Cowboy sewing machines

[neelsaddlery]

525brwn:

Your comments on the China based sewing machine manufacturers are indeed correct. They do in fact copy already proven designs and offer them at much lower prices than the original machines. However, just like other major US sellers of sewing machines (Consew, Artisan, Tacony, Econosew, and many others) have found out, that is a wonderful thing. The prices that these copied machines can be sold for are much less than the original makers price, and the quality of the machines are to within 90-95 percent of the original.

Once the patent on the the original machine has expired, it becomes free game for the open market to copy and reproduce. This has already happened with the Juki 441 and the Adler 205. The patents have expired, and now it is free game for the open market.

However, this also forces the original makers of the machine to get innovative, and not just sit back on their laurels. It forces them to make new designs for even better and more trouble free sewing machines. It also forces them to cut costs and offer a superior quality product. Then China steps in again, and knocks off the original at a much cheaper price and comes very close with regard to quality. Then its back to the drawing board for the original maker. Indeed it is a viscious cycle. But, he net result for the end user is that they are getting a much better product, both from China and original manufacturer, than they did ten years ago.

That said, even the big name makers like Juki and Adler have been unable to avoide the greatly reduced costs of manufacture in China. To my knowledge, Juki has three assembly plants in China. Adler has been bought out by Chinese government owned sewing machine manufacturer named Shanggong Group. Seiko has many parts manufacturers in China. Pfaff also has resorted to building some of their sewing machines in China, first through a joint venture enterprise with China Zoje and now in their own China based factory. It is impossible to avoid the long arms of China even when you are buying that Adler, Pfaff, Juki, or Seiko machine.

China now dominates about 95 percent of world sewing machine production, if not more.

I would love to see sewing machine production come back to the USA, but it simply cannot happen. The costs to make the machines would be so great nobody could afford it.

In any event, this is just my 2 cents worth!!!!!

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[IHL]

Ryan

Thanks for your response.

You indeed have it very wrong about patents expiring allowing everyone to jump aboard. The Chinese were making those machines while the patents were still valid. The Chinese do not adhere to patents and are certainly not going to wait 17-21 years for them to expire.

The companies that hold the patents would pretty much have to file patent protection in every single country in the world to protect their patents. Cost prohibitive to do and enforce. A case in question, a USA company held numerous Patents on a certain application. A company from S.E.Asia made the same product and shipped it to the USA and started to sell it. The USA company took foreign company to court and won. Said product is still made by foreign Co and is still sold outside the USA as American Co only has patent rights in the USA.

Like i said, viscious cycle.

take care

[Leather stitcher]

Ryan

Thanks for your response.

You indeed have it very wrong about patents expiring allowing everyone to jump aboard. The Chinese were making those machines while the patents were still valid. The Chinese do not adhere to patents and are certainly not going to wait 17-21 years for them to expire.

The companies that hold the patents would pretty much have to file patent protection in every single country in the world to protect their patents. Cost prohibitive to do and enforce. A case in question, a USA company held numerous Patents on a certain application. A company from S.E.Asia made the same product and shipped it to the USA and started to sell it. The USA company took foreign company to court and won. Said product is still made by foreign Co and is still sold outside the USA as American Co only has patent rights in the USA.

Like i said, viscious cycle.

take care

525brwn:

It sounds that you dislike Chinese sewing machine. Everyone has the right to express his opinion. Hope my expression would not intensify such emotion of you!

If you track the history of sewing machine, even Durkopp Adler is not the first one, who built it. Like CB 441 model, the earliest machine should be Singer 45K, Adler 105/205 sourced from this design, but with many improvements. Juki TSC 441 followed with Adler 205 series, and then Chinese 441 machine. I firmly believe that in 10 years, the same story will happen in other countries, like India, Viet Nam or Africa. It’s just the trend of history, everybody could see that!

Today no American Company can produce sewing machine at acceptable price. On the other side, it’s impossible to manufacture Boeing 747 airplane in China. God bless everybody have job!

Anyhow, as a Chinese manufacturer, we just try to offer good machine and service, help customers to save their money. It's an honest work, I think!

Please keep an open-mind!

[neelsaddlery]

525brwn:

The major non-chinese sewing machine manufacturers such as Adler, Pfaff, Juki, and Seiko do indeed have patent protection in most industrialized nations of the world. Since China has joined the World Trade Organization, she has been forced to adhere more closely to the laws pertaining to intellectual property rights as well as international trade.

For leather stitchers such as the 441 and 205, the main market is in the United States. Juki and Adler both have intellectual property rights here as well as in many other countries. It is fair to assume that Juki and Adler would have exercised their intellectual property rights to stop the import of all the USA clone machines if they still held current patents.

There is a lot of counterfeit stuff made in China, and yes there are infractions pertaining to patents and intellectual property rights. However, not too many of these infractions pertain to sewing machines, and also infractions for all imported items are declining since China joined the WTO.

Thank you for your input.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[Jordan]

Ryan, I bought one of your Model 5 machines from another board member awhile back an I must say I am very pleased with it. Do you have a catalog of accessories for this machine? Still learning to use it and would like more info on attachments and such but am at a loss as to where to get stuff like a thinner foot or single sided, to get closer stitch lines on holsters etc. Thanks Jordan

[esantoro]

Ryan, I bought one of your Model 5 machines from another board member awhile back an I must say I am very pleased with it. Do you have a catalog of accessories for this machine? Still learning to use it and would like more info on attachments and such but am at a loss as to where to get stuff like a thinner foot or single sided, to get closer stitch lines on holsters etc. Thanks Jordan

You might want to try the roller foot. I think John has one and should know better than I do.

Ed

[Art]

Hello Ryan,

Your SM 366-76-12HA machine that you market under the Sailmaster name is the same machine that Baojia markets as the BJ 366-76-12HA. It looks identical. If yours is significantly different, why use their numbers? Ditto the CB0318, a spitting image of a Highlead. I am going to have to take you at your word that your machines are different. Does Cowboy have an ISO-9002 certification?

I know China is the penultimate world of knockoffs, even amongst themselves, however this is not a bad thing (by their standards of business), but it is looked on skeptically here. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as long as the quality remains high and there are no patent problems. This is why I specify ISO-9002 manufacturers, it just shows the company is committed to the quality principal.

In the last 15 years Chinese (mainland) castings have gone from remarkably so-so to actually very acceptable, right up there with Taiwan, paint has improved also. Give me an American casting any day, German and Italian next, but China is not only improving, they have arrived and produce an acceptable product. The parts inside sewing machines, especially low run number industrial ones, can and do come from every and any corner of the world. This is another reason to copy existing designs, there are just more high quality parts available. While we are discussing how things have changed, we should discuss motors. I have a couple of Chinese (mainland) motors from around 15 years ago. These things were truly a study in ancient motor design, I'm sure Tesla had something to do with them, they had mechanical phase changers (to lead the phase in the starting process) and other old stuff that a modern engineering grad wouldn't have a clue to what was going on (thank God I'm old), but they did work. The new stuff is very modern and in my use pretty reliable, like most electrical equipment, if you have a problem it will happen early and it is usually a complete failure.

What does all this mean? From a manufacturing standpoint, China has arrived, actually they have been here for about 10 or so years. I'm sure you can find Chinese crap out there, but generally these companies don't survive. In prior times, you bought Chinese gear to fill a slot on a line with the knowledge it would likely need replacing in a year or two, maybe less. This is an acceptable strategy for some startups. Now you can buy Chinese machines that can be expected to last for a decade or two or three. So I don't buy it that Chinese machines are junk anymore, but I definitely want to know who made them. I have a Highlead (or 3) that I have tortured making specialized blankets and pads, sewing nasty fabric like Nomex, Kevlar, carbon fiber, asbestos, and turnout cloth. I have been all over the Highlead machines looking for wear and have not found it, if it would have occurred, that application would have done it. I have also worked with the Baojia machines in a sailmaking setting, these machines are used heavily and in the zigzag mode a lot and here again, not much in the wear category. All the big machines, Highlead and Baojia were direct drive (no speed reducers) with 3/4 and 1hp clutch motors, so these machines were not treated daintily. So I know Highlead/Artisan and Baojia make decent machines. I purchased a Juki based Ferdco and a Taiwan based Ferdco 2000 from a manufacturer. These machines were about 10-15 years old when I bought them and had been in daily production for years (webbing and leather). These machines were in very good shape mechanically, the Taiwan model needed paint, and the Juki was very dirty, but these machines cleaned-up well and didn't need anything except new motors (they were 3 phase). So we can also add Juki and whoever in Taiwan made the other one, but ultimately Ferdco to the list.

I have no affiliation with Singer, Pfaff, Adler, Artisan, Ferdco, Baojia, or any other equipment maker, and opinions are based on using and abusing, maintaining and repairing these machines, and yes, I do buy oil by the 5 gallon pail.

If anyone else is unaffiliated and in a production setting, has bought a machine out of a production environment, or has any way to observe machines that are heavily used, your experiences would be a helpful addition to our knowledge here.

Art

525brwn:

The major non-chinese sewing machine manufacturers such as Adler, Pfaff, Juki, and Seiko do indeed have patent protection in most industrialized nations of the world. Since China has joined the World Trade Organization, she has been forced to adhere more closely to the laws pertaining to intellectual property rights as well as international trade.

For leather stitchers such as the 441 and 205, the main market is in the United States. Juki and Adler both have intellectual property rights here as well as in many other countries. It is fair to assume that Juki and Adler would have exercised their intellectual property rights to stop the import of all the USA clone machines if they still held current patents.

There is a lot of counterfeit stuff made in China, and yes there are infractions pertaining to patents and intellectual property rights. However, not too many of these infractions pertain to sewing machines, and also infractions for all imported items are declining since China joined the WTO.

Thank you for your input.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[neelsaddlery]

Hello Ryan,Your SM 366-76-12HA machine that you market under the Sailmaster name is the same machine that Baojia markets as the BJ 366-76-12HA. It looks identical. If yours is significantly different, why use their numbers? Ditto the CB0318, a spitting image of a Highlead. I am going to have to take you at your word that your machines are different. Does Cowboy have an ISO-9002 certification?I know China is the penultimate world of knockoffs, even amongst themselves, however this is not a bad thing (by their standards of business), but it is looked on skeptically here. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as long as the quality remains high and there are no patent problems. This is why I specify ISO-9002 manufacturers, it just shows the company is committed to the quality principal.In the last 15 years Chinese (mainland) castings have gone from remarkably so-so to actually very acceptable, right up there with Taiwan, paint has improved also. Give me an American casting any day, German and Italian next, but China is not only improving, they have arrived and produce an acceptable product. The parts inside sewing machines, especially low run number industrial ones, can and do come from every and any corner of the world. This is another reason to copy existing designs, there are just more high quality parts available. While we are discussing how things have changed, we should discuss motors. I have a couple of Chinese (mainland) motors from around 15 years ago. These things were truly a study in ancient motor design, I'm sure Tesla had something to do with them, they had mechanical phase changers (to lead the phase in the starting process) and other old stuff that a modern engineering grad wouldn't have a clue to what was going on (thank God I'm old), but they did work. The new stuff is very modern and in my use pretty reliable, like most electrical equipment, if you have a problem it will happen early and it is usually a complete failure.What does all this mean? From a manufacturing standpoint, China has arrived, actually they have been here for about 10 or so years. I'm sure you can find Chinese crap out there, but generally these companies don't survive. In prior times, you bought Chinese gear to fill a slot on a line with the knowledge it would likely need replacing in a year or two, maybe less. This is an acceptable strategy for some startups. Now you can buy Chinese machines that can be expected to last for a decade or two or three. So I don't buy it that Chinese machines are junk anymore, but I definitely want to know who made them. I have a Highlead (or 3) that I have tortured making specialized blankets and pads, sewing nasty fabric like Nomex, Kevlar, carbon fiber, asbestos, and turnout cloth. I have been all over the Highlead machines looking for wear and have not found it, if it would have occurred, that application would have done it. I have also worked with the Baojia machines in a sailmaking setting, these machines are used heavily and in the zigzag mode a lot and here again, not much in the wear category. All the big machines, Highlead and Baojia were direct drive (no speed reducers) with 3/4 and 1hp clutch motors, so these machines were not treated daintily. So I know Highlead/Artisan and Baojia make decent machines. I purchased a Juki based Ferdco and a Taiwan based Ferdco 2000 from a manufacturer. These machines were about 10-15 years old when I bought them and had been in daily production for years (webbing and leather). These machines were in very good shape mechanically, the Taiwan model needed paint, and the Juki was very dirty, but these machines cleaned-up well and didn't need anything except new motors (they were 3 phase). So we can also add Juki and whoever in Taiwan made the other one, but ultimately Ferdco to the list.I have no affiliation with Singer, Pfaff, Adler, Artisan, Ferdco, Baojia, or any other equipment maker, and opinions are based on using and abusing, maintaining and repairing these machines, and yes, I do buy oil by the 5 gallon pail.If anyone else is unaffiliated and in a production setting, has bought a machine out of a production environment, or has any way to observe machines that are heavily used, your experiences would be a helpful addition to our knowledge here.Art

Art:You are correct that our machines are very similar to the Baojia model as well as the Highlead Model. They do look very similar. However, Our 366 model casting is 1 inch longer than the Baojia model 366, and there are also some additional holes in our casting which were placed there in order to aid in the assembly process.Baojia actually holds a Chinese patent on the 366 machine, so in order to get around it, we had to change the machine so that it did not have the original design of the Baojia model. I am not an authority on Chinese patent law, but Bill Jiang assures me that by making some changes in the dimension of the casting, there has been a loophole created.The Model 0318 machine that we offer does look identical to the model offered by Highlead as well. However, there are many manufacturers of this machine in China at present. Highlead is one of the more visible makers of the machine, but I can count at least half a dozen other makers of the machine off the top of my head. Some of the makers that come to mind are China Gemsy, China Louke, Tenjoy brands, China Zoje, Baoma, and a few others. We are just another maker of the machine on top of a list of many. However, Highlead does a lot of advertsing in the USA and has a more visible website than the other smaller makers.We don't make all of our machines in our factory, but we do make a good bit of them. Our big sellers are the 441 clone machines, which we do produce. We do make the 366 model in our factory as well, but truthfully the market for them in USA is quite limited. My partner (Bill Jiang) does sell a lot of these machines in the international market. We also make the 0318 machines, as well as the Model 243 machines. There are also others which we do produce.Our factory does carry ISO 9002 certification, but I tend not to judge so much about how good a factory is solely on whether or not they have the ISO 9002 certification or not. As you may know, China has its own administrative branch of the ISO rules and regulations, and I sometimes find that they can be more lax in their interpretation of these regulations when compared to other countries. The ISO 9002 and previous ISO 9001 certifications are relatively easy for any manufacturer to get in China, provided they pay the registration fees and demonstrate a minimum set of quality control standards. I tend to look more towards overal fit and finish of the completed product, and how well it stands up to abuse of everyday sewing.If you look at our website photo of the 366 machine, I do believe that this machine is actually a photo of the Baojia Model 366 machine. However, as Bill Jiang explained in a previous post, prior to 3 years ago we were buying these machines from other factories.I will ask Bill to update the website with the photo of the new 366 machine that we offer, and see if he can send me some photos of it and I will post some here for others to view.Hope this clears it up some.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and Harness

Ryan, I bought one of your Model 5 machines from another board member awhile back an I must say I am very pleased with it. Do you have a catalog of accessories for this machine? Still learning to use it and would like more info on attachments and such but am at a loss as to where to get stuff like a thinner foot or single sided, to get closer stitch lines on holsters etc. Thanks Jordan

Jordan:Yes, we do have some attachments and so forth available for the Model 5 machine, such as slide plate and a material guide, as well as a roller foot, and also a narrow leather presser foot and a left toe foot. You can visit our website to get my information, and give me a call if you like. I am not sure I can post my phone number here, and I don't want to make a commercial enterprise out of this good website.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and Harness

[jimsaddler]

Art:You are correct that our machines are very similar to the Baojia model as well as the Highlead Model. They do look very similar. However, Our 366 model casting is 1 inch longer than the Baojia model 366, and there are also some additional holes in our casting which were placed there in order to aid in the assembly process.Baojia actually holds a Chinese patent on the 366 machine, so in order to get around it, we had to change the machine so that it did not have the original design of the Baojia model. I am not an authority on Chinese patent law, but Bill Jiang assures me that by making some changes in the dimension of the casting, there has been a loophole created.The Model 0318 machine that we offer does look identical to the model offered by Highlead as well. However, there are many manufacturers of this machine in China at present. Highlead is one of the more visible makers of the machine, but I can count at least half a dozen other makers of the machine off the top of my head. Some of the makers that come to mind are China Gemsy, China Louke, Tenjoy brands, China Zoje, Baoma, and a few others. We are just another maker of the machine on top of a list of many. However, Highlead does a lot of advertsing in the USA and has a more visible website than the other smaller makers.We don't make all of our machines in our factory, but we do make a good bit of them. Our big sellers are the 441 clone machines, which we do produce. We do make the 366 model in our factory as well, but truthfully the market for them in USA is quite limited. My partner (Bill Jiang) does sell a lot of these machines in the international market. We also make the 0318 machines, as well as the Model 243 machines. There are also others which we do produce.Our factory does carry ISO 9002 certification, but I tend not to judge so much about how good a factory is solely on whether or not they have the ISO 9002 certification or not. As you may know, China has its own administrative branch of the ISO rules and regulations, and I sometimes find that they can be more lax in their interpretation of these regulations when compared to other countries. The ISO 9002 and previous ISO 9001 certifications are relatively easy for any manufacturer to get in China, provided they pay the registration fees and demonstrate a minimum set of quality control standards. I tend to look more towards overal fit and finish of the completed product, and how well it stands up to abuse of everyday sewing.If you look at our website photo of the 366 machine, I do believe that this machine is actually a photo of the Baojia Model 366 machine. However, as Bill Jiang explained in a previous post, prior to 3 years ago we were buying these machines from other factories.I will ask Bill to update the website with the photo of the new 366 machine that we offer, and see if he can send me some photos of it and I will post some here for others to view.Hope this clears it up some.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and HarnessJordan:Yes, we do have some attachments and so forth available for the Model 5 machine, such as slide plate and a material guide, as well as a roller foot, and also a narrow leather presser foot and a left toe foot. You can visit our website to get my information, and give me a call if you like. I am not sure I can post my phone number here, and I don't want to make a commercial enterprise out of this good website.Kindest Regards,Ryan O. NeelNeel's Saddlery and Harness

Whew!!

I didn't realise what I'd started.

All that I can add is.. I have found the Cowboy 441 and its stable mates to handle All I can ask of it.

It's the one Machine a Saddler or Harness Maker needs in his Shop. Because Bill listens to his advisers and keeps improvements.

Please have a Happy Week or two.

Kindest Regards. Jim.

[Art]

Hi Ryan,

I don't quite understand how Baojia has a patent on the 366, they copied it from Adler. Nevertheless, will the Adler parts fit in your castings? This would be a good thing as it is pretty easy to get Adler parts (other than the bank loan for purchase). The Adler 366s are pretty much a mainstay in the sail industry and are getting killed by the Euro vs. Dollar thing, although Global is doing well with their cam driven models. A good, less expensive alternative might have some traction in that market. The short arm version of the Global (ZZ-568) does well also and you have a model SM-568 that appears identical. This might be an opportunity for Cowboy as I have not seen any Sailmaster machines in the area. Then again, it is a pretty small market, but so is the leatherworking industry.

Art

Art:You are correct that our machines are very similar to the Baojia model as well as the Highlead Model. They do look very similar. However, Our 366 model casting is 1 inch longer than the Baojia model 366, and there are also some additional holes in our casting which were placed there in order to aid in the assembly process.Baojia actually holds a Chinese patent on the 366 machine, so in order to get around it, we had to change the machine so that it did not have the original design of the Baojia model. I am not an authority on Chinese patent law, but Bill Jiang assures me that by making some changes in the dimension of the casting, there has been a loophole created.

[neelsaddlery]

Hi Ryan,

I don't quite understand how Baojia has a patent on the 366, they copied it from Adler. Nevertheless, will the Adler parts fit in your castings? This would be a good thing as it is pretty easy to get Adler parts (other than the bank loan for purchase). The Adler 366s are pretty much a mainstay in the sail industry and are getting killed by the Euro vs. Dollar thing, although Global is doing well with their cam driven models. A good, less expensive alternative might have some traction in that market. The short arm version of the Global (ZZ-568) does well also and you have a model SM-568 that appears identical. This might be an opportunity for Cowboy as I have not seen any Sailmaster machines in the area. Then again, it is a pretty small market, but so is the leatherworking industry.

Art

Art:

Yes, I know that Baojia copied the machine from Adler. However, somehow Baojia was able to improve upon the design of the machine a bit and they were able to register for and get approved for a CHINESE patent on the machine. Note that the patent that they hold is in China, not in USA or Europe. At the CISMA show last year, Highlead debuted their version of the 366 machine, which was essentially an exact copy of the Baojia version of the machine. In the months that followed, Baojia sued Highlead in China because they held a Chinese patent on the machine. I am not sure of the outcome of the suit.

It makes little sense to me how Baojia was able to get a patent in China for the machine, since China is already a member of the WTO, and also since Adler is now owned by Shanggong, a Chinese company. However, apparently through some loophole they were able to get patent recognition through the Chinese government. Perhaps it is because the Adler patent on the machine was already expired at the time Adler was acquired by Shanggong, and consequently Adler did not register this patent with the Chinese government. Baojia simply made some changes to the design to make it a bit more unique, and then filed for Chinese patent protection.

That is why we had to change the casting of our machine a bit. We had to get around the existing patent that Baojia had on the machine in China. China patent law is very confusing to me, and seems to be nothing like the laws we have in USA regarding patents. In the USA there would be no way we could avoid a lawsuit just by changing a few features of a casting. USA patent law allows for a wide swing in design interpretation to determine if a patent has been infringed upon. The offending item does not need to look exactly like the original, just vauguely similar, and has to violate 1 or more of the claims made in the original patent. China patent law seems to be quite different.

Also, I have heard from several sources in China that Adler buys their 366 machine from an importer in Holland, who buys them from Baojia then modifies them a bit. Hence, the Adler version of the machine is basically a beefed up version of the Baojia machine. However, I do not know if this is accurate or not. I would estimate that Adler sells fewer than 10 of these 366 machines per year now.

Baojia sells about 200 sets of their 366 machine per year to the worldwide market. We sell much less, but are trying to grow the market a bit more by offering the machine for a lower price.

Most of our parts will interchange with the Adler version. However, a small percentage of parts will not. Mainly things like the main shafts, shuttle shafts, and feeder shafts below the machine and so forth, as our machine has 1 inch more of throat clearance than the original Adler or Baojia copy.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[Art]

Hi Ryan,

I think the Chinese way of doing business will pretty much confuse any Westerner. That is why it is important to have a knowledgeable and stable importer.

On a second item, do you know the make and model of this monster, it is 350mm high by 900mm throat, you can just about put a 366 head in the arch.

Thanks,

Art

Art:

Yes, I know that Baojia copied the machine from Adler. However, somehow Baojia was able to improve upon the design of the machine a bit and they were able to register for and get approved for a CHINESE patent on the machine. Note that the patent that they hold is in China, not in USA or Europe. At the CISMA show last year, Highlead debuted their version of the 366 machine, which was essentially an exact copy of the Baojia version of the machine. In the months that followed, Baojia sued Highlead in China because they held a Chinese patent on the machine. I am not sure of the outcome of the suit.

It makes little sense to me how Baojia was able to get a patent in China for the machine, since China is already a member of the WTO, and also since Adler is now owned by Shanggong, a Chinese company. However, apparently through some loophole they were able to get patent recognition through the Chinese government. Perhaps it is because the Adler patent on the machine was already expired at the time Adler was acquired by Shanggong, and consequently Adler did not register this patent with the Chinese government. Baojia simply made some changes to the design to make it a bit more unique, and then filed for Chinese patent protection.

That is why we had to change the casting of our machine a bit. We had to get around the existing patent that Baojia had on the machine in China. China patent law is very confusing to me, and seems to be nothing like the laws we have in USA regarding patents. In the USA there would be no way we could avoid a lawsuit just by changing a few features of a casting. USA patent law allows for a wide swing in design interpretation to determine if a patent has been infringed upon. The offending item does not need to look exactly like the original, just vauguely similar, and has to violate 1 or more of the claims made in the original patent. China patent law seems to be quite different.

Also, I have heard from several sources in China that Adler buys their 366 machine from an importer in Holland, who buys them from Baojia then modifies them a bit. Hence, the Adler version of the machine is basically a beefed up version of the Baojia machine. However, I do not know if this is accurate or not. I would estimate that Adler sells fewer than 10 of these 366 machines per year now.

Baojia sells about 200 sets of their 366 machine per year to the worldwide market. We sell much less, but are trying to grow the market a bit more by offering the machine for a lower price.

Most of our parts will interchange with the Adler version. However, a small percentage of parts will not. Mainly things like the main shafts, shuttle shafts, and feeder shafts below the machine and so forth, as our machine has 1 inch more of throat clearance than the original Adler or Baojia copy.

Kindest Regards,

Ryan O. Neel

Neel's Saddlery and Harness

[neelsaddlery]

Hi Ryan,

I think the Chinese way of doing business will pretty much confuse any Westerner. That is why it is important to have a knowledgeable and stable importer.

On a second item, do you know the make and model of this monster, it is 350mm high by 900mm throat, you can just about put a 366 head in the arch.

Thanks,

Art

Art:

WOW!!!!!! That is a monster. I wonder if Solent in UK does mods like this to machines? I am not aware of any machine like this in mass production. Think it could have been stretched and raised as part of a custom mod job?

Ryan

[Art]

Hi Ryan,

After a little research and a few phone calls, the machine is a ZZ, bottom feed with puller, here are some specs:

Thread capability: 92 - 207.

Sewing speed: 1000 SPM.*Subject to sewing conditions.

Needle type/size: 7X23 / 7X3 / 1000 class 140 - 250

High speed seaming, 12mm 3-step ZZ

Sewing capability: 25mm thickness IE Maxi corners

Bobbin size: diameter 35mm x 14mm

Foot-lift: 30mm

Puller-lift: 75mm

*Pneumatic foot pressure

*Reverse, manual reverse button

*Automatic foot and puller lift

*Puller-feed disable switch

*Needle cooling, the needle cooler is governed by the operator foot pedal

and only on when sewing is commenced

*EFKA DC1550/AB321 motor, needle positioning and variable speed control.

Puller feed.

Top and bottom driven. 70mm wide rollers,

Puller lift: 75 mm - Disable switch equipped.

The top roller feed rate is adjusted by a lever

For easy change with a range from minimum to maximum to suit all applications.

This is not for real leather machine users, just a item of interest for the machine nuts:

These things are manufactured by John Cordes in Australia for the Sail Industry.

I have a power point presentation that I can email if someone wants it (PM me with your email addy).

Art

Art:

WOW!!!!!! That is a monster. I wonder if Solent in UK does mods like this to machines? I am not aware of any machine like this in mass production. Think it could have been stretched and raised as part of a custom mod job?

Ryan

[Leather stitcher]

Hi Ryan,

I think the Chinese way of doing business will pretty much confuse any Westerner. That is why it is important to have a knowledgeable and stable importer.

On a second item, do you know the make and model of this monster, it is 350mm high by 900mm throat, you can just about put a 366 head in the arch.

Thanks,

Art

Art, I bet you will change minds, if you have experience with Ryan's machine and service! Bill

[Leather stitcher]

Show Respects to ed,

First of all, we do thanks for your supports!

I see your articles often, and learned that you are one of top expert in leather industry.

Inspirations always come from professional people. We have been working together with customer for many years, and keep improving machine’s quality, value, and service as well.

Today we are not layman to leather sewing machine and sail making machine. However any advice from customers will be greatly appreciated. If you have any suggestion about our machine or service, please kindly contact with Ryan, we will fully respect your opinion!

With kind regards,

Bill

I have the Neel's Model 6 (441 long arm). All is great. Ryan is great. I use a combination of Neel's plates and feet and Artisan's feet. Sometimes I do need to make height adjustments and rotation adjustments by messing with a few bolts. I have written about this in a post somewhere. By messing with these adjustments I have found a happy medium.

My thinking is that these adjustments will be factory set differently, depending on the distributor, but with a little understanding the proper adjustments can be made.

I'll be sure to post another question, because there are two bolts for whose purpose I'd like to know.

ed

[Rolf]

Cowboys do not have electrical power during their job :-) I would strongly suggest the Boss from Tippmann. All my letaher work is done with this great machine: www.western-saddlery.ch & www.western-wear.ch : The largest western store in Switzerland.

[chrisash]

One small point ISO 9002 does not mean a part that is made is of high quality, its a strange thing to understand but it just means the quality is standard throughout the part, If they make a low quality part say a tin bottle opener, then as long as all of them are made to the same quality then ISO 9001 is OK

You could make a better product and that would be no  acceptable to your present ISO 9002 qualification unless re qualified with the new part

So make every part to the same specification and your ok regardless if its crap or first class