then, after totally understanding how, then you can begin to "play in the field of possibilities".

We'll keep it going. This is being good for me too.