Advice On Lasting Boots

[sepulverture]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

[Norwegian]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

Would love to try to help you out!

Could you please be a little more specific on what you want to know? Is it the toe that's the problem? Do you want help with making a toe box? Lasting? Or are you thinkng about the whole boot? I don't think the thing with boiling water will work here..

Rik

[Leatherimages]

I recently made some test attempts at lasting using some junk leather left over from past projects, and was fairly successful in getting them to shape properly, and whatnot.

I had problems with the firmness of the leather though.

The leather in question is roughly 6-7oz or so, full grain, and I am having trouble getting it to harden properly.

I had read articles on hardening leather before, and have successfully hardened leather in the past using near-boiling water.

I wet lasted the leather, stretching it over the last after dampening it with cool water, and then once the leather was in place I poured boiling water over it evenly and slowly to try to get it to harden. The shape held fine, but when pressure was applied to it after taking it off the last it immediately collapsed, and needed me to push it back out into shape.

How can I successfully harden the leather to make a hard toed boot?

I also tried tooling it with a hammer while on the last to compress the fibers and try to make it harder that way, but with little luck.

Any help would be appreciated.

There really are alot of unknowns in what you've got going on here. I don't know where you're starting from, or whose method you're working with. But I'll offer what I can.

First it sounds like you may be using veg tan, if you're 'trying to tool it with a hammer on the last'. Actually, veg will make for a very stiff foot once you've got it lasted.

It would not be a very comfortable boot, and not really for first timers or unguided. Chrome would be better. Your 6-7 ounce is very heavy, and you don't say anything about lining leather.

I don't know it this will address your issues, but try this next time.

Use 3-4 ounce vamp chrome tanned vamp leather, and 3-4 ounce vamp lining leather. Before lasting, soaking it in warm water for an hour or so. This is mostly to soften the veg tanned counter, which you don't say anything about.

So after lasting, and allowing the boot to dry on the last for several days (depending on the humidity in your area), take the vamp loose at the toe only, leaving the lining still in place. Now install your toe box. The toe box is what makes a hard toe, and is it's own lesson with several choices. Briefly, use 6.5 ounce veg, skived at the edge. Once it's cased, installed and allowed to sit for anouther day or two, shape and harden with celluloid cement. Once that's hardened under several coats, pull the toe of your vamp back over it all. Now you'd be ready to inseam, and pull the last.

This probably raises more questions than answers, but there you go.

As my first teacher used to always say, 'there's more to it than meets the eye'.

[sepulverture]

There really are alot of unknowns in what you've got going on here. I don't know where you're starting from, or whose method you're working with. But I'll offer what I can.

First it sounds like you may be using veg tan, if you're 'trying to tool it with a hammer on the last'. Actually, veg will make for a very stiff foot once you've got it lasted.

It would not be a very comfortable boot, and not really for first timers or unguided. Chrome would be better. Your 6-7 ounce is very heavy, and you don't say anything about lining leather.

I don't know it this will address your issues, but try this next time.

Use 3-4 ounce vamp chrome tanned vamp leather, and 3-4 ounce vamp lining leather. Before lasting, soaking it in warm water for an hour or so. This is mostly to soften the veg tanned counter, which you don't say anything about.

So after lasting, and allowing the boot to dry on the last for several days (depending on the humidity in your area), take the vamp loose at the toe only, leaving the lining still in place. Now install your toe box. The toe box is what makes a hard toe, and is it's own lesson with several choices. Briefly, use 6.5 ounce veg, skived at the edge. Once it's cased, installed and allowed to sit for anouther day or two, shape and harden with celluloid cement. Once that's hardened under several coats, pull the toe of your vamp back over it all. Now you'd be ready to inseam, and pull the last.

This probably raises more questions than answers, but there you go.

As my first teacher used to always say, 'there's more to it than meets the eye'.

Thanks Norwegian and L.I. for the prompt reples!

Basically I am trying to construct a toe-box. What I am attempting to make is a double vamped outdoors boot, but before trying to make the boot I need to work out the problems I've been having with lasting.

I believe the leather is veg tanned, although I'm not sure. Unfortunately I live in China, and since Chinese is my second language I've had some trouble getting some of the related jargon down in Chinese. I think it's veg tanned though because if you take a nick out of the leather with a knife you can see that it is colored through all layers of the fiber, which I was told at one point is a characteristic of veg tanned leather, but I can't be sure.

Basically I am teaching myself at the moment for lack of a mentor, although I have hung around some of the cordwainers shops (which are few and far between). Some of them have been gracious enough to let me hang around and look over their shoulder, but most of the shoes I have seen have been purely cemented constructions, which is not what I was wanting to do. Regardless of the method I have learned a lot, but have only been able to wander in and watch them at whatever stage of construction they happened to be at at that moment.

With regards to lining leathers, basically i have none right now. I realized that I will need several layers of lighter weight leather, or a lighter weight leather combined with the heavier leather. The main goal of these experiments was to get a better grasp of the lasting process so that when I begin actual work on my boots the result will be better.

I actually have no counter on the last, since I was only intending to practice stretch and hardening leather on the last, and didn't want to cut any new sheets until I was closer to being ready for a full undertaking.

What I did was took a piece of scrap leather (I think veg tan 6~7oz) and stretched it over the last after soaking it in cool water for about 15 minutes, tacked it to the last starting under the tip of the toe, and pulled and tacked around the edges until it was taut and even over the last, and let it dry. When it was dry I poured two gallons (roughly) worth of near-boiling water over it following the method used for cuir bouilli leather hardening with boiling water which got me almost no results on this occasion, although I have achieved very good results on different items. After the boiled water treatment I let them sit overnight to dry and hopefully harden. The results were disappointing as they held shape well, but were soft and overall just not what I expected. After letting them sit for another afternoon they are more pliable and springy, but still not what I had expected.

What I got from your suggestions is that I should be using a thinner veg tan liner and a heavier chrome tanned outer vamp. I am fuzzy on the process though. How do you case it? What do you mean by this?

How exactly do you construct the toe box? Just from the brief description of your last post it sounds like I should first use a thin 3-ish oz inner liner tacked to the last and then encase that with a heavier leather similar to what I am currently using and cement it to the liner. Skiving the edges is no problem, I have some experience with that and have a good knife for doing so.

What I"m not clear about is what is meant by lasting now. My understanding of lasting was using a pair of pliers/curved lasting pliers to pull the leather taut over the last and then tack the leather to prepare upper and sole to be attached.

I guess basically I am wanting to know how to construct a toe box, and if there are preferred methods for lasting a shoe, and how to construct the upper. I have read a ton of tutorials and watched some videos about lasting the upper once it's made, but have seen very little information about actually putting the upper together and preparing it for lasting.

I have other questions, but this is getting lengthy and perhaps it would be better to save them for when they are more relevant.

Thanks for the help so far! Hope to hear back with more information.

Edited September 25, 2010 by sepulverture

[Norwegian]

Thanks Norwegian and L.I. for the prompt reples!

Basically I am trying to construct a toe-box. What I am attempting to make is a double vamped outdoors boot, but before trying to make the boot I need to work out the problems I've been having with lasting.

I believe the leather is veg tanned, although I'm not sure. Unfortunately I live in China, and since Chinese is my second language I've had some trouble getting some of the related jargon down in Chinese. I think it's veg tanned though because if you take a nick out of the leather with a knife you can see that it is colored through all layers of the fiber, which I was told at one point is a characteristic of veg tanned leather, but I can't be sure.

Basically I am teaching myself at the moment for lack of a mentor, although I have hung around some of the cordwainers shops (which are few and far between). Some of them have been gracious enough to let me hang around and look over their shoulder, but most of the shoes I have seen have been purely cemented constructions, which is not what I was wanting to do. Regardless of the method I have learned a lot, but have only been able to wander in and watch them at whatever stage of construction they happened to be at at that moment.

With regards to lining leathers, basically i have none right now. I realized that I will need several layers of lighter weight leather, or a lighter weight leather combined with the heavier leather. The main goal of these experiments was to get a better grasp of the lasting process so that when I begin actual work on my boots the result will be better.

I actually have no counter on the last, since I was only intending to practice stretch and hardening leather on the last, and didn't want to cut any new sheets until I was closer to being ready for a full undertaking.

What I did was took a piece of scrap leather (I think veg tan 6~7oz) and stretched it over the last after soaking it in cool water for about 15 minutes, tacked it to the last starting under the tip of the toe, and pulled and tacked around the edges until it was taut and even over the last, and let it dry. When it was dry I poured two gallons (roughly) worth of near-boiling water over it following the method used for cuir bouilli leather hardening with boiling water which got me almost no results on this occasion, although I have achieved very good results on different items. After the boiled water treatment I let them sit overnight to dry and hopefully harden. The results were disappointing as they held shape well, but were soft and overall just not what I expected. After letting them sit for another afternoon they are more pliable and springy, but still not what I had expected.

What I got from your suggestions is that I should be using a thinner veg tan liner and a heavier chrome tanned outer vamp. I am fuzzy on the process though. How do you case it? What do you mean by this?

How exactly do you construct the toe box? Just from the brief description of your last post it sounds like I should first use a thin 3-ish oz inner liner tacked to the last and then encase that with a heavier leather similar to what I am currently using and cement it to the liner. Skiving the edges is no problem, I have some experience with that and have a good knife for doing so.

What I"m not clear about is what is meant by lasting now. My understanding of lasting was using a pair of pliers/curved lasting pliers to pull the leather taut over the last and then tack the leather to prepare upper and sole to be attached.

I guess basically I am wanting to know how to construct a toe box, and if there are preferred methods for lasting a shoe, and how to construct the upper. I have read a ton of tutorials and watched some videos about lasting the upper once it's made, but have seen very little information about actually putting the upper together and preparing it for lasting.

I have other questions, but this is getting lengthy and perhaps it would be better to save them for when they are more relevant.

Thanks for the help so far! Hope to hear back with more information.

Making boots is fun! But not easy to explain..

Maybe some pics of toe boxes will help? This is the way I was taught..

the toe boxes..

attaching to the boot..

on the boot

adding several layers of celluloid cement (will harden the box)

vamps with lining

vamps with lining + tops

[Norwegian]

Did you see the first topic here on "shoes, boots, sandals and moccassins"? There is an "e-book" that you can download..

[sepulverture]

Norwegian - Thanks for the photos, they did kind of clear up some questions i had in mind. Pictures are worth a thousand words, right? Thanks for the e-book reference, I will check that out too!

Edited September 26, 2010 by sepulverture

[sepulverture]

Just a little update on progress here. I went and bought materials I want to use for the boots. They didn't have all of what was suggested. Unfortunately I was finally able to confirm that most of the leather sold here is chrome tanned. I guess veg tan just isn't in high enough demand here to justify keeping much in stock. Also the selection wasn't ideal in terms of what was available in my budget.

For the lining I ended up getting 1~1.5mm pig skin leather, which is roughly 3~4oz., and for the vamp/counter I ended up getting 5~6oz cowhide, and for the toe boxes and counter inners I have a good supply of 6.5~7oz cow hide left over from previous projects. for the soles I have a large sheet of 16~16.5 oz hardened cowhide, and rubber treads that can be cemented to the bottoms of the soles. For an additional layer of inner lining I have a bolt of fine Chinese silk that I have used to line some bags, and a pair of moccasins I made for a friend, and I also have a sheet of fur-on sheep skin for making a winter insert for the boots.

[Norwegian]

Just a little update on progress here. I went and bought materials I want to use for the boots. They didn't have all of what was suggested. Unfortunately I was finally able to confirm that most of the leather sold here is chrome tanned. I guess veg tan just isn't in high enough demand here to justify keeping much in stock. Also the selection wasn't ideal in terms of what was available in my budget.

For the lining I ended up getting 1~1.5mm pig skin leather, which is roughly 3~4oz., and for the vamp/counter I ended up getting 5~6oz cowhide, and for the toe boxes and counter inners I have a good supply of 6.5~7oz cow hide left over from previous projects. for the soles I have a large sheet of 16~16.5 oz hardened cowhide, and rubber treads that can be cemented to the bottoms of the soles. For an additional layer of inner lining I have a bolt of fine Chinese silk that I have used to line some bags, and a pair of moccasins I made for a friend, and I also have a sheet of fur-on sheep skin for making a winter insert for the boots.

Could I ask for a picture of the Chinese silk?

[sepulverture]

Could I ask for a picture of the Chinese silk?

sure thing. Here is a photo of a pair of decorative bracers I did for a friend of mine. Also included is a pair of moccasin boots I made for the same guy (I don't like the tassels much personally, but then again I'm not the one wearing them).

Edited September 27, 2010 by sepulverture