Olive Oil Vs Neetsfoot Oil

[camano ridge]

Like stated above let the oil migrate into the leather first. I prefer to oil after dying as the dying process tends to draw some of the nutrients out of the leather. I make a lot of holsters my goal is not to soften the holster just to put some nutrients back in the leather. I use finger tip application only. Just a light oiling.

[Catfan63]

Thanks, Camano Ridge!

[oltoot]

My experience from repair of using stuff has been 1) Water is not your enemy but it must be controlled. Dirt is your enemy. Sharp corners of tiny particles can cut and grind and the softer portion attracts and holds unwanted things of all kinds [they have been discussed] 2) 'Dry' leather lacks moisture and the associated tiny 'thingys' that lubricate the fibers and keep them soft enough to bend rather than break in use. 3) A little bit of moisture in the leather enhances the dispersion of the 'thingys' in whatever oil is applied [plant or animal only, please]. 4) Rancidity in storage is just from not using it up fast enough, rancidity on leather from allowing too much to accumulate in places. 5) thread rotting is from allowing too much to accumulate in stitch grooves and from false accusations for age or wear related events. [newer threads don't rot anyway]

New stuff: When leather is tanned correctly, live fluids in skin [that would rot and stink] are replaced with plant compounds that won't. Water content is retained and balance is restored with refined animal products. Good leather is balanced when it comes from the tanning process and manufacturing doesn't have a lot to do to maximize durability. Using means depleting: first moisture through evaporation and then on from there. Responsible use means replacing moisture and 'thingys' and a gradual keeping up with the ravages of use is much preferred to letting things get way out of whack and then trying to get them back.

To the original question, I have added oil darkeners to olive oil with some success but better and easier has been to use a light colored dye first and then oil but !!!!NATURAL IS BETTER!!!

[amcardon]

I only have a fraction of experience compared to the majority of workers on here, and I use neatsfoot fairly exclusively, but have used EVOO in the past. I switched to just neatsfoot after taking a tooling class in Portland, OR and the instructor was asked about which oil is best. The instructor, who was also a chemist, said he would only ever use neatsfoot or legit EVOO since so many other oils are solvent extracted and have some amount of solvent remaining in the oil that can affect the leather. Granted, I don't know much past that, but that was enough to make me not want to try anything else. Can anybody support or debunk this?

[unicornleather]

OILING LEATHER:

NEATSFOOT OIL, is a popular choice to condition modern hides BUT although modern neatsfoot oil is still made from cattle-based products, it has a tendency to speed oxidation of the leather.

If mineral oil or other petroleum-based material is added, the product may be called "neatsfoot oil compound".

Some brands have also been shown to be adulterated with rapeseed oil, soya oil, and other oils.

The addition of mineral oils may lead to more rapid decay of non-synthetic stitching or speed breakdown of the leather itself

AVOID!

You won't always see the damage to the fibres of the hide with the naked eyes and think it's ok to use it but you get down to the cellular level and look at the fibres under a microscope of hide oiled with neatsfoot and you'll see what I mean.

Don't use just oil of any kind on veg tanned hide, use fats,waxes and greases.I have posted a leather conditioner recipe in this thread below, post number 29.

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=46931&page=2

Oz

[NVLeatherWorx]

Been using Pure Neetsfoot Oil for over 40 years and never had an issue with it creating discoloration, splotchy patches, or even breaking down the leather or linen thread. I have also used the technique of pre-heating my oil to about 85 degrees before applying and ensuring that it is applied lightly and evenly. I give it a 24 "curing" period and give it another light application and another 24 hours "curing" period. If the item is to be dyed then I will do the oiling after the dye has been applied and it is has "cured" for 24 hours.

Now, it is a fact that if you over oil anything that it will cause problems with the leather. You will start off with a finished product that is excessively stretchy/gummy, you will have major dye/stain color rub-off, any top coatings of acrylic, resolene, other conditioners will not have an effect (because they can't penetrate the fibers), and it will start to become rancid after awhile. And this applies to any of the oils that are intended to be used on leather, including Olive Oil. However, if applied properly you will find that your finished projects will have a much longer lifespan.

Regarding the use of the "adulterated" products; wouldn't the addition of any flammable petroleum based product (i.e. kerosene) turn a natural product into that very "adulterated" product? And of major consideration, is it wise to treat leather with a flammable product? Again, everyone will have their own way to doing their reconditioning but for those of us who have spent decades learning our trade, the materials used in our trade, and the proper methods of using these materials, the idea of trying to find the "next best shortcut" or "more economical method" is not something that we venture into unless it is truly beneficial to the improvement of the final product. I have never fallen into the shortcut approach when it comes to the finished works and that is just my way of doing things.

As with every other piece of information taken from the comments of others, find what works for you and if that is the direction that you want to go then go with it. But, it is always important to heed that critical advice or information that could be the difference between successful end products and inevitable failure of a product.

Oltoot has it right, at least as we have been taught over the years, NATURAL IS BETTER!

[RoosterShooter]

One of the reasons I want to get away from Neetsfoot oil COMPOUND is because it does contain petroleum distillates. If I'm working with it in my enclosed shop, in the winter, with a heater going I tend to get a little loopy after using it for several hours. I haven't been 100% happy with Neetsfoot Oil Compound as my product of choice. I guess that's a good sign in that I want to continualy evolve my products into something better.

With that being said, the problem I am having is that I am wanting the final finish to be similar to what you see when you look at a professional english style saddle. I want the leather to 'Pop', and have a nice natural sheen to it, and retain that 'Leather' smell. I have found that with too much neetsfoot oil compound I tend to get the opposite. A dull, dark, chemical smelling leather that is loose and oily feeling. Even though I apply it sparingly, it tends to leave me unimpressed.

I'm wondering if I shouldn't move to more traditional saddle style finishing materials. I've been using Angelus Neetsfoot Oil Compound and Lustre Cream, in that order, since mid-2012. I think I'm ready to step up in my game, and look for something better.

Any advice?

[NVLeatherWorx]

That is why we use PURE Neetsfoot Oil, it is not a compound. You will find that a skilled craftsman stays away from anything that is a compound, a blend, or a synthetic. We use the real stuff and have done so for years.

[RoosterShooter]

What kind of finish do you use to give it a satin sheen,

[NVLeatherWorx]

I apply a 50/50 blend of water and Acrylic Resolene for most of the stuff that I make. There are some that get a double application of Clear-Lac leather lacquer but you have to be careful with that one as you can overdo it real easy. The 50/50 blend is the most popular among most of the craftsmen that I know and you will find that it is discussed almost daily within these forums. The biggest trick to use when applying any acrylic finish is to ensure that your applicator (it is recommended that you use a sponge) is damp before you start applying your acrylic. That is given as a standard instruction on just about ever brand that I have seen over the years yet is the most common to be overlooked by the end user. I rarely use Leather Balm or Tan-Kote but there are times when the project calls for it so it is always on-hand.

[RoosterShooter]

I've heard a lot of Amish people locally using Obenauf's LP. Would that be an option as long as I apply it sparingly? I don't want a limp leather, but one that retains it's stiffness.

[NVLeatherWorx]

If you are making products that are exposed to extreme (and continuous) weather conditions then that would be an okay item. However, if you are making common use/personal accessory items then you don't really need to go to that extreme; Pure Neetsfoot Oil will do the trick of getting the conditioning where it needs to be and if applied properly does not cause the leather to go limp. You typically only find that issue when it has been oiled excessively or it was already a more flexible material.

[RoosterShooter]

I'm making rugged outdoor use products that ranchers and woodsmen use. I'm thinking I might try the Obenauf's.

[NVLeatherWorx]

Give it a try and see how it works for you. If it is a solid product I may look at using it for my pet products. Have a Happy New Year and a prosperous 2015.

[unicornleather]

Been using Pure Neetsfoot Oil for over 40 years and never had an issue with it creating discoloration, splotchy patches, or even breaking down the leather or linen thread. I have also used the technique of pre-heating my oil to about 85 degrees before applying and ensuring that it is applied lightly and evenly. I give it a 24 "curing" period and give it another light application and another 24 hours "curing" period. If the item is to be dyed then I will do the oiling after the dye has been applied and it is has "cured" for 24 hours.

Now, it is a fact that if you over oil anything that it will cause problems with the leather. You will start off with a finished product that is excessively stretchy/gummy, you will have major dye/stain color rub-off, any top coatings of acrylic, resolene, other conditioners will not have an effect (because they can't penetrate the fibers), and it will start to become rancid after awhile. And this applies to any of the oils that are intended to be used on leather, including Olive Oil. However, if applied properly you will find that your finished projects will have a much longer lifespan.

Regarding the use of the "adulterated" products; wouldn't the addition of any flammable petroleum based product (i.e. kerosene) turn a natural product into that very "adulterated" product? And of major consideration, is it wise to treat leather with a flammable product? Again, everyone will have their own way to doing their reconditioning but for those of us who have spent decades learning our trade, the materials used in our trade, and the proper methods of using these materials, the idea of trying to find the "next best shortcut" or "more economical method" is not something that we venture into unless it is truly beneficial to the improvement of the final product. I have never fallen into the shortcut approach when it comes to the finished works and that is just my way of doing things.

As with every other piece of information taken from the comments of others, find what works for you and if that is the direction that you want to go then go with it. But, it is always important to heed that critical advice or information that could be the difference between successful end products and inevitable failure of a product.

Oltoot has it right, at least as we have been taught over the years, NATURAL IS BETTER!

Some good points there and you hit the nail right on the head about over oiling and also using neatsfoot for over 40 years. It's ok on older hides, newer modern hides have changed in the way they are produced so much, all in the name of progress of course, that neatsfoot is simply not good for modern hides. Glycerine saddle soap used to be good on old hides years ago too but now on modern hides the Ph is wrong. Over here in the UK it is anyway.

I have seen some awful treatment of leather on another forum recently, one guy dunking his harness in 5 gallons of oil for 48 hours then drying it off in front of his furnace as well as someone else burying their new saddle in the yard in sand for a few days to "soften" it!

I gave up with that one!

Lastly, one of the more modern used commercial leather conditioners which everyone rates and raves about over here has this as it's ingredients:

DESTILLATES (PETROLEUM) HYDROTREATED LIGHT PARAFFINIC

PETROLATUM

SOLVENT-REFINED LIGHT AND HEAVY PARAFFINICS

PARAFFIN

HYDROGENATED MICROCRYSTALLINE WAX

CERA MICROCRISTALLINA

LANOLIN

PERSEA GRATISSIMA (AVOCADO) OIL

CERA ALBA

PARFUM

CI 12700

The last one CE 12700 is a yellow dye they use because they don't have any beeswax in it so have to fake the colour. This is simply for OUR benefit and not the leather it is applied to, also I looked into the data that comes with this product and it states it's code 4 which is a "to be rinsed off product use only"

So, one has to beg to ask, what the hell are they doing putting this in leather conditioner that is going to come in to contact with your hands, your leather and in saddlery your horse?

WHAT is in it to make it a "rinse off product use " only?

I have heard of 2 horses recently that have had allergic reactions to this product.

Perfume is not needed either, it's there to disguise the smell of the paraffin etc!

WHY can't people just use natural products, I make my own leather conditioner, it's simple, natural, easy to make and half the cost of the rubbish that's out there like the one above.

Edited January 18, 2015 by unicornleather

[NVLeatherWorx]

Ding, Ding, Ding! Thank you so much unicornleather for bringing this to light. And the message here is simple: know your materials; know your products; READ the ENTIRE label of any product that comes in a can, a bottle, a jar, a tube, or any other form of packaging so that you know HOW it is supposed to be used and then USE IT THE WAY IT WAS INTENDED. And most important of all (and every label for leather work products says it) "test on a scrap piece of material" to make sure that the product does not create a negative color effect or other damage to your finished project/items.

I was taught decades ago (and it still applies today, even more than ever) that if the base material is of a purely natural source and fabrication (which quality vegetable-tanned leather is) then you should only treat it with the same quality of conditioners and oils to ensure that it maintains it's material integrity and lasts for generations to come. And to support this statement I have only to visit my local Historical Society where they have on display a natural cowhide leather hat box that was made by a craftsman in 1846 (it is etched inside the box) which was tanned using the processes of that time (and we pretty much know that we didn't have the "chemical dependency" that we have now) and was conditioned using the fats and oils obtained from the animal. It is in perfect condition today and still shows all of the intricate design elements, inlay work, and craftsmanship of that time, without any loss to material integrity. I have personally been able to put my hands on this item as I have solid relationship with the Society and I can tell you for a fact that this leather is just as conditioned today as it was over 100 years ago and there is no rot or brittleness to any portion of this item. Can you say that in 10 years about anything made today with a lower grade of tanned leather that has been conditioned with anything less than natural? I dare say, "NO".

[unicornleather]

Totally agree NVLeatherWorx, I have hides I have dressed in my workshop with my own leather conditioner I make which are all natural ingredients and they are as good today as they were when I bought them nearly 30 years ago. The saddlery I manufacture is all treated with this product and will last decades if treated correctly.

I even make some of my own fats and waxes that I use in it so I know how pure they are.

Can't beat the "old ways"

Edited January 20, 2015 by unicornleather

[RoosterShooter]

So, here's a couple of questions for you guys! You are waaayyy more 'seasoned' than I as I've only been doing leatherwork as a business for 6 years or so, and as a youngster I followed the 'Amish Way' of doing it as they were my mentors.

I'm using modern veg tan Hermann Oak leather.

I wish to have a rich dark tone to it, and it stay that way, without turning the leather into a baseball glove!

Lastly, I want to use something that's not going to leach into my bloodstream and cause me problems 20 yrs. down the road.

I currently have to heavily oil my holsters and outdoor products to the 'Fine Line' of over-oiling them in order to get the hue that I like. Here is what I'm after without all of the overoiling that I've been doing ....

For the record ... I'm linking my site and I own rights to it.

http://www.panthercreekgunleather.com/collections/frontpage/products/woodsman-chest-rig

What do I use that doesn't contain petroleum distillates or harmful chemicals?

Edited January 28, 2015 by RoosterShooter

[NVLeatherWorx]

If it were me personally, I would use PURE Neatsfoot Oil, not the Compound product. I would oil it very well on the grain side and give it a few coatings to make sure that it got in good and deep. To get the tanned tone you then hang it outside in the sunlight and allow it tan (leather will tan just like our own skin, but thank goodness it doesn't burn and we have to hear about it for the next week). Pure Olive oil will also give you a deeper color but it can sometimes get real dark. I too use Hermann Oak leather and it is already a russet color when you compare it to some of those Albino looking leathers (which are tanned outside the U.S. just so everybody knows). Neither of these products contain the toxic stuff so you should be good and the only "leaching" effect you may see is if you over oil the item you will see some oil residuals (but it washes out pretty good. You can also use any NATURAL conditioner that has been designed specifically for leather if you run across them.

[RoosterShooter]

I might try Olive Oil. Do I need to look for Extra Virgin, or simply Pure Olive Oil?

[NVLeatherWorx]

Pure Olive Oil is fine as it is all natural with nothing added.

[pepeunidos]

Reading this thread with interest - if applying olive oil prior to dyeing, I want that Sheridan style color, so I intend to do this in this sequence right after tooling:

apply olive oil light light coat let dry for a few hours

add background dye (water based) let dry

add resist (supersheen) let dry 24 hours

add antique gel ( water based ) let dry 24 hours

buff like crazy

add super sheen top coat

Would anyone have any advise or suggestions on this sequence? Thanks for your time.

pepeunidos

 

[pepeunidos]

On December 31, 2014 at 1:36 PM, NVLeatherWorx said:

I apply a 50/50 blend of water and Acrylic Resolene for most of the stuff that I make. 

Would you recommend thinning Supershene to this consistency as well? Just wondering if anyone's tried this.

PepeUnidos

[packjac]

I inherited a number of deerskin pouches from my father when he died. The leather is thin but very nice, about 50 years old at least, and a doe shin creamy color. I was sure nothing had been done to it for those 50+ years, so I applied  a very small amount of extra virgin olive oil on one of the pouches using a folded piece of paper towel. The oil immediately soaked in between the stitching, and by the next morning it had filled in any spaces that I was not able to reach with the paper towel. 

It has now been a week since I did the deed, and the deerskin pouch is beautiful. The olive oil darkened it from a creamy white to a leather- looking brown, and somehow it looks healthier. There is no olive oil smell, nor is there a leather smell, but there never was a leather smell to the pouches anyhow. I was concerned that the oil might turn rancid, but this conversation on this site has been very helpful regarding that. As a result, I don't feel hesitant to use the oil on the other pouches, though I will probably wait a few months just to be sure all is well with the first one. I'll upload before and after photographs when I get the chance. 

So thanks for the conversation. It is one of the online few that stays respectfully professional. And I'm so impressed that there is actually some real data presented and discussed. Way to go.  Jack      

[Burkhardt]

10 hours ago, packjac said:

I inherited a number of deerskin pouches from my father when he died. The leather is thin but very nice, about 50 years old at least, and a doe shin creamy color. I was sure nothing had been done to it for those 50+ years, so I applied  a very small amount of extra virgin olive oil on one of the pouches using a folded piece of paper towel. The oil immediately soaked in between the stitching, and by the next morning it had filled in any spaces that I was not able to reach with the paper towel. 

It has now been a week since I did the deed, and the deerskin pouch is beautiful. The olive oil darkened it from a creamy white to a leather- looking brown, and somehow it looks healthier. There is no olive oil smell, nor is there a leather smell, but there never was a leather smell to the pouches anyhow. I was concerned that the oil might turn rancid, but this conversation on this site has been very helpful regarding that. As a result, I don't feel hesitant to use the oil on the other pouches, though I will probably wait a few months just to be sure all is well with the first one. I'll upload before and after photographs when I get the chance. 

So thanks for the conversation. It is one of the online few that stays respectfully professional. And I'm so impressed that there is actually some real data presented and discussed. Way to go.  Jack      

Check out at the top of the page or on link these folks are doing a bunch of different oil tests on leather currently.