saddle patterns

[tackmaker]

does anyone have or know where to get a pattern for a 17' flat seat cutter? any help would be greatly appreciated.thanks.I' having trouble with the skirts.

Edited January 14, 2008 by tackmaker

[ryan]

You could try Bruce Cheaney. I think his site is prosaddles.com otherwise just google him.

[YRsaddles]

Do you have the Al Stolman books..there are patterns in the books that can be modified to make any patterns you want. Making "NEW" patterns is the fun part in what we do..you can put your own to any saddle you build.

Dave

[tackmaker]

Do you have the Al Stolman books..there are patterns in the books that can be modified to make any patterns you want. Making "NEW" patterns is the fun part in what we do..you can put your own to any saddle you build.

Dave

yes i have the stolman books,bruce chaney video,bill gomer video,harry's book i just can't firgue out the saddle skirt thing.thanks judy

[Don101]

Hi Judy i know what you are going through ive nearly comppleted my first saddle and didnt have one template to use so i made each template as i went along i saw a lot of good ways to do things on ClayB pic site and adopted some things from the pics to suite what i was building, the way i made the skirt trmplate was to lay underneath the tree a large card sheet, centered it to the center under the tree, squared it of at the bottom then clamped the tree on to the paper with the drawdown and marked the paper with my fingernail pressing the card to take the shape of the tree underneath then marked roughly the front curve at the top and along the bars, removed the card and drew it correctly and cut it out, reemounted it under the tree and checked if every thing was ok, probbably a long winded way to do it but not having the experience or someone to show me another way to do it that hoe i did it by checking and then checking again, Don

[Hidemechanic]

The way I learned was that most paterns were generally what you would work from after checking that the patern would cover the part of the tree you needed the part for, then you could cut the leather and fit it to the tree. I think that the only time you can cut directly from a patern and apply it to a tree is when the patern is made for that tree as with saddle kits. That's if you haven't already made your own pats for a specific tree.

For skirts, after casing I align the skirt(in leather) where I want it under the tree on the draw down, when I like where it sits I tack nail it at the bottom of the gullet and just behind the cantle. I flip the tree over, block in the bar, tack nail the skirt to the bar with tacks placed about 2" apart, flip it back to right side up. I shape the skirt a bit to lay the way I will want it and let it dry(actually I remove it first and use it to copy the other side)Point is when I leave it to dry I come back with my carpenters level, and level the stand and tree then use a strait edge to mark a level line at the bottom of the skirt. I use my framing square to get my virtical line front and back. This can be different depending on the stye of saddle but I won't go into that here. Actually I was taught to stand at the rear of the tree and with a strait edge almost eye ball my back lines then the front. I guess I'm not really trying to show you 'How To' do it this way but show that there have been other ways to do saddle parts other than with paterns. I left a lot out but Don 101 has a pretty good take on it. I saw the same basics with other saddle makers. To be honest the way I was taught I have to go the the nail salon to have a nice nail put on my thumb cause that's what was used to make my marks with.

Good luck.GHackett

[YRsaddles]

yes i have the stolman books,bruce chaney video,bill gomer video,harry's book i just can't firgue out the saddle skirt thing.thanks judy

So what are you having problems with??? the over all shape..round skirts? square skirts? old timer? let me know how to help and I try my best to get you on the right track.

Dave

[steve mason]

The best advise I can give is, to become a saddlemaker, you must learn to make you own patterns. Do this right from the start, or else you will end up depending on other for all you patterns. Making patterns is a large part of making saddles.

To make a pattern for a skirt is fairly straight forward, first you block one skirt on to the tree, (cut your leather bigger than the finished skirt size) once the leather is blocked in place figure out what measurements you need, for example only measure a 2" from front bar tip, then 3.5" from back bar tip or 6.5" from back of cantle, measure down from bottom of front and back bar pads, then take a straight edge and get your bottom skirt line true to the world,( this is a tricky line to get straight, if you use a straight edge on the bench then block it on the saddle it will not end up straight) now if you are doing square skirts, take your straight edge and mark your front and back line according to your measurements, then use a set circle to make your corners consistent (I use an empty thread spool) use this to make the corners on the skirts and also the rear jockeys and the front seat jockey. Once you are happy with your line sketched on the leather, take it off the saddle, flatten it out and trace it to the other side and then block them both on and you are done. The distance you measure from the bar tips front and back and how far down is up to you the saddle maker, that will determine your line on the saddle, and that is a very individual thing.

his method of fitting skirts is the way a large number of custom saddle makers fit their skirts on every saddle they make, if you trees are consistent you can get to the point where you can use a paper pattern that will get the job done for you.

another thing to remember is "they make new cows every day" so if you screw it up you can always get a new hide and start over.

Hope this helps, if you have more questions feel free to ask.

[wood]

What Steve said is how a guy taught me to do it. That bottom straight line is tough, I still have a time with it. I also always look at and study other saddles. I pick out depths and lengths that are appealing to my eye and try to remember what they looked like when I get home.

[skinner]

If you have a smaller pattern you can stretch it by cutting it in half, and like steve said keep your end measurements correct and tape the 2 pieces together with a third piece of paper. I've done this with alot of our patterns,{ skirt, ground seat ect.}

[tackmaker]

So what are you having problems with??? the over all shape..round skirts? square skirts? old timer? let me know how to help and I try my best to get you on the right track.

Dave

i didn't know how much to leave at the back and how much to leave at front of the skirts. also which kind of rigging is best for a cutting saddle?

[bruce johnson]

My general rule of thumb for skirts is 3" behind the back bar tip and 1-1/2" in front of the front bar tip. NOW be aware. some cutting trees due to longer seats will have longer bars. You may need to shorten that up. I have made some with 1-1/2" off the back, and had to just almost overlap my rear jockeys flush with the skirt backs. Some I have doen with the mother hubbard rear housing sttiched down to the skirt too. Also you need to allow some relief in the back of the skirts along the spine, especially with long skirts. Either build that into your cutting pattern so you get some rise, or don't lace the skirts together past the bar tips. If you have the jockeys to the edge and down tight, that can bind too.

As far as rigging, it needs to not interfere with forward stirrup swing. Some cutting trainers will like to get their feet up into the flats and spur one around when schooling. Horse are also trained when"my feet go forward, you better be hunting the ground and getting back". Some are rigged with skirt riggings, others use a dropped dee pattern with relief for stirrup swing. Not many cutters seem to like a flate plate, thinking is it interferes with close contact. Most of the cuttng saddles seem to be rigged full double or 7/8 at furthest back. Because of the leverage factor of 200# people pushing on a 4" horn sitting on a tall fork and sliding forward, I think there is some leverage action similar to a calf roping saddle. Back cinches need to be pulled snug. On a normal saddle I usually position the front edge of my back dee at the point of the cantle or a smidgen back. On a cutter or calf roping saddle, I move them back a little further, maybe 1-1/4 to 1-1/2" from the point. It helps to anchor things down. Most calf ropers use a wider back cinch (up to 8" center) and this allows some room for that. Cutters like a little extra room to spur the horse and not the back cinch finishing up a sweep or jumping out across the pen. My experience anyway.

[jwwright]

As a long time trainer of cutting and reined cowhorses, I agree with the advice that Bruce gave. 7/8 rig position is as far back as you would want to go, either D ring or inskirt.........probably closer to the full position. I would also suggest that you use a rigging D hobble strap with a "thmb" upsweep on the front D to make sure that stirrup leathers can slide over the D. 2 1/2" stirrups leathers, half leather fashion are the normal for all performance saddles as well.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

A question and a comment:

We are not cutters, so are curious enough to ask why are they full to 7/8th? Is it from the (mistaken) idea that the rigging will affects the position of the saddle and will somehow hold it back on the horse, or something else?

Interesting what you are saying, Bruce, about positioning the back rigging by using the front points of the cantle as a reference point. I know that if we wanted to, we could change where those front points end up by and inch or more without changing anything else in the whole tree (except the measured thigh length). The bars and how they fit on the horse would be the same. Denise asking the question here, but is this a common way to set back riggings? Because depending on your tree maker and how they do things, it would cause a lot of variation in where you position your rigging based on a very movable point. (Maybe this should be another topic?)

[jwwright]

Hi Rod and Denise................no, I and most all trainers who have trained cutters / cowhorses (any performance horse actually) at a high level understand that a proper fitting tree will set on a horses back properly, and rigging position shouldn't change that, unless the tree doesn't fit. D riggings and sometimes a skirt rig, along with 1/2 stirrup leathers, are the choice for performance saddles because of less leather under your leg. It is difficult to have a traditional D rig any further back than 7/8 without restricting forward leg swing. Also, generally speaking the type of quarter horse that we ride generally get along best with the 7/8 to full position. Of the 100 or so horses I worked with this past year alone, there were a few maybe that a 3/4 or 5/8 position would work well on. Again, speaking in generality, the horses we raise and ride are much more Texas steeldust true Quarter type, rather than the horses of the northern and western variety showing more TB influence. I have no intention of creating controversy, but the reason that the 7/8 to full position rigs are by far the most widely used and popular in the southern plains is because that is what works for the horse type and work done. Best Regards.

[bruce johnson]

Denise,

To weigh in here. Dee ring riggings are pretty difficult (but can be done) to provide much forward swing further back than 7/8. Also as was seen on the pics of the cutting trees you have seen, there is not much width or wood in those front pads. That is a construction factor. Obviously with the skirt rigging, position is a lesser factor. The bar pads not being as wide, a little flare, and there is less shoulder interference that might occur with a wider pad and more to the front. Of course the smaller pad and other factors (less wood on the horse) play into this to not necessarily make these bars the choice for some other applications. So the traditional way has been to make the cutters full or 7/8. I think I brought this up, but many unkowning horse owners (who are good in their respectuive field) have been able to set the saddle by placing the latigo and cinch behind the elbow. It's the only postion they have seen in the last 25 years. Now with Ray and the others on the road, the interest in the Wades and flat plates has picked up. They get a 5/8 or 3/4 rigged Wade, and set it so the latigo is behind the elbow. They cinch it there with the breast collar and have problems. It kind of goes back to my previous thread about making saddles for arena horses vs. all day sloggers.

Regarding setting the back riggings. Sitting here looking at other works, the point of the cantle or just a bit back looks to be pretty common. I use this in regards to 3" dees, my standard for most rear dee riggings. Even if I use 2-1/2" dees, that just moves me 1/4". Probably not a huge factor in back riggings for saddles that aren't going to take a jerk. If I am doing slots or plates in a flat plate, I move them back a little off that. It was the reference I was taught. Not sure now how universal that is. Ok, Great! You just caused me to question something else I THOUGHT was law and blindly accepted. Sooo, how about it folks, what does everyone else use now?? Looking at my trees here, that puts the center of the pull on the back billets right at the wider part of the rear bar pad, so I guess I am just using the cantle point to get me to that point of the rear pad. I can see where a Taylor cantle vs. oval might change that reference. Interesting.

[Rod and Denise Nikkel]

JW and Bruce,

Thanks for the information on cutting trees. Always good to hear the why of things. And help others think about the why of things too...

[Shelly]

My personal choice in riggings is the inskirt - as for a slot or rear dee, doesn't matter to me very much - majority of the cutters I build for want a 7/8 drop rigging, sometimes a call for a full double, and the ones that want the inskirt will be adamant about it. The inskirt is the best way to have the least amount of leather between you and the horse, as well as having the least obstruction to forward swing. I always install rigging connectors to help the stirrup leathers to ride up and over the rigging - it's still not the best...IMO...

As for the rear dee/slot placement - I've done enough of these to know that I'm really aiming for the lowest part of the rear bar pad - regardless of the seat length, as placing the dee behind a struck line from the cantle point is not always going to get you to that - my husband's saddles are a prime example - he will ride a 14.5 to 15 seat in his saddles, and if I place the rear dee just behind the point of the cantle, the flank would ride forward too close to the front cinch, be in his way, and in general, not look right (balanced) - as well as not being properly positioned for best security. (One thing I also notice - when I go to the major cuttings - most flank cinches are not being cinched snug enough to make any real difference when the horse is being worked and shown - almost all will have daylight and even when a horse gets in the ground and comes back thru itself on the turns, very few are actually being 'engaged') As for reining horses - most will remove the flank and billets completely, and never use them. In the cowhorse circles, I see more that actually snug the flank up to where it does touch, but not tight - this is my preference when I ride - have always had it drilled into me that any more than that, it's of no use, and you are asking for a wreck, in that the horse may get a hind foot hung in it, (seen it) ...

Now my opinion about skirt patterns, etc - I have made many of them, and I completely agree with Steve Mason - you do need to be able to make your own patterns - I have rough blocked a skirt on a tree and then made a run for the barn - needing a 'victim'! Will take at least three different aged horses, put a pad on them, then the tree with the blocked on leather - will then take a 36" ruler, and check myself for 'square to the world' as it relates to what it looks like on the horse - that line you struck in the shop won't always look right on the horse - also, even tho the front edge of my skirts will be approx. 1 1/2" off the front edge of the bar, I still need to make sure the line coming down from that mark doesn't look like it's going backward on the horse - needs to be straight down at the worst, and for best look, I think slightly ahead - have the same issues about the rear of the skirts - I usually go no more than 3" off the back of the bar - but, I never want the total overall skirt to measure more than 28 1/2" to 29" overall, so, if I must adjust for a much longer bar, such as used for a 17 1/2" seat, (do have an order now and then) - I need to be sure it won't interfere with the horse, so I will shorten if needed, at the rear. I personally like the looks of my backhousings to show at least an inch of the bottom skirt, usually 1 1/4" is what my dividers are set to when I make my lines when fitting the backhousings - I also like to show at least the stitching on the edge of the front skirts when fitting my seats...in the end, I'm trying to keep form to function for the horse and rider, and then trying to find lines and balance to please me -

I will also do this process again when I have my skirts trimmed out as I want them, and blocked on to dry - will usually want to do a check of rigging placement on a live animal, so will place full doubles or dropped riggings after the skirts are blocked on, and hold them in place with my smallest spikes (two to three) - I will measure off the bottom of the bar to the fold around the dee, placing the ruler under the dee, on top of the skirt, and butting up aganst the bar pad - I can also measure from the front edge of the dee to the front edge of the skirt - once the first one is in place and 'square to the world', I use the measurements to place rig #2 - then I double check all by running a string from the center of the cantle nail to the dees, in two spots, usually the back inside corner and the front inside corners, on both sides. If I have gone thru the process above, and made sure the skirts are visually level on the horse, then, when I come to the point of placing rigs, I will want the dees to be level with the skirts bottom edge...I will be able to double check this and how it sits on the horse when I go back out there for a visual check once I've placed the rigs...if I've done it right, both sides will look level and in balance with the horse, and my rigs won't interfere with the horse...and lastly, I always want to block the skirts deep enough that I won't have interference behind, when the skirts are laced together - always use a scrap of leather strip across the top of the bars, finding center, to use as a guide line when making a new pattern or checking an old pattern for a different bar, etc. I will block deep enough that the leather is level with the top of the bars - then, give it a visual from a side angle, to be sure the rear of the skirts are following the same angle as the bars, not winging upward, and not downward - straight. This way, the rear edge of the skirt doesn't bother the horse when standing at rest, or when working. I've worked in shops that used a pattern to cut skirts on - and they did not lace the skirts together because they felt lacing them interfered with the action of the horse - it will if you are using different bars/treemakers - and not making adjustments accordingly. Also note that different bars/front heights/widths will make it necessary to adjust or fit skirts, rather than 'cut on the line'. I will always fit my skirt patterns full around the top edges when I change things on a tree, even if it's the same treemaker, and I'm using the same front/cantle combination - if I've asked for a taller gullet height, wider, narrower, or a bar modification, it will all require rechecking or refitting - after I do this and have the skirts where I want them, have off the tree for stamping or tooling, I will use a slicker to smooth the blocked areas, and make a new pattern for myself, if I plan to build again on that configuration of tree. Seat length will affect bar lengths, and I've sometimes had different bar lengths in the same seat lengths in two different trees - in essence, when I place my skirt pattern up under the trees to check to see if they will be acceptable for that individual tree/saddle, I always check, regardless if that is the same maker, configuration, etc - might need to lengthen/shorten my pattern slightly to keep me at my chosen 3" at the rear, and so on...

I do like to make patterns for lots of my repair work - will have different makers saddles in for new rigs, etc, and will make patterns as necessary for replacement riggings, etc - each shop seems to have a little different design, but it helps to be able to reinstall the new rigs to cause the least amount of change on the saddle. I've found that even replacing horn covers has brought about complaints that they aren't the same size cap as the old one - we now will attach the old cap we've cut off, to the saddle when it goes home, so the owner is able to see that we have recovered using the same measurements for the stitching and then the finished cap width...we are also careful to be sure the cap, filler, and apron are the same thicknesses as what comes off - this is easy enough for me, with a band knife in the shop! By doing it this way, I have not had a single complaint since...just my 'dollars worth'!