Saw Something Very Disturbing

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

A coworker showed me part of a video that was shot at a Chinese fur farm. I won't post the link, but it is easily found if you want to check it out. Warning though, the images are very graphic, and very disturbing.

I am not against fur, leather, and animal products in general. What I am opposed to is how these animals are being handled at these farms in China. The dogs, and other animals that they video taped were being skinned ALIVE, then tossed aside into piles to eventually die. I cannot imagine anyone who thinks that this is acceptable. To see those animals struggling under the knife, and howling in pain is horrible to see. He mentioned seeing one video with a cow be skinned the same way. Supposedly it is a faster way to get the skinning done, and doesn't bloody the pelt, I call BS. All I am saying is dispatch the animal in a humane manner before skinning. I also wonder how many women realize that the beautiful white fur on their coat, may very well be dog.

It was noted that China now provides over 50% of the furs used today, even ones used for assembly in other countries. So knowing exactly where your items originate from can be tricky. I didn't hear stats on the leather like we use.

There are some things in life that I could go without seeing, that was one of them. I have thought about what I saw for the last 3 days, and it will be awhile before I can shake those images. Absolutely sickening.

[RooLeadGirl]

im pretty sure ive once seen the video you are talking about.. with the pile of animals still blinking its terrible. You should watch the documentary called "the cove" about the dolphin slayings they do in china also. so very sad. I do know when they kill dogs for meals that they dislocate their shoulders and tie their legs behind their bakc.. and put tin cans on their mouths so they cannot bite... when someone wants to buy one for a meal they burn the hair off while they are alive as they think the meat tastes better if the animal has adrenaline in its system before it dies. Such a sad state of affairs. I dont care about anyone eating any animal if it is killed and treated HUMANELY before its death. disgusting

[KateC]

Come on people. They dont even treat their people humanely. I heard a rumor from a reliable source that most of our outsourcing of leathers which yesterday, by the way, was done in Pakistan, is going to change to China....This is going to be interesting. If youve ever done any alterations on leathers made in China, you will find that it is cut to the barest minimum and what you would expect to be a "seam allowance" is simpley rolled, glued and topstitched. Lord help you if you break a seal to change a zipper.....I'd love to know what glue they are using. To its credit...it doesnt just fall apart, like some shoddy stitching does. I have wondered if its gorilla glue?

[JRedding]

Nice to know our dollars are driving this kind of thing. Isn't this global economy great !!!!

[Hilly]

"Very Disturbing" is too mild of a title for this topic. Just thinking of this really, REALLY wrecked my day.

I don't have a problem with humanely killed food or fur animals. I really think I'd pay good money to see more than a few Chinese skinned in this manner, and tossed on that pile of carcasses to rot.

[HellfireJack]

You don't have to hate Chinese people to abhor and try to stop animal cruelty.

I wish people wouldn't wish death on others because their culture treats animals differently. I know you're just speaking to make a strong vivid point( I hope at least) and I know it's viewed by westerners as cruel but being cruel back is no way to solve the issue. Educate and hope that that culture adopts a more humane method. This kind of talk only encourages people like this to act. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38957020/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

Heck, the Australian's will rip a joey from it's dead mothers pouch and stomp it's head in just so we can have that good strong kangaroo leather we use. Kosher methods of killing animals in the US are pretty rough to watch as well. Chicken farming is pretty abysmal. It happens the world over and violence is not the solution.

Make people aware of the problems, educate, and above all be positive towards those who agree and grow the awareness where the problem is in ways that will make people want to change and speak out when anyone advocates violence or harassment as a solution to cultural differences just the same as you would against animal cruelty.

Understand I'm not saying don't have an opinion. Feel free to think and feel how you want. I'm just saying when it comes to others, don't try to kill them because of that opinion. We've had enough of that in this world.

[Hilly]

You don't have to hate Chinese people to abhor and try to stop animal cruelty.

I wish people wouldn't wish death on others because their culture treats animals differently. I know you're just speaking to make a strong vivid point( I hope at least) and I know it's viewed by westerners as cruel but being cruel back is no way to solve the issue. Educate and hope that that culture adopts a more humane method. This kind of talk only encourages people like this to act. http://www.msnbc.msn...ime_and_courts/

Heck, the Australian's will rip a joey from it's dead mothers pouch and stomp it's head in just so we can have that good strong kangaroo leather we use. Kosher methods of killing animals in the US are pretty rough to watch as well. Chicken farming is pretty abysmal. It happens the world over and violence is not the solution.

Make people aware of the problems, educate, and above all be positive towards those who agree and grow the awareness where the problem is in ways that will make people want to change and speak out when anyone advocates violence or harassment as a solution to cultural differences just the same as you would against animal cruelty.

Understand I'm not saying don't have an opinion. Feel free to think and feel how you want. I'm just saying when it comes to others, don't try to kill them because of that opinion. We've had enough of that in this world.

As if educating those people would make a difference! There is a special place in hell for people like that, and for those that buy animal products from them. Those people know it causes great pain and suffering, yet they do nothing to remedy it. Yes, by all means, I wish them harm. Can't help the way I feel.

[Hennessy]

A coworker showed me part of a video that was shot at a Chinese fur farm. I won't post the link, but it is easily found if you want to check it out. Warning though, the images are very graphic, and very disturbing.

I am not against fur, leather, and animal products in general. What I am opposed to is how these animals are being handled at these farms in China. The dogs, and other animals that they video taped were being skinned ALIVE, then tossed aside into piles to eventually die. I cannot imagine anyone who thinks that this is acceptable. To see those animals struggling under the knife, and howling in pain is horrible to see. He mentioned seeing one video with a cow be skinned the same way. Supposedly it is a faster way to get the skinning done, and doesn't bloody the pelt, I call BS. All I am saying is dispatch the animal in a humane manner before skinning. I also wonder how many women realize that the beautiful white fur on their coat, may very well be dog.

It was noted that China now provides over 50% of the furs used today, even ones used for assembly in other countries. So knowing exactly where your items originate from can be tricky. I didn't hear stats on the leather like we use.

There are some things in life that I could go without seeing, that was one of them. I have thought about what I saw for the last 3 days, and it will be awhile before I can shake those images. Absolutely sickening.

us indians served unborn horse [colts]boil'd in the womb liquids,their most honourable meal .they also ate lots of dog,lewis n clark[explorers] relished dog also by the end of their two year adventure.chinese restrauants are [world wide]always getting caught for cooking cats probably dogs too,i cant help but eat there at least once a month [sorry] think of all the meat thrown away at animal shelters,how sad this couldn't be handled humanely. rabbits horses,snakes etc etc all need humane demise treatment you know even li'l squirrels are eaten.the meat and hide should be open to market thru good enforced regulation eh? ,

[Historybuff]

To be honest, I'm not real concerened with whats happening in other countries. I'm a lot more concerened with what's happening in ours, Gangs, homeless, drugs. I'm afraid that animals arent very high on my priority list and I've spent more than half of my 60 years living outside the contental U.S.. I'm with HENNESSY on this one. I've lived in SE Asia and my family will never go hungry as long as I can 'adopt' a dog.

My only concern as far as the chinese leather is concerened is, is it cheaper and what quality is it?

[Hilly]

I could care less if you want to eat a fetus of some animal. We all eat eggs, which would become a chicken fetus if left in the egg a few days longer. What really bugs me is when an animal isn't dealt with humanely when it comes time to slaughter it. Kosher butchering bugs me. Just sawing through a cows jugular vein while it's looking at you is cruel.

I have a friend who worked in a slaughter house. He was the guy that actually dispatched the cattle. He assured me that the animals (almost always) did not suffer. They hit them in the head with the pneumatic stunner, and they feel no pain while they are hung and bled. Once in a great while, a cow would wake up before it was dead, but almost always, they felt nothing. In cases like this, the line was stopped, and he RAN with the stunner, and hit the cow again, as FAST as possible. He worked there for some time, and killed many tens of thousands of cattle in this way. I have no problem with this.

I've seen cattle killed on more than one occasion. My husband's side of the family are all dairy farmers with freezers full of home butchered beef. I kill deer with a rifle, but only when I have a perfect shot, and won't pull the trigger otherwise. I've given up tons of opportunities to kill a deer just because I hate the thought of an animal suffering at my hand.

[Historybuff]

Hilly, dont misunderstand me. I've also hunted both rifle and bow and enjoyed it thourghly and I've let many more deer pass than I ever took a shot at and I hunted for meat not trophys. I've also helped slaughter hogs and cattle and have eaten cat, opossum, moray eel, iguana and a lot of other animals. My point is ours (the U.S.) is not the only country on this earth and I honestly feel that we have no right to judge any other countrys way of doing things just because we dont agree with it.

Some where along the line a lot of folks here came to think that the U.S. is the world police. I do not, never have and never will believe this.

Please accept this for what it is, a personal opinion. Everyone in our country has and is entiled to their own, and there are very few countries on this earth that have that type of freedom.

[JRedding]

I don't care what culture you're from or where on the globe you call home if you can do what is described in this incident and it doesn't bother you somewhere in your soul there is definately something wrong with you. And if that's the norm in your culture there's something wrong with all of you. I've hunted all my life, was raised on a place where if it was in the freezer we put it there ourselves, I've dispatched horses out of necessity, and pets out of kindness. And there is never a need to do it cruelly, I've been the cause of a lot of animals leaving this earth for one reason or another and even though I was taught to do it with kindness and respect it still stirs something in me and the day it doesn't I'll know there's something wrong with me. A person couldn't have much of a moral compass or they'd know this was wrong without being told, there's no defending this as a cultural thing, it's just an example of being a pathetic human being, neither your culture nor the continent you're standing on is an excuse for being a sorry human being. This kind of thing reminds me of when my granddad used to say " I'm not a religious man but I wouldn't dare do that" now I'll quit ranting and get off the soapbox it's someone elses turn.

[tg lucas]

Just a correction, the documentary "The Cove" actually was filmed in Japan.

[Hilly]

I don't care what culture you're from or where on the globe you call home if you can do what is described in this incident and it doesn't bother you somewhere in your soul there is definately something wrong with you. And if that's the norm in your culture there's something wrong with all of you. I've hunted all my life, was raised on a place where if it was in the freezer we put it there ourselves, I've dispatched horses out of necessity, and pets out of kindness. And there is never a need to do it cruelly, I've been the cause of a lot of animals leaving this earth for one reason or another and even though I was taught to do it with kindness and respect it still stirs something in me and the day it doesn't I'll know there's something wrong with me. A person couldn't have much of a moral compass or they'd know this was wrong without being told, there's no defending this as a cultural thing, it's just an example of being a pathetic human being, neither your culture nor the continent you're standing on is an excuse for being a sorry human being. This kind of thing reminds me of when my granddad used to say " I'm not a religious man but I wouldn't dare do that" now I'll quit ranting and get off the soapbox it's someone elses turn.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

If I ever get to your neck of the woods, I'd like to meet you just to shake your hand! Well, I'd still have to check out your leather workshop...

[simran]

You don't have to hate Chinese people to abhor and try to stop animal cruelty.

I wish people wouldn't wish death on others because their culture treats animals differently. I know you're just speaking to make a strong vivid point( I hope at least) and I know it's viewed by westerners as cruel but being cruel back is no way to solve the issue. Educate and hope that that culture adopts a more humane method. This kind of talk only encourages people like this to act. http://www.msnbc.msn...ime_and_courts/

Heck, the Australian's will rip a joey from it's dead mothers pouch and stomp it's head in just so we can have that good strong kangaroo leather we use. Kosher methods of killing animals in the US are pretty rough to watch as well. Chicken farming is pretty abysmal. It happens the world over and violence is not the solution.

Make people aware of the problems, educate, and above all be positive towards those who agree and grow the awareness where the problem is in ways that will make people want to change and speak out when anyone advocates violence or harassment as a solution to cultural differences just the same as you would against animal cruelty.

Understand I'm not saying don't have an opinion. Feel free to think and feel how you want. I'm just saying when it comes to others, don't try to kill them because of that opinion. We've had enough of that in this world.

Good point made here.

I think it was Ghandi that said the following

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Sim

[HellfireJack]

As if educating those people would make a difference! There is a special place in hell for people like that, and for those that buy animal products from them. Those people know it causes great pain and suffering, yet they do nothing to remedy it. Yes, by all means, I wish them harm. Can't help the way I feel.

Yes educating people makes a difference. You don't have to deal directly with the people who kill the animals. You educate the population and if they change then the practice will eventually end.

We can't sit in the US or whatever country we're from foaming at the mouth wishing harm to people because of some cultural practice that a small group of those people perform 2000 miles away and expect it to end because some person advocates harming others to get vengeance out of spite. Violence is never a solution to ending violence.

As Martin Luther King III said:We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.

[JRedding]

Yes educating people makes a difference. You don't have to deal directly with the people who kill the animals. You educate the population and if they change then the practice will eventually end.

We can't sit in the US or whatever country we're from foaming at the mouth wishing harm to people because of some cultural practice that a small group of those people perform 2000 miles away and expect it to end because some person advocates harming others to get vengeance out of spite. Violence is never a solution to ending violence.

As Martin Luther King III said:We all have to be concerned about terrorism, but you will never end terrorism by terrorizing others.

I really don't think anything that's done or said will change peoples behavior when it comes to something like this, I personally don't have a lot of faith that spreading your word of sunshine is going to grow a lot of pretty flowers and the world will become a beautiful place, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to believe what you do, I've just never seen it work. The sermon about violence never ends violence is another topic, please remember you yourself go to bed comfortably every night safe inside the borders of a country protected by a man with a gun watching over you, it's called our armed forces and like it or not violence is one of their specialties, it's what we fall back on when asking nicely fails.I'm not saying this to advocate the use of violence I'm just pointing out it serves a purpose and we all enjoy some freedoms provided by the old fashioned use of violence to stop violence, sometimes it is the only solution, that's been proven time and time again throughout history. I don't think that statement is very well thought out considering the freedom to have that opinion and voice it without fear was gifted to you by someone willing to use violence when it was necessary and appropriate.

[HellfireJack]

I really don't think anything that's done or said will change peoples behavior when it comes to something like this, I personally don't have a lot of faith that spreading your word of sunshine is going to grow a lot of pretty flowers and the world will become a beautiful place, I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to believe what you do, I've just never seen it work. The sermon about violence never ends violence is another topic, please remember you yourself go to bed comfortably every night safe inside the borders of a country protected by a man with a gun watching over you, it's called our armed forces and like it or not violence is one of their specialties, it's what we fall back on when asking nicely fails.I'm not saying this to advocate the use of violence I'm just pointing out it serves a purpose and we all enjoy some freedoms provided by the old fashioned use of violence to stop violence, sometimes it is the only solution, that's been proven time and time again throughout history. I don't think that statement is very well thought out considering the freedom to have that opinion and voice it without fear was gifted to you by someone willing to use violence when it was necessary and appropriate.

So tell me how many people have you killed for your convictions? How many people have you beaten? How much destruction of property have you committed? I'm going to laugh when you say none. I've discussed and educated countless people on the wrongs of advocating violence on other and taught countless others that animal cruelty is wrong. It'll be extremely laughable for you to sit there saying advocating harm on others is the best solution and you've never actually done it when I sit here telling you that the only effective way to affect change is through education and I know this because I work at educating people and do it all the time. It's one thing to be a real animal activist working hard to affect change. It's quite another to be an arm chair ecoterrorist. The act of advocating violence on others and actually perpetrating it sets the animal rights movement and the hope to end animal cruelty back time and time again. Asking others to stop advocating hurting people because they hurt animals isn't me trying to fart sunshine and roses on you. It's me pointing out that such behavior is negative and does not help the cause one iota. All it does is foment hatred and in many occasions brings about racial tension.

Violence does serve a purpose as a last ditch effort when reasonable people can not find a solution to their problems. Unfortunately sitting around on your duff calling for the harm and death of people because they treat animals differently than you do doesn't quite fit that scenario of "when it was necessary and appropriate." Our fight for independence wasn't just someone standing up one day and saying "Screw you Brittian. We don't like that you're different from us. Time for you to die." It took years of poor treatment and the murder of countless settlers and natural born Americans to bring about a desire for change. Nothing stops my fellow Americans from killing me. It's a misguided belief that the military keeps me safe in my home and is silly at best. The military protects our borders and fights outside of those borders for whatever reason the government demands. People get killed in the US every minute of every day. Either our military sucks and is entirely ineffective or you've been watching "A Few Good Men" a little too often. Not to mention that if our military truly watched over us and tucked us all into bed every night then there's no chance the harm you advocate could ever happen to others.

[JRedding]

Your beliefs that the men and women of our military do nothing to keep you safe, and our military "sucks" I'd be careful where you plop your soapbox down and start babbling that or you'll likely get a first hand lesson in violence from someone.You describe yourself as " A real animal activist working hard to affect change " let me guess, we shouldn't have a slaughterhouse for horses we should let them run free until they die of old age as long as it's not in Pennsylvania because you have nowhere to put them, some good ol' rancher somewhere should get his cows out of the way so it can be like you want it. I'm sure you spend all your spare time and money running a shelter for homeless dogs and cats in your back yard right ? I suspect you're the guy who tells everyone how it should be, even though you probably have no experience with livestock yourself. You've read up on the subject and you're gonna' educate all the poor dumb people who tend livestock for a living that they're doing it all wrong. My momma' taught me "never argue with an idiot " so I'm done with you pard'

[HellfireJack]

Your beliefs that the men and women of our military do nothing to keep you safe, and our military "sucks" I'd be careful where you plop your soapbox down and start babbling that or you'll likely get a first hand lesson in violence from someone.You describe yourself as " A real animal activist working hard to affect change " let me guess, we shouldn't have a slaughterhouse for horses we should let them run free until they die of old age as long as it's not in Pennsylvania because you have nowhere to put them, some good ol' rancher somewhere should get his cows out of the way so it can be like you want it. I'm sure you spend all your spare time and money running a shelter for homeless dogs and cats in your back yard right ? I suspect you're the guy who tells everyone how it should be, even though you probably have no experience with livestock yourself. You've read up on the subject and you're gonna' educate all the poor dumb people who tend livestock for a living that they're doing it all wrong. My momma' taught me "never argue with an idiot " so I'm done with you pard'

I notice you chose not to answer the question. How many people have you killed? How many have you beaten? How much property damage have you commited for your "cause" to end animal cruelty?

I've fed people at homeless shelters and raised money and food donations. I've worked to teach people that attacking others for their cultural beliefs is wrong. What did you say you've done for animal cruelty? I don't recall? The only thing you've done that I can see is try to dehumanize people you see as wrong so other people might join in on your hate fest.

I didn't say the military doesn't protect us. I straight out said that the military protects our borders and our interests elsewhere. It sure the heck doesn't protect me in my home as you suggested. I've yet to see the army marching down my street keeping me safe at home. And it's funny I don't remember tucking any civilians in while I servered my four years. All you're doing here is trying to insult someone who has no problem voicing an opinion that is contrary to yours. I've worked a dairy farm. I've castrated calves, broken horses and hunted and fished my whole life. None of that changes the fact that the only way to end animal cruelty is to educate people. Violence does nothing but turn animal rights into an us -vs them hate fest. We're all people and we have to treat people like people rather than turning them against each other.

You can sit and try to make up my arguments and incorrectly tell everyone who I am and what you think I may or may not have done but I guarantee you're no where close to reality. I've already stated what I've done for animal cruelty. When you have to tell people what their argument is in order to try to win the argument you've already failed. As for your insults, you can keep them. It shows exactly how childish and immature you are. You throwing a tantrum and screaming that you're going to take your ball and leave because I'm a big dummy really hurts me. I'm devastated. What next? Are you going to tell me how I'm like Hitler? Any other personal attacks you want to get in? Feel free. Show how you're all about attacking rather than any attempt at civil discussion.

As far as I can tell you're nothing but an armchair ecoterrorist wishing death and hate on people. Like the world needs another one of those. When you have an actual salient point other than "Nuh uh you're wrong!!" come see me.

Edited February 14, 2011 by HellfireJack

[JRedding]

LMAO,

[HellfireJack]

That's the answer I expected really. All bark and no bite. Not a salient point to be found in any of your rants.

[wildrose]

Time to take a deep breath. Some good points have been raised here, so let's just agree to disagree, huh?

[HellfireJack]

I always take a deep breath before responding to this kind of nonsense WIldrose. Notice the lack of insults on my part and avoidance of outright personal attacks. I have no problem with agreeing to disagree. I do however have a problem with someone trying to tell me who I am, what I do, how I think and what I feel and then calling me names for it while avoiding and deflecting any questions they're asked but, its typical of the mentality when it comes to people who advocate violence on others to solve cultural problems. I deal with people like this on a day to day basis. I've had my life threatened over a dozen times for suggesting people not harm others because of their feelings for animals. This isn't anywhere close to that so no big deal.

[wildrose]

Enough "discussion" on all fronts. With that, I'm going to close this topic and chat it over with the other mods.