Advice On Lasting Boots

[Leatherimages]

Wow, Good on you. You're very ingenious. I'm sure it's a matter of neccessity, but you seem to have what it takes.

You've done a fantastic job for your first go at the insole, for not having anyone standing over your shoulder. Very good! I'll share a few things on what you've shown.

You'll want to work out as much of the roughness as possible on your curved awl. Useing finer and finer grits of wet/dry sand paper and polishing the blade with jewlers rouge will work out the scratches and burrs, and it will slide through the holdfast much easier.

The beeswax is good, and will burnish your hole in preparation for stitching later.

The edge of the insole is called the feather, and the distance from the feather to the holdfast should be equal to the combined thickness of your vamp and linings. Your hold fast ought to be about 6mm wide. Space your holes about 3 to the inch. This will sometimes mean that at the inside of the curve of the toe, they may need to be closer together than that, and you might need to come through the holdfast at an angle, spacing your entry hole so you don't break through when inseaming. Also you'll want to keep in mind that the welt will be too loose if your spacing is greater than 3 to the inch at the feather edge.

You're doing great. I'm glad you spent sometime on the Colloquy. I'm a boot maker and not as versed in all the shoe making points as Masters such as Marcel can share. If you ever have a chance to take one of his workshops, you will be miles ahead of me.

The countryside there in China is indeed very beautiful. Earth is a great place, isn't it?

Keep up the good work.

[sepulverture]

Wow, Good on you. You're very ingenious. I'm sure it's a matter of neccessity, but you seem to have what it takes.

You've done a fantastic job for your first go at the insole, for not having anyone standing over your shoulder. Very good! I'll share a few things on what you've shown.

You'll want to work out as much of the roughness as possible on your curved awl. Useing finer and finer grits of wet/dry sand paper and polishing the blade with jewlers rouge will work out the scratches and burrs, and it will slide through the holdfast much easier.

The beeswax is good, and will burnish your hole in preparation for stitching later.

The edge of the insole is called the feather, and the distance from the feather to the holdfast should be equal to the combined thickness of your vamp and linings. Your hold fast ought to be about 6mm wide. Space your holes about 3 to the inch. This will sometimes mean that at the inside of the curve of the toe, they may need to be closer together than that, and you might need to come through the holdfast at an angle, spacing your entry hole so you don't break through when inseaming. Also you'll want to keep in mind that the welt will be too loose if your spacing is greater than 3 to the inch at the feather edge.

You're doing great. I'm glad you spent sometime on the Colloquy. I'm a boot maker and not as versed in all the shoe making points as Masters such as Marcel can share. If you ever have a chance to take one of his workshops, you will be miles ahead of me.

The countryside there in China is indeed very beautiful. Earth is a great place, isn't it?

Keep up the good work.

Paul,

Thanks for the compliments on my work. I didn't actually make the curved awl until I was nigh on finished with my first attempt at the holdfast. Up until that point I was using a straight awl (saddlers awl?). This second time around I used the curved awl that I made (pictured in last post) and a shorter curved awl which has a much more accelerated curve. Both of them glided right through the leather when I used a little bees wax as a lubricant. They do still catch and could be a lot smoother, so I've taken them to the sanding paper and done what I can with what I have. The result is satisfactory for the time being.

I think I more or less got a handle on the holdfast, not perfect but that will come with practice.

Now I am moving on towards getting ideas and whatnot for making patterns. I am at the point where I am mostly wondering how to go about taking measurements, and deciding on sizes and everything for my patterns. The boot I have in mind is a fairly simple one, basically just four pieces each for the uppers linings and covers. Vamp and counter cover being one continuous piece that is stitched together behind the heel, and stiffened with a counter, and something like another cover sewn up the heel and spine of the boot to seal the rear of the shaft and counter cover seam. The shaft will be divided into two halves and they'll meet in the front on the instep/high instep where they will be laced/belted together. I plan to have a zipper running up the side on the inside, although I'm not totally sure about this because it would compromise water proofing a little bit, although the quick on/off is something I have enjoyed in all the boots I've purchased in the last few years.

Considering that these will be fully hand-sewn, since I don't have a machine (and want to develop a reputation as doing fully hand-stitched work) I am thinking a lot about how the patter should be arrange, how much seam allowance to give, and the construction of the lining.

I am also giving your stitched-in counter suggestion serious though. I think that the pocket counter would be easier, and I am not expecting a whole lot out of these since they are after all only my first pair of boots made in this style, but I am also thinking I ought to be establishing as many good habits as I can from the get-go.

Here are a few photos of my second attempt at a holdfast. I am not sure about the spacing, I was just eye-balling it, and the lack of rulers that are demarcated with standard American inches makes it more difficult. Knowing that an inch is roughly 2.5cm though I checked it out with my cm based rulers and it seems to work out to roughly 3 to the inch, although around the toe and heel the spacing becomes kind of uneven. Even so it ought to work out ok.

[Leatherimages]

Nick, my apologies for not replying sooner. It's hard for me to bring my full attention to the keyboard, especially when my wife is home. But bless her heart, I'm a boot maker by her grace,

I like your progress. It's good to have those two differnt degrees of curve in your awls.

In time, their specific differences will become manifest, and you'll appreciate them anew,

if you know what I mean, jelly bean.

I think I more or less got a handle on the holdfast, not perfect but that will come with practice.

The only point I'll make here is that you want to be careful to maintain an even 1.5 to 2 mm thichness on the feather edge. Too much thinner than that, in the wrong spot around the perimeter of the insole, can create a knife edge, if sweat should dry and stiffen the insole.

And that's also why the "old dead guys", who wrote the "How to's" in the 19th Cenury, recommended brushing on repeated applications of Tallow, or rendered fat. Get the point?

Now I am moving on towards getting ideas and whatnot for making patterns. I am at the point where I am mostly wondering how to go about taking measurements, and deciding on sizes and everything for my patterns. The boot I have in mind is a fairly simple one, basically just four pieces each for the uppers linings and covers. Vamp and counter cover being one continuous piece that is stitched together behind the heel, and stiffened with a counter, and something like another cover sewn up the heel and spine of the boot to seal the rear of the shaft and counter cover seam. The shaft will be divided into two halves and they'll meet in the front on the instep/high instep where they will be laced/belted together. I plan to have a zipper running up the side on the inside, although I'm not totally sure about this because it would compromise water proofing a little bit, although the quick on/off is something I have enjoyed in all the boots I've purchased in the last few years.

Now you're talking about a system. A system of measuring, pattern making and the tricky part, order of assembly. This is the fundamentals. It will be much easier for me to comment, when I know which or whose's system you're talking about.

Did you get the Pattern Makers book from Nobel Press? It's value is tremendous from this point.

The style you are describing is fundamentaly a Balmoral Style. There are specific drawings, and lines that are necessary for this style to be viable. (Frank discusses the Balmoral in the text mentioned above.) I'm extremely interested in this style myself, and want to try my hand at it sometime. But there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't really know where the challenging parts are but DW, who has made several, himself feels there's still more to figure out about how to control the fit and function in the patterning process. Knowing where the controls are is critical to understanding patterns for footwear also.

Using the tape method of pattern making, will give you a chance to draw the pattern lines for the stlye you're considering.

A zipper could have a tongue to help with water resistance at that point.

Considering that these will be fully hand-sewn, since I don't have a machine (and want to develop a reputation as doing fully hand-stitched work) I am thinking a lot about how the patter should be arrange, how much seam allowance to give, and the construction of the lining.

Until we identify more about your pattern parts, I'll only comment on the insole, before we get any further away from it.

On the insoles you've shown 'til now, you have made your holdfast go all the way around the heel. This is a method that does indeed have it's applications, like in European dress shoes. It's a classic.

But not in work or outdoor boots in my opinion. I've seen many fault at the stitches around the heel. They break from exposure to many different elements. This style has a weakness at a critical spot. The heel of the foot flexes away from the heel of the boot with the greatest force at this point, where these stitches are all that's holding it together. My suggestion would be to plan on turning under; the lining, counter, and heel cover, and tackng it with either brass clinching nails, maybe wood pegs, or lastly iron clinching nails.

I've been giving your suggestion of a stitched-in counter suggestion serious though. I think that the pocket counter would be easier, and I am not expecting a whole lot out of these since they are after all only my first pair of boots made in this style, but I am also thinking I ought to be establishing as many good habits as I can from the get-go.

It's likely the choice will be obvious when pattern making begins. But with a "hung lining", ie. one stitched at the top line and extending all the way to the insole, utilizing a "pocket counter", one just should be conscious to select leather for the greatest wear.

Here are a few photos of my second attempt at a holdfast. I am not sure about the spacing, I was just eye-balling it, and the lack of rulers that are demarcated with standard American inches makes it more difficult. Knowing that an inch is roughly 2.5cm though I checked it out with my cm based rulers and it seems to work out to roughly 3 to the inch, although around the toe and heel the spacing becomes kind of uneven. Even so it ought to work out ok.

Your spacing looks pretty good. DW showed me to do this. Take a narrow gauge nail about 1 1/4" long and bend it. And like cribbage, move it along after you make each hole. It will serve as a point of reference as you try to get the feel for "3 to the inch".

Or use a marker along the ouside of the holdfast until eye begins to know it. From the apex of the curve of your toe, angle the path of the awl away from the center and not in towards it. If you do this about an inch and a half back from the middle, you'll have plenty of room for your awl holes there at the toe.

Edited October 12, 2010 by Leatherimages

[sepulverture]

Nick, my apologies for not replying sooner. It's hard for me to bring my full attention to the keyboard, especially when my wife is home. But bless her heart, I'm a boot maker by her grace,

No worries, we all have lives and things to attend to beyond the forums. I am also not replying to your posts as quickly as I ought to (considering that you are taking a fair bit of your personal time to help me in my journey here). You are definitely right about one thing here. It is often by the good grace of others that we may pursue our ambitions (give her a big thanks from me! haha).

I like your progress. It's good to have those two differnt degrees of curve in your awls.

In time, their specific differences will become manifest, and you'll appreciate them anew,

if you know what I mean, jelly bean.

Yes I can see your point entirely. they have already proven to be useful in their own applications. The only point I'll make here is that you want to be careful to maintain an even 1.5 to 2 mm thichness on the feather edge. Too much thinner than that, in the wrong spot around the perimeter of the insole, can create a knife edge, if sweat should dry and stiffen the insole.

And that's also why the "old dead guys", who wrote the "How to's" in the 19th Cenury, recommended brushing on repeated applications of Tallow, or rendered fat. Get the point?

Yes the point is well taken. That's what the dubbin is basically, just a big slop of tallow that is orange and smells pretty. I was always curious about the feather edge, because it never really occurred to me why a full feather would be useful in this situation. I will keep a couple millimeters thickness on them. Now you're talking about a system. A system of measuring, pattern making and the tricky part, order of assembly. This is the fundamentals. It will be much easier for me to comment, when I know which or whose's system you're talking about.

Did you get the Pattern Makers book from Nobel Press? It's value is tremendous from this point.

The style you are describing is fundamentaly a Balmoral Style. There are specific drawings, and lines that are necessary for this style to be viable. (Frank discusses the Balmoral in the text mentioned above.) I'm extremely interested in this style myself, and want to try my hand at it sometime. But there's more to it than meets the eye. I don't really know where the challenging parts are but DW, who has made several, himself feels there's still more to figure out about how to control the fit and function in the patterning process. Knowing where the controls are is critical to understanding patterns for footwear also.

Using the tape method of pattern making, will give you a chance to draw the pattern lines for the stlye you're considering.

Unfortunately I have no idea about the different systems. I did a quick search for the patter makers book you are referencing here, but didn't come up with any useful results right away. I do have just about all of the videos available on the HCC, but none of them cover anything about patter making. Do you happen to have the authors name of the Pattern Makers Book? Regarding the style I suppose you could call it a balmoral style that I want to make, although with modifications (although looking at them it appears that the basic construction would be the same). Could you give me a breakdown of the 'tape method' of pattern making? Until we identify more about your pattern parts, I'll only comment on the insole, before we get any further away from it.

On the insoles you've shown 'til now, you have made your holdfast go all the way around the heel. This is a method that does indeed have it's applications, like in European dress shoes. It's a classic.

But not in work or outdoor boots in my opinion. I've seen many fault at the stitches around the heel. They break from exposure to many different elements. This style has a weakness at a critical spot. The heel of the foot flexes away from the heel of the boot with the greatest force at this point, where these stitches are all that's holding it together. My suggestion would be to plan on turning under; the lining, counter, and heel cover, and tackng it with either brass clinching nails, maybe wood pegs, or lastly iron clinching nails.

I understand all you've said here. I was thinking about a lot of 'what if the stitches were to tear through the holdfast?' kind of questions, and I think I came up with a variety of possibilities. One idea I had was very simply to stitch the upper to the outside and inside of holdfast, so that the upper would be folded over the holdfast, and using the awl make holes on both sides of the holdfast, and run the thread through vamp(inside) - holdfast - vamp(outside) - welt (if what I just described to you makes sense), and then using some method (pegs, nails, or stitching) to fasten the upper to a thicker part of the insole on the inside of the holdfast somewhere. I also had the idea of making the insole two pieces. The thick heavy sole-leather material, and a second layer of vamp leather material sandwiched between that and the last which would be stitched together after the holdfast was made (so the holdfast is sculpted, removed from the last where the vamp material is applied to the upper side of the insole where the foot would rest, and then stitched together or cemented together). That way when the clinching nails, or stitching, or whatever would be done was done it would have that extra layer of unskived/unsculted leather to hold on to for added strength. These are just ideas though and I'm not sure how viable they are, although in theory I think they would work.

It's likely the choice will be obvious when pattern making begins. But with a "hung lining", ie. one stitched at the top line and extending all the way to the insole, utilizing a "pocket counter", one just should be conscious to select leather for the greatest wear.

I understand what you're saying about this as well, and this may ultimately be what I end up doing. I did think about stitching the counter directly to the lining after it was cemented, but that would require me removing it from the last which adds a whole bunch of possibilities to screw things up, so I am apprehensive about doing these. My lining though ought to be sufficient (at least for a first pair of boots). The lining material is roughly 1.5-2mm top grain, so it ought to be ok, right?

Your spacing looks pretty good. DW showed me to do this. Take a narrow gauge nail about 1 1/4" long and bend it. And like cribbage, move it along after you make each hole. It will serve as a point of reference as you try to get the feel for "3 to the inch".

Or use a marker along the ouside of the holdfast until eye begins to know it. From the apex of the curve of your toe, angle the path of the awl away from the center and not in towards it. If you do this about an inch and a half back from the middle, you'll have plenty of room for your awl holes there at the toe.

I think I got the picture with what you're saying here, and I will try to remember these points when making my next holdfast. The cribbage pin idea is good also, and seems like it would be faster than marking out individual locations with a marker and measuring tape.

I am trying to find information about patter making, and giving this a lot of thought before moving forward. I am not afraid of making mistakes, because after all this is my first pair of boots made in this style and mistakes are to be expected. It would be a miracle if none were made and they turned out all fancy and beautiful, but being something of a pragmatist I know this is not going to be the case from the outset. I just don't want to turn this dead mammals sacrificed skin into a pile of junk however, and feel it should be well thought through before cutting much more out of the hide.

If you can provide me with the name of the author of the pattern makers book, or an amazon.com link (or a link to a downloadable pdf would be infinitely preferable since shipping is going to be a killer) then I can thumb through that and make better informed decisions regarding all of this.

On the other hand I am really considering just throwing caution to the wind, and making a best guess set of patterns, stitching it all together and throwing it on the last to see what I come up with.

Anyway thanks Paul for your time and help so far, I am looking forward to your next reply, and perhaps by then I'll have made up a fitters model to see where this is going.

Nick

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

Whew! I'm afraid I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the length of our posts. We've got to do shorter ones, I'm startin' to get lost.

Pattern Cutting-Step by Step Patterns for Footwear, edited by Frank Jones, (I mentioned in your other thread about Sheep Hunters boots)

Also I highly recommend Tim Skrym's book Bespoke Shoemaking, both are available here:

http://www.shoemakingbook.com/

(We're all together in this , you know)

You've demonsrated a skill at thinking things through, I'm really very impressed. But if you want to be successful in this effort, I believe you must follow the path of those who have gone before.

I'll be of little help if you want to create a whole new way.

(I don't know how much more help I can be, as it it is. But I am willing to help if you're will to get these text books.)

I would not have a thing to say about your own ideas about stitching the inseam like you're thinking. I can only imagine problems.

Many many shoes and boots, have been being made by hand by many many different people for many many years.

What works is what works. Learn the fundamental ways to do it, and then, after totally understanding how, then you can begin to "play in the field of possibilities".

We'll keep it going. This is being good for me too.

[sepulverture]

Nick,

Whew! I'm afraid I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the length of our posts. We've got to do shorter ones, I'm startin' to get lost.

Yeah we can keep our posts to shorter length, might be good to keep things more concise anyway

Pattern Cutting-Step by Step Patterns for Footwear, edited by Frank Jones, (I mentioned in your other thread about Sheep Hunters boots)

Also I highly recommend Tim Skrym's book Bespoke Shoemaking, both are available here:

http://www.shoemakingbook.com/

(We're all together in this , you know)

Two steps ahead of you on this one already there, Paul. I attempted to purchase the book, but paypal won't let me choose a shipping destination outside of the U.S. I have contacted Tim to try to find a solution to this problem, and I am currently awaiting his reply. On a side note, I have downloaded all available volumes of the Golding texts on shoe and boot making from the HCC library and am currently reading through vol.1. I decided to attempt to make formes based on Soule's system as outlined in vol.1 of the texts. I am mulling the leather I cut out based on those standards now and they are awaiting to be lasted to see what I come up with. I have high hopes for these as they produced fairly good looking results for this test, and if they work out then that means I have learned something valuable that I can run with. I will post pictures once it's done.

You've demonstrated a skill at thinking things through, I'm really very impressed. But if you want to be successful in this effort, I believe you must follow the path of those who have gone before.

I'll be of little help if you want to create a whole new way.

(I don't know how much more help I can be, as it it is. But I am willing to help if you're will to get these text books.)

I understand what you're saying here. While studying drawing and painting people said the same thing, so the point is well taken. Regarding the text books, the above paragraph explains my position with all that right now.

I would not have a thing to say about your own ideas about stitching the inseam like you're thinking. I can only imagine problems.

Many many shoes and boots, have been being made by hand by many many different people for many many years.

What works is what works. Learn the fundamental ways to do it, and then, after totally understanding how, then you can begin to "play in the field of possibilities".

Nothing really to add to what you're saying here. I can well imagine that people have had the same ideas I've presented here, but for some reason or another didn't run with it. Fundamentals are required to be successful in any endeavor, but experimentation is also important. I guess I will ultimately need to strike a balance between my desire to experiment, and keeping in with what has been proven to work. Also, any help that you can give it help well appreciated and I'm sure you can be of more help than you think (or at least more than modesty will let you state )

We'll keep it going. This is being good for me too.

[Leatherimages]

Nick,

I'm glad to read your response to my comments and advise. I've only begun to be confident enough of what I may know, to express my opinion in just the last couple of years.

I've still got bruises to show for some of my lessons, but like you I try to think things through.

I've spent time skimming Golding, but haven't really digested any of it. But I will be glad to do so when the time is right to anwser questions for you in the future,

but I can't say how much value I'll be on some of the patterning stuff, as I am a western boot maker primarily.

You've got a great learning attitude, and I'm very proud to have made your aquaintance.

I've got a couple of pair of boots on the bench right now. And the insoles are about due for sculpting.

I'll take pictures and post the process soon.

[sepulverture]

Nick,

I'm glad to read your response to my comments and advise. I've only begun to be confident enough of what I may know, to express my opinion in just the last couple of years.

I've still got bruises to show for some of my lessons, but like you I try to think things through.

I am glad to receive the advice. It is not common that experienced people will sit down and take time from their days to share what they can, so whatever you have to offer is appreciated. As for the issue about confidence, I can understand that well enough. I remember the feeling when I started doling out critiques of other artists sketches and building up confidence in doing so gradually.

I've spent time skimming Golding, but haven't really digested any of it. But I will be glad to do so when the time is right to anwser questions for you in the future,

but I can't say how much value I'll be on some of the patterning stuff, as I am a western boot maker primarily.

Western boots, European boots, Combat boots, whatever the style of boot is they all require patterns and standards, so I can't imagine that just because she design is different that means that the method of making the formes/patterns is terribly different. It seems that the method for creating the patterns are fundamentally the same, except that certain allowances need to be considered depending on the shape of the last. These are of course just observations of mine, and could be wrong.

You've got a great learning attitude, and I'm very proud to have made your aquaintance.

I've got a couple of pair of boots on the bench right now. And the insoles are about due for sculpting.

I'll take pictures and post the process soon.

Looking forward to seeing those pictures! Here are a few photos of my own.

The insole I used was the first of my two holdfast test sculpts so the spacing is a not right, the more recent insoles have more evenly spaced holes set closer together like we talked about before. I am actually wearing this test shoe as I type this, and in wearing it I am very glad I decided to make a fitters model. It seems that the spacers that the last maker put in to make it fit my food have made the last too long, which is making the whole thing fit wrong!

While holing the vamp i holed my thumb at the same time. It has also been a pleasure making your acquaintance

[Leatherimages]

I tried to reply to this yesterday, but it got lost in cyberspace I quit in frustration.

Patterning cowboy boots is really only done on the tops, and it relates primarily to the throat, or entry into the boot.

Patternmaking for shoes, has way more going on, and I've done enough to see that, once again, there is more to it than meets the eye.

It looks like your inseam is the approach you were describing earlier. And I guess it would work for a cemented constuction sole attachment.

My first thought is that the sheer factor and torque from walking would be hard on the holdfast, but I'm just looking at it critically.

Devilin or Thornton, I don't recall which of them, wrote on the subject of the angle of the inseam stitch in relation to the roll of the foot along the length of the insole,

and the manner the stitches should be set to reduce the stress on each stitch so as not to put too much sheer on the holdfast.

I think I'll be working on my two pair of insoles this weekend, and I'll address that when I post pics.

[sepulverture]

I tried to reply to this yesterday, but it got lost in cyberspace I quit in frustration.

I understand, it happens in these forums sometimes. No worries.

Patterning cowboy boots is really only done on the tops, and it relates primarily to the throat, or entry into the boot.

Patternmaking for shoes, has way more going on, and I've done enough to see that, once again, there is more to it than meets the eye.

Again, I get what you're saying. With any endeavor there is more than what is seen at a glance. Wouldn't the process of making formes the same regardless of what kind of boot you make, although the construction of the boot and whatnot may vary? Regardless it seems that steps taken to makes forms for a brogue or a balmoral ought to be the same as for a western cowboy boot or a loafer. This is again just observation at work, and I have little experience with forme making yet. I did get the stuff worked out with Tim to order the Pattern Making book by Frank Jones as you suggested, should be here this week. Once I have that in hand much will be revealed I'm sure.

It looks like your inseam is the approach you were describing earlier. And I guess it would work for a cemented construction sole attachment.

My first thought is that the sheer factor and torque from walking would be hard on the holdfast, but I'm just looking at it critically.

The seam isn't exactly what I described above, since it is still only stitched on the outside of the holdfast. I just didn't trim down the vamp to be flush with the holdfast. Also since this was simple testing what I learned about forme making and turning them into standards and whatnot I i didn't want to waste leather by cutting out a welt and welting this tester. Turns out that the last that was made for me was too big with the spacers they put between the forepart and the (rearpart?) so I took out the spacer and put in a much thinner one according to the measurements I took (very rough, just the width of my finger which was exactly hwo much too long the last was with their spacer). Now that I have a much clearer idea about pattern making and whatnot I am starting to flesh out a design mentally and on paper before doing anymore cutting,and I also wanted to wait for the book to arrive before taking these boots and further. I am hoping to get them done by december though. A cold snap has just hit Beijing and this is undoubtedly ushering the winds down from siberia and all that that entails (and my current boots that I ordered online are starting to fall apart).

Devilin or Thornton, I don't recall which of them, wrote on the subject of the angle of the inseam stitch in relation to the roll of the foot along the length of the insole,

and the manner the stitches should be set to reduce the stress on each stitch so as not to put too much sheer on the holdfast.

This sounds like a valuable bit of information and I will look into this as I move along. Speaking of which I looked into crinch nails but couldn't find any here, so I just got a bunch of long thin nails and clipped the heads off and bent them into U shapes, do you think this would be sufficient?

I think I'll be working on my two pair of insoles this weekend, and I'll address that when I post pics.

I'm looking forward to these, thanks.