S&w J-Frame - Pancake

[particle]

Hello all! This is my first attempt at a S&W J-Frame holster. I've made one California Slim Jim for a Ruger Single Six about a year ago, but otherwise - this is my first real attempt at a holster for a revolver holster. Anyway, I have a question and was hoping I could get some guidance... Please ignore the quality of the boning (or lack of) and the unfinished edges, etc. This was a mock-up more than anything to test the pattern and see how the tooling pattern came out (needs adjustments too). As it stands, this holster has excellent retention - it's not too tight, but won't fall out if I invert it and shake it.

The cylinder on my S&W 642 has fairly sharp edges. As such, I'm not sure if I should mold the top edge of the holster around the top edge of the cylinder, or if I should just leave it loose up top and focus the majority of retention inside the trigger guard. I slightly pressed it inward, and now the cylinder is scraping up the interior of the holster a little. I've seen a lot of holsters that are tightly formed on the top, so I know it's not out of the question - but perhaps those particular cylinders have relieved edges?

If it's tightly molded, do you then have to flare the top edge of the holster back out so the mouth of the holster doesn't snag on the forward edge of the cylinder?

If anyone has example photos of revolver holsters that don't have retention straps, I'd love to see them.

I was too lazy to get out the big camera, so these were just taken with my phone.

[dickf]

I made one quite some time ago as a prototype and I scalloped the cylinder area. Mine's an IWB, but I would use the same concept in knocking up a pancake if I were tasked with it today.

[Dwight]

FWIW, . . . I just use my thumb and ever so slightly "funnelize" the opening into the holster for the revolver.

It adds a ton of strength to the front of the holster, . . . and kind of guides the thing down into the hole.

I also don't mold the belt slots quite as much as you do. I let the wearer finish putting the "set" in the slots, . . . that way it has a tendency to mold more to him, and also help in the retention of the weapon also.

I'm curious as to the weight of the leather you are using there also, . . . I usually lighten up a bit on any front side decoration or reinforcement.

The sides look like they are a bit thick, . . . but it just may be the angle from which the picture was taken.

Holster looks good to me, . . . good work.

May God bless,

Dwight

[particle]

Thanks fellas for the input.

Dwight - The leather is Wicket & Craig 8-10oz. I was thinking about dropping down to 6-7oz on the reinforcement piece with my next attempt. Am I correct in saying you focus your retention in the trigger guard area? What weight are you using on similar lightweight revolvers?

[katsass]

Hello all! This is my first attempt at a S&W J-Frame holster. I've made one California Slim Jim for a Ruger Single Six about a year ago, but otherwise - this is my first real attempt at a holster for a revolver holster. Anyway, I have a question and was hoping I could get some guidance... Please ignore the quality of the boning (or lack of) and the unfinished edges, etc. This was a mock-up more than anything to test the pattern and see how the tooling pattern came out (needs adjustments too). As it stands, this holster has excellent retention - it's not too tight, but won't fall out if I invert it and shake it.

The cylinder on my S&W 642 has fairly sharp edges. As such, I'm not sure if I should mold the top edge of the holster around the top edge of the cylinder, or if I should just leave it loose up top and focus the majority of retention inside the trigger guard. I slightly pressed it inward, and now the cylinder is scraping up the interior of the holster a little. I've seen a lot of holsters that are tightly formed on the top, so I know it's not out of the question - but perhaps those particular cylinders have relieved edges?

If it's tightly molded, do you then have to flare the top edge of the holster back out so the mouth of the holster doesn't snag on the forward edge of the cylinder?

If anyone has example photos of revolver holsters that don't have retention straps, I'd love to see them.

I was too lazy to get out the big camera, so these were just taken with my phone.

Particle, here's my personal carry holster for my old J framed Smith, and one made for a customer for a Charter Arms Bulldog.....no safety straps. The Smith M-36 has a hammer shroud on the holster because I carry it concealed, the Bulldog holster is for open carry...no hammer shroud. Mike

Edited February 5, 2011 by katsass

[particle]

Katsass -thanks for the pics. Do you get plenty of retention just from the friction fit? Or did you do any boning on the back to lock the gun into the holster?

[marine mp]

Particle,

My preference for the j-frame (alloy or steel) pancake is 8-9 oz in back (or against your body) and 6-7 oz. on the outside. I also don't re-enforce the throat, minimum boning except in the trigger-guard area and a straight shot up from the cylinder. As per Dwight, I also "funnelize" the throat opening for the cylinder.I also, make the holster in less of a "body molded" shape as I want the operator to tighten the belt in such a way as it pulls the thinner weight leather in the front just a little tighter against the weapon for added retention. Hope this helps some anyways. You have created quite a beautiful piece and I always enjoy the pictures of them. I really don't know how to post pictures, but when I do, I'll have some to show. My belief (JMHO) is that a lot of concealed-carry holsters are made with leather that is a bit to heavy for the piece. Thie holster is a "pocket" that is carrying a piece that doesn't weight a whole lot and leather is quite strong. Again, just my opinion. Semper-fi Mike

PS. Question, not to steal this thread, PM if you wish. I realize you must sew as a last operation, so how do you keep it so clean? Thanks

Edited February 5, 2011 by marine mp

[katsass]

Katsass -thanks for the pics. Do you get plenty of retention just from the friction fit? Or did you do any boning on the back to lock the gun into the holster?

Particle, my holsters are made differently that most. I use two layers of leather bonded together, then stitched at all edges. Some think they are lined holsters, however, since I always use a minimum inner layer of 3/4 oz veg tanned instead of the more usual much thinner stuff, they really aren't truly 'lined'. Both of these holsters are made of 3/4 inside and 5/6 oz outer shell. My holsters are dried at around 130/140 degrees in the desert sun..........out here they dry very quickly. This produces a very firm and tight fitting holster (in my opinion much firmer than a single piece of leather of roughly equal weight) after hand molding only, as all of the rigidity is produced in the top (grain) layer of the leather. In my way, I have two grain layers which produce the better rigidity and firmness. Mike

[Lobo]

Paricle:

As usual, your work shows outstanding skill and artistry. In response to your questions, I would offer:

1. The cylinder bulge can be used to increase retention qualities, if you wish to do so. Forming the holster mouth around the rear of the cylinder will serve this function. This also makes re-holstering more difficult, and you will probably note accelerated wear in this area after a brief period of use. Flaring the holster mouth slightly will facilitate re-holstering (as noted by others) while making little, if any, difference in overall retention qualities.

2. Pancake-style holsters, in general, get much of their retention qualities from belt tensioning which pulls the outer holster panel inward against the body. This is true for both revolvers and semi-auto handguns. The overall shape of typical revolvers presents some challenges, with the wide frame and cylinder bulge near the holster mouth and the narrow barrel lower in the holster; which is one of the reasons why pancake-style holsters are a prefered method for carrying revolvers. The trigger guard area is the most prominent feature that provides opportunities for enhancing retention in revolver holsters, and close forming and boning at the trigger guard will be more effective than just about anything else we can do on a revolver holster.

3. In my opinion, reinforcement bands or panels provide relatively little benefit on traditional 2-panel pancake-style holsters. Since the inner and outer panels are joined by stitch-lines fore-and-aft of the weapon, those are the points at which we can expect the holster to flex under pressure. Thus, the addition of another layer of leather serves primarily as added bulk (although your beautifully tooled panels are certainly an aesthetic addition) rather than actual reinforcement of the holster mouth.

Personally, I have settled on 6/7 oz. veg-tanned for pancakes intended for the smaller and lighter handguns, and I think that it provides all the strength required for these applications. I usually use 7/8 oz. for most applications, and 8/9 oz. for the larger and heavier pieces.

Your basic design for the traditional 2-panel pancake is much like my own, and I notice that you also pre-form the holster to body contour, which contributes greatly to function and comfort.

Unlike some other makers, revolver holsters account for about half of my production (and the J-frame S&W's are very popular indeed). With your superior skills I think that you will quickly gain a following among revolver users as you develop your designs and add to your offerings.

Best regards.

[particle]

I appreciate everyone's input, and will take it all into consideration when I start making it again tonight. I also agree about the reinforcement on this style not really being necessary. I probably get 1 order out of 20 that doesn't want the extra piece, so I figure as long as people keep ordering them, I'll keep offering them. Personally, I like the way they look - that little visual detail, but agree it doesn't help much unless it actually wraps the mouth of the opening more like the Avenger style.

Lobo - I agree with your comment in #1 about the accelerated wear if you crimp down the top of the cylinder area. I think I will focus my retention efforts in the trigger guard, and leave it at that.

Marine MP - I cut, dye, sew, then form. If you'd like to know more, here is my basic workflow:

1. Cut my pieces
2. Mark the stitch lines
3. Tool if necessary
4. Groove
5. Edge the stuff I won't have easy access to later
6. Dye
7. Burnish the edges of the reinforcement pieces
8. Glue the reinforcement pieces on the body
9. Sand the edges flush
10. Edge
11. Stitch
12. Glue the front face to the back face
13. Sand
14. Edge
15. Stitch
16. Apply maker's mark (Dampen specific area with a sponge, then stamp - much easier to do this prior to actual forming)
17. Wet form
18. Dry in oven at about 135 for about 40 minutes
19. Air dry overnight
20. Gum Trag the interior
21. Dye and burnish the edges
22. Oil the grain side and let rest for 12-24 hours
23. Apply finish and let dry
24. Apply 2nd coat of finish and let dry

[Haystacker]

These are a couple of holsters I made for revolvers. The one is for a GP100 3 inch barrel and it is molded close. Customer says that it wears good and conceals well.

The tan and brown holster is for a j frame. It is not molded as close but it still fits the pistol well. No problem with retention.

Jeff

Also, these are 7/8 oz herman oak

Edited February 6, 2011 by Haystacker

[particle]

Thanks Jeff - nice looking holsters! Can I ask how you formed the indention in the trigger guard? That's a technique I haven't quite figured out just yet.

[Haystacker]

I bone them with a piece of deer antler while it is in the vacuum bag. I rounded off the antler to approximately 1/2 inch or so. It is much bigger than a sharpie. I think most anything would work. Boning it while in the vacuum bag I think is the trick.

[marine mp]

Particle,

Thanks for the rundown. Semper-fi Mike