Advice On Lasting Boots

[Norwegian]

sure thing. Here is a photo of a pair of decorative bracers I did for a friend of mine. Also included is a pair of moccasin boots I made for the same guy (I don't like the tassels much personally, but then again I'm not the one wearing them).

Thank you for the pics!

How does the silk hold over time?

Any news about your boots?

Rik

[sepulverture]

I have lined a pair of small bracers for myself that I keep magnetic key-cards in and small change for paying bicycle park fares and whatnot. I lined these with the same leather, and considering that Beijing summer is just ending which is hot, and dry with some moisture from heavy rainfall every now and then, plus considering all the other odds and ends of leather accessory usage I'd say they have lasted great so far. I have been wearing these for about a year, by the way.

They don't take rubber cement very well however. Any surface I've tacked them down to with rubber cement has seen the silk come unglued shortly after the cement has dried, so really the cement is only good for temp-tacking to hold in place for stitching.

I have run into problems with test lasts of lining leather (pig skin) and toebox leather (6~7oz cow leather). I gave each piece a full skive to a feather point, except the toe box leather i skived to scant edges, about 1 inch allowance on the toe-box, and just on the edges for the lining (since they are so thin anyway).

The problems I am having are that when nailing the pieces to the last wrinkles form along the upper part of the low instep and waist of the last. I have managed to work some of these out by hand, and by repositioning nails on the underside of the last to try to distribute the stretch more evenly. I think part of the problem may be that the stretching is inherently uneven because I don't have counter lining attached, only vamp lining (again, just experimental test lasts to get a feel for my lasts, and understand how to construct toe boxes).

I also realized that I may need a crimp board to help set the shape of the vamp before attempting to last it, and this may help with wrinkling.

Another problem I have is that when I have tried nailing the seam allowances down on the underside of the last that I have ended up with large and very visible creases and wrinkles along the front of the toe, leading to where the vamps are tacked down. The only thing I can figure is that I need to notch the leather before trying to last it and that may alleviate the problem, but I also remember going through picture tutorials on lasting and seeing that the vamps weren't notched before being lasted, and that the guy in the tutorial has no problems lasting without leaving large creases.

I will provide pictures later to help demonstrate my points, I am at work now and don't have access to them. Hopefully some of you may have an idea already about what problems i am talking about and be able to provide some feedback.

[sepulverture]

Well, i figured out a bunch of the problems as I went along with this, and was very pleased with the results. I personally like deep toe boxes, so I made the inner portion of the toe box of a more rigid leather of a heavy-ish weight of about 6.5oz, and covered it with an equally weighted layer of leather that is naturally very pliable. I guess if I were to run the second layer of thick pliable leather around the whole vamp it would be called double vamp, which is great because that's why I want to do with this these boots. Next test I plan to do is with a full vamp+ counter, but no shaft panels or lining.

The thing that is getting my goat a little bit now is when making the insole how to pull of a hold-fast and do the inseaming. I have done inseaming before, but of a totally different style. I am also wondering if anyone knows of any good tutorial on how to do a goodyear welt, or a Norwegian welt.

I'm sure to the more experienced boot makers this job looks rather sloppy, but I think i'm pretty happy with it for having been the first toe-box I've ever made on a last. It turned out very well. If I were to put a vamp cover on over this I think it would look alright. Not perfect of course, that will come with practice, but I'm pleased for the moment.

Edited September 29, 2010 by sepulverture

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

It's Nick, isn't it?

My suggestion is to get done gettin' ready, and get started.

I assume you're still on the Russell Hunting boot style, is that correct? My opinion is that it really is an overly ambitious style with which to start.

Did you get your pattern makers book yet?.

When you do, here's a good first step; after you've made your pattern, make up a fitters model. You'll get lasting practice in 'real time' as it were. Up to now, what you're getting has been good for up to now.

I've attached a picture of a fitters model of the western boots I make. (It's the assembled rough outs)

They are made up of remnant leather, assembled so as to give me the negative space for the last to fill. I usually make them to test the fit before I begin making the boots, but also sometimes as a pattern test.

If you wanted to practice toe boxes, you could properly install remant leather liners (I guess that would be good practice too), and pull it over your last.

Do you need to know the sequence of your "drafts"?

That may need to be another lesson.

I'd strongly recommend DW Frommer's book ofnthe Western Packers for instruction in assembly fundaments. He works with the Geometric Method of pattern making, as opposed to choices elsewhere.

http://www.bootmaker.com/dwswb.htm

For the fitters for your Hunting Boot design, you'd have your quarters and vamp stitched together, and then pull that over your last with insole attached..

(You could wait to make your smaller pattern pieces later, unless you want to practice that now too, of course.

Moving forward in small steps is not a bad idea by any means. Just don't get discouraged. This is a very long process that only gets some quicker. Remember there's more to it than meets the eye.)

You need to make your tries with the work that has proceeded the step you're practicing, if you know what I mean.

FYI, I often use skirting leather scraps for the counters in my fitters. I don't know if the style you'll be making will want 'stitched in' counters, or "pocket" counters, probably the latter. DW's method, which I use, has 'stitched in'.

I guess we can talk about that as we get there.

I've looked thru most all the pictures on my computer, and I don't see any for lasting as instructional images.

The best I can do is the next three attached.

They are;

1. tops and vamps are ready to be side seamed,

2.treed prior to being lasted, and

3.lasted....

everything but the actual lasting..

I would be pleased to help with building a holdfast on your insole for inseaming when you're ready, (and I have many pictures of that)

but my suggestion is to let your fitter be cement constructed..

Veldtshoen (sp?) or Norwegian Welt, is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. And one for an advanced class.

Do you know of Sharon Raymongs book Simple Shoes? Check this out also:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1579903789

Have you spent any time on this web site yet? No boot/shoe making study should be without it.

http://www.thehcc.org/

You'll find all this and more discussed in spades, but patience, it takes awhile to find it.

I'll stop here and give you a chance to reply...

[sepulverture]

Nick,

It's Nick, isn't it?

My suggestion is to get done gettin' ready, and get started.

I assume you're still on the Russell Hunting boot style, is that correct? My opinion is that it really is an overly ambitious style with which to start.

Did you get your pattern makers book yet?.

When you do, here's a good first step; after you've made your pattern, make up a fitters model. You'll get lasting practice in 'real time' as it were. Up to now, what you're getting has been good for up to now.

I've attached a picture of a fitters model of the western boots I make. (It's the assembled rough outs)

They are made up of remnant leather, assembled so as to give me the negative space for the last to fill. I usually make them to test the fit before I begin making the boots, but also sometimes as a pattern test.

If you wanted to practice toe boxes, you could properly install remant leather liners (I guess that would be good practice too), and pull it over your last.

Do you need to know the sequence of your "drafts"?

That may need to be another lesson.

I'd strongly recommend DW Frommer's book ofnthe Western Packers for instruction in assembly fundaments. He works with the Geometric Method of pattern making, as opposed to choices elsewhere.

http://www.bootmaker.com/dwswb.htm

For the fitters for your Hunting Boot design, you'd have your quarters and vamp stitched together, and then pull that over your last with insole attached..

(You could wait to make your smaller pattern pieces later, unless you want to practice that now too, of course.

Moving forward in small steps is not a bad idea by any means. Just don't get discouraged. This is a very long process that only gets some quicker. Remember there's more to it than meets the eye.)

You need to make your tries with the work that has proceeded the step you're practicing, if you know what I mean.

FYI, I often use skirting leather scraps for the counters in my fitters. I don't know if the style you'll be making will want 'stitched in' counters, or "pocket" counters, probably the latter. DW's method, which I use, has 'stitched in'.

I guess we can talk about that as we get there.

I've looked thru most all the pictures on my computer, and I don't see any for lasting as instructional images.

The best I can do is the next three attached.

They are;

1. tops and vamps are ready to be side seamed,

2.treed prior to being lasted, and

3.lasted....

everything but the actual lasting..

I would be pleased to help with building a holdfast on your insole for inseaming when you're ready, (and I have many pictures of that)

but my suggestion is to let your fitter be cement constructed..

Veldtshoen (sp?) or Norwegian Welt, is a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. And one for an advanced class.

Do you know of Sharon Raymongs book Simple Shoes? Check this out also:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/1579903789

Have you spent any time on this web site yet? No boot/shoe making study should be without it.

http://www.thehcc.org/

You'll find all this and more discussed in spades, but patience, it takes awhile to find it.

I'll stop here and give you a chance to reply...

Paul,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, and yes the name is Nick, or Nicholas if you prefer (I have no qualms either way).

First I need to point out that none of the images attached are showing up, I have no idea why so I'm afraid some of your points didn't quite come out. Perhaps reattaching the images will resolve that problem. To answer two of your questions in one go I decided not to go with the Russel Hunting boot for my first go. I can understand how you'd think it to be too ambitious a project to try right out of the gate (although to be quite frank I enjoy taking on overly ambitious first attempts on things. I think I learn a lot about myself in the process), but in the interest of saving time, headaches and money on wasted leather I decided to go with a comparatively simple British paratroopers boot with belted shaft cover (image attached at the end of message, black and white). I decided for the entire upper to be one large piece with a counter piece attached to the outside to reinforce the heel. And to be honest I'm not sure i know what a pattern makers model is.

Unfortunately I'm working with relatively limited supplies, since cordwaining is not that hot of a trade here. It has a huge market in this city for shoe and boot makers, but not many people practice here so tools are not easy to come by. I made a crimping board the other day with a hack-saw and a bamboo kitchen cutting board that I picked up at a local farmers co-op, and it works alright for my purposes. But no pattern makers model.

Without the attached pictures I can only assume what you mean by the fitters model, but just from what you've said I'm assuming it's a mock-up of the intended boot using scrap leather just to test the fit, so that any changes that need to be made to the patterns can be made without wasting good leather.

Thinking about it I do believe I have a fitter in the works. I think this is ultimately what all these pieces are going towards. I used the toe-box to check the fit on my foot, and found it to be good as I type this I've cut a liner of soft pig skin that is mulling right now and waiting to be lasted. I have no qualms with the insole for the fitter being cemented. My only concern when it comes to the actual product is that Beijing's run off after rains can be mildly corrosive to cements and leather if it soaks in good, thanks to all the pollution, so I am adamant about good strong welting of some sort. I also need to practice pegging my heel stacks, for the same reason. Back to the fitter though. I am planning to last the liner tonight and let it sit overnight and tomorrow cut out an upper, get it mulled and stretch it over my crimping board, while that's curing I plan to do everything for the heel, and on sunday get it all lasted together, then when that's cured and dried to slip my foot in and check it out. If I'm pleased with that then move forward from there.

Regarding the Norwegian welt, I am vaguely familiar with it. I have the method for doing the actual stitching down pat, I've used it a lot on other things I've made (bags, decorative items).

I think I know the sequence for tacking down the drafts. If memory serves it should be a couple around the toe, then behind the ball then fill in the rest of the forepart, then proceed to the rear. I have had a little trouble with chasing the tunnels from the sides of the last down to the underside of the last, but I think I'm figuring that out a little as i go.

As for the HCC, yes I have checked out the site several times. I even considered purchasing a membership, but before I do I need to make a few pairs of shoes and consider how far I want to take this. As things stand now this is shaping up to be something I want to take out of the realm of hobbying and take it to higher places and possibly make a living from it after a few more years of experience. As is there is a bit of demand for my bags being generated around the fashion circles in the city thanks to some tailor friends of mine helping advertise my work, but shoes and boots is a whole different ballpark. Once I've settled on a decision I'll decide on purchasing a membership or not. But yes, it is going to need patience as I didn't have a whole lot of luck navigating the site.

I'll give you a chance to respond before this post turns into a novel.

Thanks again, looking forward to your reply,

Nick

Edited October 1, 2010 by sepulverture

[Leatherimages]

I've reattached the pictures as you have done, and they should show at the bottom of this post.

These are all pull ons, and I acknowledge you are making a lace up. Sorry, I just don't have any pictures of lace ups in process.

I like challenges too, believe me, but encourageing smaller steps will take you further. I respect your efforts

It sounds like you have it right about lasting draft sequence,

You also have it right about the fitters model, and it will serve as a pattern test also.

In the Paratrooper boot you are showing, the quarters would have the tongue and counter attached,

(for a fitter you wo uld not need to do a counter cover, unless you were insisting on a "pocket" counter.)

Then the vamp and lining would be installed, then lasted and allowed to dry. The tacks at the toe would be released and the vamp pulled back to install the toe boxes. Then the vamp would be pulled over and cemented to the insole. That would be your pattern/fitters modelwith extra credit for the toe box practice.

I understand what you're saying about your environmental conditions leading your choices about inseam construction. Wow. So yeah, a hand stitched inseam with holdfast would indeed be best for you at this time.

We can do that in it's turn. But I've attached a picture just to feed your imaginings. This is for a box toe, one that is squared across the front by a turn up on the insole. it's not really what you're likely to do, but it's the picture I have of the sculpted insole at this stage.

Paul

Edited October 1, 2010 by Leatherimages

[sepulverture]

Thanks Paul for the attached images. They have indeed fed my imagination a bit. Your example of the holdfast is considerably different from what I originally pictured, but it makes sense I think. Do you have any other photos of inseaming you could share?

I think I have a good idea what you're talking about the whole lasting process, and in fact this morning I put together a fitters model to test part of my pattern (I haven't got the whole pattern worked out yet, because I don't quite understand the whole process of measuring and whatnot yet, kind of figuring that out as I go right now). I also used the toe box that I made the other day with this fitters model just to see how it feels. I think my last may actually be a bit too long, but will see when the fitter is done.

I did check out the sites you recommended, and saw the books you suggested. They do look like something I ought to be getting and studying and I intend to do so.

I am assuming that when you say "pocket construction" regarding the boots I intend to make that you are meaning the vamp and counter are in fact one piece stitched together along the back of the heel. This is what I'm currently intending, since it seems to be the easiest design to work with at the moment. Also i have a pair of Belleville Gore-Tex combat boots that have this construction, and I like their look and feel a lot.

I have taken step-by-step photos of what I am currently trying out on my last, which I will post up probably tonight or tomorrow. Based on these pictures you may be able to have an idea of the direction I am intending to take with these boots.

One question I have right off of my head is that when mentioning a 'stitched in' lining do you mean that each piece of the outter (shaft, vamp, counter pieces) each have their own piece of lining stitched directly to them, and the "pocket" lining refers to larger sheets of lining that would cover all the seams from the inside? If this is in fact your meaning I am currently planning to do a "stitched" lining.

[Leatherimages]

Do you have any other photos of inseaming you could share?

I don't really. That will be something I'll be adding to my library of pictures in the pairs ahead. But there are great tutorials on the Crispin Colloquy.

I think I have a good idea what you're talking about the whole lasting process, and in fact this morning I put together a fitters model to test part of my pattern (I haven't got the whole pattern worked out yet, because I don't quite understand the whole process of measuring and whatnot yet, kind of figuring that out as I go right now). I also used the toe box that I made the other day with this fitters model just to see how it feels. I think my last may actually be a bit too long, but will see when the fitter is done.

You really need to get your patterns worked out to know anything about your fit. The subject of fit is so complex, I don't know how it would go, trying to do it by these kinds of posts.

DW says, "Learning to make boots is a matter of muscel memory, learning to fit is a life long study".

You really need to get involved with the Cordwainers thru the Crispin Colloquy and tap that world wide resourse. I could direct you some to help you learn your way around the site.

I am assuming that when you say "pocket construction" regarding the boots I intend to make that you are meaning the vamp and counter are in fact one piece stitched together along the back of the heel. This is what I'm currently intending, since it seems to be the easiest design to work with at the moment. Also i have a pair of Belleville Gore-Tex combat boots that have this construction, and I like their look and feel a lot.

I have taken step-by-step photos of what I am currently trying out on my last, which I will post up probably tonight or tomorrow. Based on these pictures you may be able to have an idea of the direction I am intending to take with these boots.

One question I have right off of my head is that when mentioning a 'stitched in' lining do you mean that each piece of the outter (shaft, vamp, counter pieces) each have their own piece of lining stitched directly to them, and the "pocket" lining refers to larger sheets of lining that would cover all the seams from the inside? If this is in fact your meaning I am currently planning to do a "stitched" lining.

No, I'm referring to a pocket counter, as opposed to a stitched-in counter.

In a pocket counter construction, the counter, or heel stiffener, is between two layers, like in a pocket.

It may be between the quarters and a counter cover, with the quarters extending all the way down to the heel seat, serving as a "liner",

then the counter in the "pocket", and then a cover stitched to the outside, looking much as your Russell illustration shows.

Or there may be a lining for the quaters, with the counter between these layers.

In a stitched-in counter, the pattern for the quarters would be drafted with a void drawn in where the counter would be stitched in. Then the counter cover would be applied over that.

The advantage of the stitched-in counter, where it may be possible to do this on any given style, is that the counter leather, which is usually something like 10-12 ounce veg, will be much longer lasting than any lining leather. I've seen many a hole in liners in the heel area from wear, but practically never in a stitch-in counter, such as cowboy boots have.

Of course I'm interested to see your work, it will be very helpful for commenting.

As for linings, different constructions and different sewing machines will sometimes dictate how you'll go about doing your linings. But one thing to remember as a handmaker, you always want to think out ahead 15-30 years, for in the event that the boot comes back for repair. How possible it might be, may depend on how you chose to construct it.

Paul

[sepulverture]

Paul,

I have been going through the Crispin Colloquy the last few days, checking out the gallery images and searching out book references, especially pdf or otherwise downloadable books or videos since shipping is rather prohibitive where I am. I have registered there and just waiting for my information to be processed before I may begin posting there. I did check out their open forum and you were absolutely right. There is a tremendous wealth of information to be found there, but it is a little on the unusual side for navigating, but nothing that can't be adjusted to.

I understand what you mean about the pocket construction completely now. Basically that would be making the heel the same way the toe box is made, sandwiching the stiffener material between two other layers of material. This is what I intended to do when doing the heel construction.

Before reading much up on the subject I had planned to make the heel by using a heavier leather, although I wasn't sure what weight (your suggestion on weight was helpful, thanks), and placing it between the liner and counter cover, but reading your description of what a stitched-in counter is it makes a lot of sense. My only question regarding that would be comfort. I suppose it wouldn't matter much since there isn't a lot of downward weight being applied to the counter while a person walks, but would a stitched in counter cradle the heel the same way a cushioned or padded heel would? Is it as comfortable to wear?

I understand your comment regarding thinking into the future life of the boot to determine how plausible different patterns and schemes for linings might be. I don't have a sewing machine, and don't plan on stumping up for one until I am more certain of the direction I want to take my work in, so I will have to see about that. Therefore since all my work will be hand stitched I guess I need to think carefully about where and how to apply the lining.

I have also tried my hand ad sculpting a holdfast, which i will post up later on.

[sepulverture]

This reply is a bit late in coming, but I've been rather busy this past week.

It has been the Chinese "National Day" here, kind of like our independence day back in the States, and I was busy with obligatory things here and there, and went camping over the weekend.

(incidentally the Chinese countryside is very beautiful and clean, unlike the cities, perfect place to recharge the batteries of a small towner who somewhat homesick)

I watched the videos made by Marcell over at the Crispin Colloquy on the HCC, and they were very insightful. Also after observing the photos you posted at the beginning of this page demonstrating what a holdfast ought to look like I tried sculpting my own. For lacking a lot of information on exactly how one is made I think it turned out ok for just a tester, and I learned a lot from it. I also watched just about all of the other videos (except one talking about metal plates on the last, since my last is all plastic I didn't think it was relevant right now). It really was an extremely worthwhile endeavor to join and nav the forums.

Unfortunately when I made this holdfast I was using just a straight awl, since I was lacking the curved spade-headed awls commonly demonstrated in all the videos. Because of this it created a lot of upward tension while holing the holdfast, and the awl tore right through a few of them. After I finished holing though I realized this just isn't going to work, so I set about making more proper awls (since they aren't available in any of the leather stores that I'm aware of here).

I did this by taking an appropriately sized Allen wrench, and cold hammering it flat, and then cold hammering one end of the wrench into a rough spade shape, then using a rotary drill with a small metal grinding attachment and shaped it as well as I could then used the handle of a pair of steel dumb bells that I have to make the curve shape. Then I just used a retractable awl haft that I have been using for other things. It's a bit rough at the moment, so it catches a little bit when holing with it, but I found that applying a layer of bees wax, and a layer of dubbin on top of the bees wax it glides through alright.