Cowboy sewing machines

[jimsaddler]

Hello Bill,

Your Sailmaster SM 366-76-12HA is apparently built by a company in the city of Wujiang in Jiangsu province called:

Suzhou Wanping Sewing Equipment Co., Ltd.

Their brand name is BAOJIA and I have seen and worked on one of their machines at a major sailmaker here in Annapolis.

The machine Ryan is sitting at on your website is a GA2688-1 which is made in the Shanghai Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Factory (I have two of these, they are a great machine). That company's brand name is Highlead, and they also rebrand for others including Cowboy and Artisan.

The Cowboy CB 0318 is indeed a Huigong No.3 machine also, the GC0318.

I guess I just need some clarification on "Now we build leather sewing machines by ourselves, sail making machines as well!".

None of this is much of a problem IF the machine is good, AND IF two and two add up to four. If both parts aren't present, then confidence will not be high.

Art

Dear Art

quick answer.

Ryan is not using a Highlead, it's a 441, which is a bit different to the Highlead. Besides its an old photo.

Bill is right they do have the capacity to do Machines. That aside there have been many changes made since I came on board as I have the practical experience of a great many years in the Trade using Machines and Teaching Employees to use them. So I say this "Cowboy has listened, converted the sujestions into reality and delivered". Plus the price of the changes has not affected the price. So Who's the winner? The Customer! I don't care if they are made in Timbuktoo. I do care that someone has started to listen to the Trade and taken notice. In more than 40 years I was always told "thats the way they are, take it or leave it. I've finnaly got Machines that do what I want them to do. Singer, Adler, Seiko and many others never listened as we Saddlers were not important enough.

Art I really appreciate your posts. Please look outside the Square.

Kindest Regards.

Jim Beaton Master Saddler & Harness Maker. (45 years at the Bench)

Now Kat, back to the core of the post

"Does anyone know anything about the Cowboy sewing machines?

I need a light-medium weight leather sewing machine that will handle 3 to 4 layers of 2.5 to 3.0 wt garment leather and possibly Latigo. I make purses and cases as well as vests, not saddles or belts.

Thanks for any help

Kat Frye"

Hey Kat sorry for getting off the subject. Talk to Ryan Neel and tell him Jim said to give the right advice as to Choosing a sewing Machine to sew your Handbags properly. You will find that Cowboy are damm good Machines.

Please have a very Happy day.

Kindest Regards.

Jim.

[Art]

Hi Jim,

I really don't care where they are made either, although with sub-Saharan Africa, I would suspect quality control. I expect ISO-9002 as the least level of commitment to quality.

It does concern me when you say you are making something and I can clearly see that someone else made it. This leads me to think, what else is he saying that maybe I should question? Cultures are different, and the Chinese really are a case for the trust but verify doctrine. Hence the wish for ISO-9002, at least it is a start.

So I guess I am really saying, YES, I do care where the machines are made, as that is a primary indicator of their quality. I am a lot like Paul Harvey, I want the full story, or at least the rest of the story, and most importantly the STRAIGHT story.

With Artisan and Ferdco, and others too, it has never been "this is it take it or leave it". First Ferdco, then Artisan built their business' on listening to and serving customers; they still do. Pfaff and Adler will make you whatever you want to do whatever you want, but it will not be cheap....inexpensive either. To imply that Cowboy is a company that will FINALLY listen to leatherworkers is well, basically not true. You can get feet and plates from Ferdco for things most of us don't care or even know about and they seem to fit anything remotely resembling a 441. If you have an application that is truly out in left field, they'll have to make it for you and again it won't be inexpensive. Campbell-Bosworth will make parts for my Campbell for any application I need. These folks are out here serving us now and it is not like there has been some gaping hole in the sewing machine industry that Cowboy is just now filling.

However, bringing new blood into this market segment is most always a good thing and none of us think it is bad to have another good machine to look at when making a purchase.

Art

I don't care if they are made in Timbuktoo.

[Leather stitcher]

Hello Bill,

Your Sailmaster SM 366-76-12HA is apparently built by a company in the city of Wujiang in Jiangsu province called:

Suzhou Wanping Sewing Equipment Co., Ltd.

Their brand name is BAOJIA and I have seen and worked on one of their machines at a major sailmaker here in Annapolis.

The machine Ryan is sitting at on your website is a GA2688-1 which is made in the Shanghai Huigong No.3 Sewing Machine Factory (I have two of these, they are a great machine). That company's brand name is Highlead, and they also rebrand for others including Cowboy and Artisan.

The Cowboy CB 0318 is indeed a Huigong No.3 machine also, the GC0318.

I guess I just need some clarification on "Now we build leather sewing machines by ourselves, sail making machines as well!".

None of this is much of a problem IF the machine is good, AND IF two and two add up to four. If both parts aren't present, then confidence will not be high.

Art

Dear Art,

You know much about Chinese sewing machine industry.

GA2688-1 is similar to our CB 441. However if you check www.cowboysew.com carefully, you will find out some differences, like casting frame, flywheel, higher foot lift etc. We might be able to change the flywheel and some other parts, but we cannot change the casting frame of machine, if we get it from Highlead.

For Baojia machine and SM 366-76-12-HA, you can find the difference in casting frame and shape of machine, too.

Apparently we cannot buy machines from other manufacturers, and make the casting frame, machine's shape different. What do you think about it?

If you want to get more information about our production, please feel free to call Ryan or write to me at info@cowboysew.com, thank you!

Best wish,

Bill

Edited May 28, 2008 by Leather stitcher

[neelsaddlery]

Hello All:

I have been seeing a lot of talking about the Cowboy Brand Sewing Machines on the forum. This is good to see people talking about the products we sell. There also seems to be a lot of speculation as to the origin of the machines that we sell. I want to set the record straight so that there is no miscommunication with regard to this matter.

Cowboy machines are not manufactured in the Shanghai Huigong Number 3 sewing machine factory, nor are we connected with Highlead Brand sewing machines in any way. The Sailmaster 366 machines which we sell are also not manufactured by Baojia company. However, Baojia does manufacture their own version of the 366 machine, but ours is not from their factory.

If you look closely at the castings of both the 441 machine and 366 machines that we sell, you will see that they are in fact different from the machines offered by both Baojia and Highlead.

One thing to remember is that so many similar machines are made by so many different manufacturers in Asia that I even find myself getting confused from time to time on where certain machines are made!!!!!

Cowboy Sewing Machines is a joint venture enterprise between Neel's Saddlery and Harness (that's me) and New Century Holding Group in China (that is Mr. Bill Jiang). I do a lot of the engineering work and design improvements on the machines that we sell. I also find ways to reduce the costs of manufacture and still deliver a superior quality product. And, I also try to come up with some new ideas from time to time that other folks have not done in the past. These are few and far between -- but occassionally I do come up with some good ones!!!!!

We have appointed Bob Kovar (Toledo Sewing Machine) in Toledo, Ohio as the sole licensed user of the Cowboy brand name. He is the only one that sells the machines under the name of Cowboy. Many of you who have gone to the trade shows have seen me and Bob at the Cowboy booth selling Cowboy brand machines. (I am the big ugly bald guy, and everybody knows who Bob Kovar is!!!!)

I also sell the machines under my own brand name which is Neel's Saddlery -- many of you may have seen me selling machines on Ebay, as it is my primary venue for selling machines. Anything that comes from me is branded Neel's Saddlery. Anything that comes from Bob Kovar at Toledo Sewing Machines is branded Cowboy.

The partnership between myself and Mr. Bill Jiang has existed for a long time now. Bill has extensive experience in the sewing machine business in Asia and has worked for several big name manufacturers over there. I used to order machines from some of those manufacturers and that is how Bill and I got to know each other. Eventually we decided to strike out on our own, and that is Cowboy Sewing Machines got started.

The vast majority of the products we sell are made either specifically by us in our own manufacturing facility, or made to our specifications by certain strategic partners with which we cooperate.

The reason why we have our own manufacturing facilities in China is simple -- cost and quality. We can better control our quality and also have the advantage of cutting out a manufacturer's markup on certain machines.

Mr. Bill Jiang is correct in his assertion that we do manufacture the vast majority of our machines. We do not make all of them, but we do make an awful lot of them in our own facilites. If you look at some of the small differences in our machines versus other makers like Highlead and Baojia, you can see that the castings are in fact different.

In any event, I do hope this sheds some light on the questions about who we are and what we make. If anybody has any additional questions, please feel free to let me know. I do not visit this forum often, but please post any questions that you might have, and I will answer them ASAP.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

Cowboy Sewing Machine

[IHL]

Evening Folks

What everybody has forgot is Juki and Adler etc, have spent big $ in R&D developing their machines and that is built into the price. All the other yahoo's buy one of their machines and tell China to copy it and their price reflects it. You would not be paying what you are right now if they had to develope their own machines. Show me what they did differently, sure they painted it a different color.

Here is the kicker. China sends you the perfect backwards engineered sewing machine and then you order a 1000 of them only to find out that there are 990 bad on the water. All the customers have to deal with bad machines. It becomes a vicsious circle.

What is sad is, eventually the big companies close their doors as nobody is buying their machines. This has happened time and time again and then you really have to work with sh&t because those Chinese companys do not have a R&D dept, all they have ever done is copied other machines.

I own eighteen name brand machines and would not do it any other way.

[neelsaddlery]

525brwn:

Your comments on the China based sewing machine manufacturers are indeed correct. They do in fact copy already proven designs and offer them at much lower prices than the original machines. However, just like other major US sellers of sewing machines (Consew, Artisan, Tacony, Econosew, and many others) have found out, that is a wonderful thing. The prices that these copied machines can be sold for are much less than the original makers price, and the quality of the machines are to within 90-95 percent of the original.

Once the patent on the the original machine has expired, it becomes free game for the open market to copy and reproduce. This has already happened with the Juki 441 and the Adler 205. The patents have expired, and now it is free game for the open market.

However, this also forces the original makers of the machine to get innovative, and not just sit back on their laurels. It forces them to make new designs for even better and more trouble free sewing machines. It also forces them to cut costs and offer a superior quality product. Then China steps in again, and knocks off the original at a much cheaper price and comes very close with regard to quality. Then its back to the drawing board for the original maker. Indeed it is a viscious cycle. But, he net result for the end user is that they are getting a much better product, both from China and original manufacturer, than they did ten years ago.

That said, even the big name makers like Juki and Adler have been unable to avoide the greatly reduced costs of manufacture in China. To my knowledge, Juki has three assembly plants in China. Adler has been bought out by Chinese government owned sewing machine manufacturer named Shanggong Group. Seiko has many parts manufacturers in China. Pfaff also has resorted to building some of their sewing machines in China, first through a joint venture enterprise with China Zoje and now in their own China based factory. It is impossible to avoid the long arms of China even when you are buying that Adler, Pfaff, Juki, or Seiko machine.

China now dominates about 95 percent of world sewing machine production, if not more.

I would love to see sewing machine production come back to the USA, but it simply cannot happen. The costs to make the machines would be so great nobody could afford it.

In any event, this is just my 2 cents worth!!!!!

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[IHL]

Ryan

Thanks for your response.

You indeed have it very wrong about patents expiring allowing everyone to jump aboard. The Chinese were making those machines while the patents were still valid. The Chinese do not adhere to patents and are certainly not going to wait 17-21 years for them to expire.

The companies that hold the patents would pretty much have to file patent protection in every single country in the world to protect their patents. Cost prohibitive to do and enforce. A case in question, a USA company held numerous Patents on a certain application. A company from S.E.Asia made the same product and shipped it to the USA and started to sell it. The USA company took foreign company to court and won. Said product is still made by foreign Co and is still sold outside the USA as American Co only has patent rights in the USA.

Like i said, viscious cycle.

take care

[Leather stitcher]

Ryan

Thanks for your response.

You indeed have it very wrong about patents expiring allowing everyone to jump aboard. The Chinese were making those machines while the patents were still valid. The Chinese do not adhere to patents and are certainly not going to wait 17-21 years for them to expire.

The companies that hold the patents would pretty much have to file patent protection in every single country in the world to protect their patents. Cost prohibitive to do and enforce. A case in question, a USA company held numerous Patents on a certain application. A company from S.E.Asia made the same product and shipped it to the USA and started to sell it. The USA company took foreign company to court and won. Said product is still made by foreign Co and is still sold outside the USA as American Co only has patent rights in the USA.

Like i said, viscious cycle.

take care

525brwn:

It sounds that you dislike Chinese sewing machine. Everyone has the right to express his opinion. Hope my expression would not intensify such emotion of you!

If you track the history of sewing machine, even Durkopp Adler is not the first one, who built it. Like CB 441 model, the earliest machine should be Singer 45K, Adler 105/205 sourced from this design, but with many improvements. Juki TSC 441 followed with Adler 205 series, and then Chinese 441 machine. I firmly believe that in 10 years, the same story will happen in other countries, like India, Viet Nam or Africa. It’s just the trend of history, everybody could see that!

Today no American Company can produce sewing machine at acceptable price. On the other side, it’s impossible to manufacture Boeing 747 airplane in China. God bless everybody have job!

Anyhow, as a Chinese manufacturer, we just try to offer good machine and service, help customers to save their money. It's an honest work, I think!

Please keep an open-mind!

[neelsaddlery]

525brwn:

The major non-chinese sewing machine manufacturers such as Adler, Pfaff, Juki, and Seiko do indeed have patent protection in most industrialized nations of the world. Since China has joined the World Trade Organization, she has been forced to adhere more closely to the laws pertaining to intellectual property rights as well as international trade.

For leather stitchers such as the 441 and 205, the main market is in the United States. Juki and Adler both have intellectual property rights here as well as in many other countries. It is fair to assume that Juki and Adler would have exercised their intellectual property rights to stop the import of all the USA clone machines if they still held current patents.

There is a lot of counterfeit stuff made in China, and yes there are infractions pertaining to patents and intellectual property rights. However, not too many of these infractions pertain to sewing machines, and also infractions for all imported items are declining since China joined the WTO.

Thank you for your input.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[Jordan]

Ryan, I bought one of your Model 5 machines from another board member awhile back an I must say I am very pleased with it. Do you have a catalog of accessories for this machine? Still learning to use it and would like more info on attachments and such but am at a loss as to where to get stuff like a thinner foot or single sided, to get closer stitch lines on holsters etc. Thanks Jordan