No Welt Fork Cover

[mworthan]

Hello,

I know I have seen threads with this topic covered but cannot find anything. Probably lost in the great crash. My question is... "What are the limits to swell shape that a fork cover can be asked to gather at the base trying to do a "no-welt" cover? Is it asking too much to try this with an Association type swell? Also, in a more general vein, how to most of you approach getting it done?

Thanks,

Mike

[TroyWest]

Hello,

I know I have seen threads with this topic covered but cannot find anything. Probably lost in the great crash. My question is... "What are the limits to swell shape that a fork cover can be asked to gather at the base trying to do a "no-welt" cover? Is it asking too much to try this with an Association type swell? Also, in a more general vein, how to most of you approach getting it done?

Thanks,

Mike

An association can be covered with no welt. I've done it many times. I dont have time to explain at the moment. I'll answer later.

[bruce johnson]

I am looking forward to hearing how Troy does it too. I try to go with no welts whenever I can. I can do most all of the modified Associations and Associations without welts now too. I had a couple that beat me last year and I had to go with welts, but that was leather tannage issue.

I pick my cover from the low belly in the middle with the back of the cover to the bottom of the side. I soak it and leave it sweat for maybe a half hour and air for 15-30 minutes. I was shown to run it over the horn and start to lay it over the swells. I just sort of use my hands to form over the swell points but not to pull on the edges to stretch it over. That pulling stretches the edges and makes for more to gather up later. I kind of push it around into I have the top third or so of the swells pretty formed by hand. It is more of push and compress deal. I figure where to make my handhole cuts. Then I pull it off and go to the kitchen sink. I give it a good shot of running warm water until the cover feels warm, but not hot. I lay it back on and start to form more of it. I kind of divide the slack into one third/two thirds and tack the middle of the of the fork below the swell-bar joint. One third is from the nail around to the front, two thirds from the nail back to the handhole. I work the front first and compress as much as I can with my hands and some straight and concave slickers. I start at the top and work down. I divide the bubble in half and tack that. Then I work each bubble like before and tack. Usually that is enough for the front. I do the other front and then start on the backs same way. The back side should be a little spongier leather and compress easier. I divide the slack evenly, tack and work that down. On those bubbles I might divide them into thirds and end up with 6 bubbles total on the back to work.

As the leather dries it gets a little more moldable, so I don't panic if it doesn't lay right in when wet. An hour and or more later that bubble I have been chasing for 3 or 4 minutes will lay right down. If it dries too much, I will sponge on warm water again. When It almost dry and normal color I pull my nails and take the cover up. I slather on the glue to the leather and swells and set it back again. It reforms pretty easy this time. I work it back down with the slickers, shoe hammer on a piece of scrap skirting, and lower with the heel of the shoe hammer to bond it.

[mworthan]

Thanks Bruce for the detailed instructions and tips. You spent a lot of time putting that together and I appreciate that. I was wondering what you use for glue on the cover? Some say white PVA, others say Barge put on wet.

Troy, I look forward to hearing back from you as well. Take your time and respond when you get the chance. I appreciate all of the time, all of you take to share your knowledge. Very generous.

Best Regards,

Mike

[bruce johnson]

Mike,

I am using Renia cement right now, but haved Barge in the past.

[mworthan]

Mike,

I am using Renia cement right now, but haved Barge in the past.

Bruce,

Thanks for the reply. I can't find the distributor in the US just by "Google-ing" it. I assume it is a superior product or maybe safer to use inside a confined space.

Thanks,

Mike

[TroyWest]

Sorry for the delay. Was gonna answer last night and our internet was down. My method is very similar to Bruces. One main difference is I take my swell cover down a bit with my band knife. It levels it and thins it to about 10 Oz. I roll it a bit on the bench to break down the fibers.Then I fit it. Usually roll the front under like on a wade. Put it back on wet but not dripping water. Spread glue (all purpose) all in front and in the handhold and well out left and right of the horn. Nails in front at the base of the gullet making sure to center horn hole, slightly in front of the horn, Then I cram as much leather in the handhole as can. I take my dog pliers and pull as much as possible making sure not to pull too much straight down from the horn so the hole is not pulled too far in back of the horn. I also pull to the left and right in the handhole. Nail in the front under the gullet. Now I have slack to the right and left of the swell. I put a sheepskin on my bench, set the tree at an angle on the corner and hold it there with my body. Then I take my rubbing stick and push down from top of swell to the bottom, then push to front and then to rear several times getting the cover to conform to the swell. Then take my large french hammer hand hammer on a piece of leather so as not to damage the cover. Just forming the cover all around to the swell. I then spread glue all up under the side I'm working on . I usually do this before I start shaping. Put it on the leather and the swell. Then I try to split the difference with the slack and put a nail at the base, center of swell. As a side note, I try to direct my nails more into the base of the swell rather that into the bar.Then split the difference between that nail and the front nail, pushing down with my rubbing stick and hammering with french hammer. I use the back of the hammer a lot doing this.You just keep doing this between the nails until it is down. It is not as difficult as it may sound. As it dries you can go back and hammer down any slight bumps. It will cover very nicely.

Best of luck,

Troy

[mworthan]

Thanks Troy,

I put these things into an outlined format for myself. I like to keep a binder with notes and these sorts of tips and advice. If I may impose, I would like to paste that in and have a few questions regarding some of the fine points. The steps are numbered and most of the answers should be yes and no. Here it is...

1. One main difference is I take my swell cover down a bit with my band knife. It levels it and thins it to about 10 Oz. I do not own one. Should I purchase lighter leather for this?

2. I roll it a bit on the bench to break down the fibers.

3. Then I fit it. – mark it and cut to fit (as close as possible)?

4. Usually roll the front under like on a wade. – Scalloped edge – no lip, right or are you actually doing a folded edge (wouldn't think so on an Assn Swell, too rounded, not defined edge)?

5. Put it back on wet but not dripping water.

6. Spread glue (all purpose) all in front and in the handhold and well out left and right of the horn. – left and right of the handhole in the back?

7. Nails in front at the base of the gullet making sure to center horn hole, slightly in front of the horn,

8. Then I cram as much leather in the handhole as can.

9. I take my dog pliers and pull as much as possible making sure not to pull too much straight down from the horn so the hole is not pulled too far in back of the horn. I also pull to the left and right in the handhole. – to take out slack along the back of the swell?

10. Nail in the front under the gullet. – nail along the front edge, correct? Now I have slack to the right and left of the swell.

11. I put a sheepskin on my bench,

12. set the tree at an angle on the corner and hold it there with my body. – Along the edge of the bench, hold with your belly?

13. Then I take my rubbing stick and push down from top of swell to the bottom,

14. then push to front and then to rear several times getting the cover to conform to the swell. – from the centerline of the swell to conform along the centerline?

15. Then take my large french hammer hand hammer on a piece of leather so as not to damage the cover.

16. Just forming the cover all around to the swell.

17. I then spread glue all up under the side I'm working on . I usually do this before I start shaping. Put it on the leather and the swell.

18. Then I try to split the difference with the slack and put a nail at the base, center of swell. As a side note, I try to direct my nails more into the base of the swell rather that into the bar.

19. Then split the difference between that nail and the front nail, pushing down with my rubbing stick and hammering with french hammer. I use the back of the hammer a lot doing this.

20. You just keep doing this between the nails until it is down. It is not as difficult as it may sound.

21. As it dries you can go back and hammer down any slight bumps. It will cover very nicely.

Thanks again for all of the help and advice. I'll try to pay it along to others if I get the chance and brag on what nice folks ya'll are.

Mike

Just realized that the red questions didn't stay red when I posted. the questions are on numbers 1, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 12 & 14 at the end of your posted step.

[TroyWest]

Thanks Troy,

I put these things into an outlined format for myself. I like to keep a binder with notes and these sorts of tips and advice. If I may impose, I would like to paste that in and have a few questions regarding some of the fine points. The steps are numbered and most of the answers should be yes and no. Here it is...

1. One main difference is I take my swell cover down a bit with my band knife. It levels it and thins it to about 10 Oz. I do not own one. Should I purchase lighter leather for this?

I wouldn't. You can skive what you have with a french edger. A band knife just levels it perfectly and without effort. I'm just telling you what I do.

2. I roll it a bit on the bench to break down the fibers.

Yes

3. Then I fit it. – mark it and cut to fit (as close as possible)?

This includes step #4, but yes

4. Usually roll the front under like on a wade. – Scalloped edge – no lip, right or are you actually doing a folded edge (wouldn't think so on an Assn Swell, too rounded, not defined edge)?

I do a folded edge. I make my own trees and put a nice edge. You can do a scalloped edge. It's OK. I just like a folded edge on a cowboy saddle. Just my personal

preference. You might find 10 other guys who would disagree.

5. Put it back on wet but not dripping water.

I let it get totally wet. I just pull it out of the water and let it drip dry on the sink for a minute.

6. Spread glue (all purpose) all in front and in the handhold and well out left and right of the horn. – left and right of the handhole in the back?

I put the front on over the horn before I spread glue. That way I dont get glue on the horn. I can then lift the part up to spread glue, like in front of the horn because

I'm fixing to nail it down at the base of the gullet, and behind the horn because I'm pulling it into the handhole.

7. Nails in front at the base of the gullet making sure to center horn hole, slightly in front of the horn,

Yes, because I'm about to pull it hard into the handhole and that will level the hole at the horn base.

8. Then I cram as much leather in the handhole as can.

Yes

9. I take my dog pliers and pull as much as possible making sure not to pull too much straight down from the horn so the hole is not pulled too far in back of the horn. I also pull to the left and right in the handhole. – to take out slack along the back of the swell?

Yes. You want to make sure your hole at the base of the hole is level.

And yes

10. Nail in the front under the gullet. – nail along the front edge, correct? Now I have slack to the right and left of the swell.

I'm talking about in the handhole here. I have already put a nail on the right and left sides of the front of the gullet up above in step #7

11. I put a sheepskin on my bench,

Yes

12. set the tree at an angle on the corner and hold it there with my body. – Along the edge of the bench, hold with your belly?

Yes. Slim bellies are best here.

13. Then I take my rubbing stick and push down from top of swell to the bottom,

We are cookin' with gas now.....thats a yes.

14. then push to front and then to rear several times getting the cover to conform to the swell. – from the centerline of the swell to conform along the centerline?

Yessir. Then push to the right of that, Then to the left. Just work it with your rubbing stick a few times in all directions.

15. Then take my large french hammer hand hammer on a piece of leather so as not to damage the cover.

Yes... but if you can get your wife to do this you can go get a glass of tea.

16. Just forming the cover all around to the swell.

10-4

17. I then spread glue all up under the side I'm working on . I usually do this before I start shaping. Put it on the leather and the swell.

Right on.

18. Then I try to split the difference with the slack and put a nail at the base, center of swell. As a side note, I try to direct my nails more into the base of the swell rather that into the bar.

Yes. A swell is a large laminated block of wood that can take nails well. I see guys drive nails around into the bar 3/8" to 1/4" apart. I try to use as few nails as will do the job.

19. Then split the difference between that nail and the front nail, pushing down with my rubbing stick and hammering with french hammer. I use the back of the hammer a lot doing this.

Yes. My french hammer has a wide flat dull back end. Like a lot of people I suppose.

20. You just keep doing this between the nails until it is down. It is not as difficult as it may sound.

Yes

21. As it dries you can go back and hammer down any slight bumps. It will cover very nicely.

Yes again. This will be on your final exam and will go on your permanent record.

Thanks again for all of the help and advice. I'll try to pay it along to others if I get the chance and brag on what nice folks ya'll are.

Mike

Just realized that the red questions didn't stay red when I posted. the questions are on numbers 1, 3, 4, 6, 9, 10, 12 & 14 at the end of your posted step.

[mworthan]

Fantastic Troy!

Can't tell you how much I appreciate both your and Bruce's help. You seem to have a great sense of humor (the details got progressively "better"). Seems like you are having fun. I don't see how, but I hope I can repay the favor sometime. I do a lot of design, CAD and casework. PM or email me if I can help ya'll with some sort of special need you may have.

Thanks Again,

Mike

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Mike, Troys method is very much like mine, and the differences are so minimal it is not worth mentioning, especially as each time I do it, it seems to be a "well that's different, guess I'll need to do this, kind of a thing". Once you've done it a few times you'll get the hang of it. Like both of the guys said, it's not that difficult, just takes a little patience, and sticktoativeness, excuss the pun! Good luck!

Bondo Bob

[kseidel]

This has been an interesting topic, and I have not had time to reply. I will put a one piece swell cover on most swells without a lot of undercut for the leg. All roper styles up to 15" wide, Associations up to 14", BW with 8" high gullet up to 14" and with 9" gullet up to 13". Will James and Tiptons up to 13". I have done a low moose 14", but never again! I use welts for "Form Fitters", Lewellens, Ellensburgs, Miles Citys, etc, that have higher corners and lots of under cut leg.

My method of fitting is a little different. I wet fit the swell cover, let it dry, and then take off and trim, skive, and roll front, then re-install and glue for a final fit. This initial fit up takes only 20 -30 minutes. After it dries and shrinks tighter around the swell, it is much easier to get the edges correct and glue in place. Like many others, I also cut the swell cover from the center of the belly with handhole to the bottom. Like Troy, I level the swell thickness to about 10/11 oz. Thicker leather stretches and shrinks more than thin. With the horn hole cut and skived, I wet the cover and roll it up and bend it over the side of the tub, then dunk again and roll the other direction and bend over tub. This loosens up the fibers and allows the leather to get thoroughly wet. Then I pull over the horn and pull both sides straight over the center of the swell from side to side, putting a nail on each side to hold it centered. Then I smooth the slack in front of the horn and down to the front corner where the gullet and bar meet, and put a nail there. I pull some slack to the front... as much as possible without making a big bubble around the gullet front, but keeping the front edge as straight out as possible allowing enough slack to roll under. Then I push as much slack as I can into the hand hole... pulling around from the back of the swell also. Cut and fit corners of hand hole around ground seat. Now I am fitted around horn and front and back and side pinned in place. Now all I have to do is shape the front between the gullet and bottom center, and the back from the ground seat to the bottom center. This is where the "work" comes in. I also use an hammer and piece of leather, as well as rub sticks and such. Curved sticks like the inside of a seat stick also work well. I have had very good results using a stapler to hold the leather in place and work out the bubbles as they hold a wider area than a single nail. If using nails, I only use two or three in each side front and back. On swells with more undercut, I may use a strap or a rope around the bottom edge and thru the gullet to hold and work out the wrinkles. Once this is all fitted, I put in front of a fan, and dry several hours.

When dry, I mark gullet line in front and back and take off. Then I can trim edge and roll front and pink back gullet, and skive all edges to lay smooth under the seat. Then it is ready to glue into place. I put a layer of glue on the swell cover and on the swell. I use contact cement. Let the glue dry. Then wet again... medium moisture, not soaking wet. Then apply a heavy layer of glue to the swell only and put the swell back on using the same order as originally used for fitting, and using the nail holes and hand hole cuts for placement. The wet cement allows the swell cover to slip around and be manipulated into place easily. I usually do not need any nails to hold around the bottom as it will slip right into place, and the cement will hold. I use a spike to stretch the front gullet line tight and nail in place. Nail off the underside of the back gullet, and smooth with rub stick. As it dries, it will shrink a great deal and set real tight.

Troy said it is not as difficult as it sounds, but it is not easy either. But with practice and perseverance, it is possible to make it perfect every time. I do a lot of swells with the seat recessed into the swell, and this is much harder. It is these that make my hands remember all the years fitting saddles and complain!

Great fitting!

Keith

[mworthan]

Gentlemen,

Thanks so much for all of your input and instruction. I have created pdf's of all of your instructions (with some editing using an outline style - not content) and hopefully I captured this in a format that you all are okay with. I wanted to contribute in some way to help further the learning process for others and capture the spirit of all of your willing attitudes toward helping folks like me. I personally like to use this kind of process to create material I can reference later for my own personal use. Hopefully these load up okay. I hope that I can ask again for your help and expertise. If any of you have a problem or suggest a correction I would be happy to make that revision and re-post. Also if any of you want me to remove the instructions for what ever reason, I will do so as well.

Thanks Again,

Mike Worthan

Rome, GA

Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Bruce Johnson.pdf

Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Troy West.pdf

Fitting the Weltless Swell Cover - Keith Seidel.pdf

[Bar C Leather]

You all are just awesome! It's so great to find such helpful fellow crafters and Mike, a special thanks to you for sharing your outlines! )