Rolling The Cantle Binding

[mworthan]

Hello,

I hope that some of you folks can help me out to maybe find a hole or two in my process where I am not doing enough to prepare my binding for shaping because I am having a heck of a time (sometimes easier and sometimes harder) to get all my wrinkles out from underneath the Cheyenne roll. I am using about a 9 oz piece of skirting for starters, skiving the leather down about halfway out and around the edges (maybe not enough), glue down the top, roll it around the back and then start from the ear and work my way across. Seems like I get to one area at times and there is no way I am going to get all of that wrinkle smoothed out. other times it happens without too much fuss. I just walked back in from the shop and I've got one of those bad ones going on.

How to you guys do it? What is your process and what is some of the big gotcha's that if you don't pay close attention, it just ain't gonna happen?

Thanks for any help you can give, I'm hung out here in Rome, GA with no local saddlemakers I know of to talk to and watch.

- Mike

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

Mike, I am not sure that you would want to be around when I am doing it, unless you are wearing a good set of ear plugs! Language gets a little raw. Anyway, not that I am the best at this, but; I start with 7/8oz. and around the bottom edge and back to about the roll I skive about 1/2 thickness off, as for the ears, I really skive the area that will be under and around the point of the cantle I work it down even thinner so that the wrinkles will work out easier. I usually start at the the center and work out to the ends on both sides, it pushes more leather towards the ends, but; thats where I have skived it the most and work out the most wrinkles. Also, I do not glue when I first put the binding on because I work really hard at stretching the binding while cased,starting by tacking one point and stretching to the other point around the edge, for me it helps the binding to form around the whole thing, and actually get the top side to form without anything but a couple of tacks 9usually 5 or 6) in the stitching groove to keep it in place till it dries and forms. That is when I tool the binding, if it is going to be tooled. I also like the way it stitches and glues on once it is really dryed. It also dies, and edges better for me. This is the way I do it, oh yeah, I also use a lot of "salty" language and body english. If there is a better way I will be very interested, I will be watching this thread to see what the others say.

Hope that helps.

Bob

[JRedding]

This sounds familiar, I've had those moments it wasn't safe to open the door, but I may be able to help with this one. your leather selection and skiving sound pretty good to me I think you're difficulty may be in how you lay it down and where you're putting the extra leather left behind by shaping around the concave side of a binder. I usually give it a good pre-fit before I glue anything to make sure it's going to submit, this helps stop surprises like I didn't skive thin enough and now it's too late because I've glued it all up. Once you've taken you're best guess and you're ready don't start in the middle and work outward, this only creates more surplus leather to deal with the farther towards the cantle points you go. Rather than stretch it around a cantle you need to bunch it under the cantle, basically push the leather together to make it form a concave shape rather than try to stretch it all the way around and hope you don't have too much extra before you reach the end. Start at about the ten and two positions ( if you're standing behind it ) and work the leather inward towards the top center of the cantle, this should get you started in the right direction, then start below the ten and two positions and do the same, pushing it together rather than stretching it towards the cantle points. With the right leather choice, some moisture, and just a few minutes it should fit well. Just stop and think which way you need to work the leather to make it become concave under the binder and it's pretty self-explanatory really, you'll see which way to go. It's the same thing when shaping seats in, don't start trying to form leather into the dish of a seat by working it upward towards the cantle top, start at the top of the cantle and work downward, pushing more material into the dish will make it become a concave shape which is what you want when shaping into the dish. Basically anytime you need to form leather into a concave shape like seat dishes or under cantles, push don't pull. I hope this makes sense and cuts down on the frustration a little for you guys.

[Billy H]

Thanks Bob and JReddings,

I have been struggling with the binders.

How do you guys make it look nice and neat when cutting the excess after sewing. I work really hard to make the sewing look nice, but when I cut the excess leather off--- the end result is poor. ( very frustrating )

Thanks Billy

[bruce johnson]

I pretty much do like Jim but an old man showed me a trick after fighting a few. I cut my binders on a slight curve. I don't use a pattern, just kind of do it by eye. I skive like has already been mentioned. Once I have it wet up and cased to be back to right and moldable, I kind of fold it a little down the middle where it will lay over the back of the Cheyenne roll and shape it some. Put a stitch groove in the leading edge with will be the long side of the curve. When I lay it in place, center the binding and tack in the middle and work ymy way out to the corners tacking every so often in the groove line. As you lay that long side down, the shorter back/underneath edge will tuck up underneath almost on its own.

There is a lot less bubble to work out underneath for me. I do that like Jim and kind of compress small bubbles at a time. I was taught to start that in the corners and work in about 3" sections at time. By the time I get up on top, most of the time I don't have any bubbles at all. I run a tickler around underneath to push everything up tight ahd throw a few small nails in the from the bottom the hold it up tight.

[mworthan]

I pretty much do like Jim but an old man showed me a trick after fighting a few. I cut my binders on a slight curve. I don't use a pattern, just kind of do it by eye. I skive like has already been mentioned. Once I have it wet up and cased to be back to right and moldable, I kind of fold it a little down the middle where it will lay over the back of the Cheyenne roll and shape it some. Put a stitch groove in the leading edge with will be the long side of the curve. When I lay it in place, center the binding and tack in the middle and work ymy way out to the corners tacking every so often in the groove line. As you lay that long side down, the shorter back/underneath edge will tuck up underneath almost on its own.

There is a lot less bubble to work out underneath for me. I do that like Jim and kind of compress small bubbles at a time. I was taught to start that in the corners and work in about 3" sections at time. By the time I get up on top, most of the time I don't have any bubbles at all. I run a tickler around underneath to push everything up tight ahd throw a few small nails in the from the bottom the hold it up tight.

Thanks Guys. There is one thing that Bruce said that has me wondering if I am starting this thing all wrong. Seems from what Bruce says that most of these bindings are cut straight and what Bruce likes to do is cut a slight arch with the longest edge being along the stitch groove side and thus forcing the shorter side of the arch to stretch (making it tighter as it is tacked in place) underneath the roll. Here is where I may be causing myself a lot of problems... I have been using a pattern that is in the shape of the cantle, just like Watt does. Basically a large letter "C". That puts a lot of leather out there to be compressed under the roll once I think about it.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are most of you cutting a straight piece (or in Bruce's case sligthly arched) then tacking and bending it along the cantle? If you are I am definately on the wrong (or just more difficult) track by creating a basic fan shape with the biggest part needing to be compressed (maybe excessively) to get it smoothed out under the roll.

[JRedding]

Thanks Guys. There is one thing that Bruce said that has me wondering if I am starting this thing all wrong. Seems from what Bruce says that most of these bindings are cut straight and what Bruce likes to do is cut a slight arch with the longest edge being along the stitch groove side and thus forcing the shorter side of the arch to stretch (making it tighter as it is tacked in place) underneath the roll. Here is where I may be causing myself a lot of problems... I have been using a pattern that is in the shape of the cantle, just like Watt does. Basically a large letter "C". That puts a lot of leather out there to be compressed under the roll once I think about it.

Am I understanding this correctly? Are most of you cutting a straight piece (or in Bruce's case sligthly arched) then tacking and bending it along the cantle? If you are I am definately on the wrong (or just more difficult) track by creating a basic fan shape with the biggest part needing to be compressed (maybe excessively) to get it smoothed out under the roll.

In my opinion you're right about cutting a binder in a shape rather than a straight piece, it does add more leather to do something with on the underside. By shaping the straight piece to fit the top side of a cantle it naturally starts you in the right direction on the bottom. And learning to shape a straight piece onto a cantle saves waste during lay out and cutting. A lot of people use the shaped one and it works fine for them, I just like straight, I feel there is some advantage to the straight once you learn to work with it. I'd like to ask where on the hide most of you are choosing to cut a piece for a cantle binder though ?

[mworthan]

The straight or slightly arched is going to be how I handle the next one. It seems to mess up a lot of leather to do a "C" shaped binding piece and I think that shaping the straight(ish) binding would naturally make it easier to compress underneath the roll. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate all of your input. I mean it. - Mike

[JRedding]

The straight or slightly arched is going to be how I handle the next one. It seems to mess up a lot of leather to do a "C" shaped binding piece and I think that shaping the straight(ish) binding would naturally make it easier to compress underneath the roll. Thanks for all the help. I really appreciate all of your input. I mean it. - Mike

I hope we've helped, you ask about trimming the excess, I just try to fit it as cleanly as possible under the cantle and work out the ripples before sewing it, I don't know about anyone else but mines skived about down to billfold weight by the time it reaches the stitch so it's fairly easy to tame. I can't seem to run a french edger without gouging something so I've learned to stand mine up and trim with a sharp knife, kind of like surgery for a minute but it's the only clean way I've mastered to do it. This is the kind of thing Bruce usually seems to have some neat trick for maybe he's got a suggestion.

[bruce johnson]

I don't know if it is a trick or not. I use a round bottom kind of French edger with some sweep to it. If I sew dry to avoid a rat butt pattern on top, then I spritz a little water on the bottom and let it soak in before I trim it. Cutting the binding with this tool and little moisture makes a nice slick edge. I just kind of try to run one rail over the stitchline and so far I haven't cut any off. If you keep the toes ground off the tool, you can run it right up into the corners. My leather is probably 6/7 or so there. This is an old Osborne #1 and it works.

[BondoBobCustomSaddles]

I use a "cantle binding edger" that I got from Weaver. It has about a 4"/5" long curved front before it gets to the actual edger part. It has what looks to be a #3 french edger on it. It works really slick and makes triming off the excess easy.

Bob

[Billy H]

Thanks Guys!

I just don't know? I think maybe I am not working the rinkles out enough or in the wrong direction.

The old saying-----pictures are worth a thousand words would hold true in this case.

Denise if you happen to read this would you bring up that one thread on how to post pictures please. For some reason I just can not get it done and can not find that thread.

Lots of good people on this forum and a whole lot of talent! Billy

Edited February 17, 2011 by Billy H

[Denise]

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=15122

Here you go, Billy. It is pinned at the top of the Computer Help section.

[Billy H]

Thanks Denise!

[mworthan]

FYI... Many thanks to all who contributed. Seems that this little post has made a huge difference in the way my cantle binding went on this go around and I want to thank those guys who suggested that I cut a straight or slightly arced binding. I used Bruce's concept of an arced binding and it almost folded itself around the cantle back, very little shaping to work out the wrinkles. On odd thing you do have to fight is the binding wanting to go straight between the temporary nails along the stitch groove. This wasn't much of a problem when I was ready for glue up as I just soaked it good after the glue dried and followed the line in a smooth arc with a wet binding. Another thanks to Aaron at Panhandle Leather who recommended Masters Glue over the Barge I have been using. Aaron seems like a super nice guy and I have started ordering my HO from them. been getting good stuff. Good lord that was some nice glue to use and goes on like a dream without having to push it around like crazy and wait forever for it to dry. About the consistancy of evaporated milk. Anyway, thanks everybody. This is a great resource for getting things done quicker (and better) when your stuck out here like I am. - Mike

Edited March 8, 2011 by mworthan

[Aurelie]

I SO love this forum !

it's like Alibaba 's cave!!

a handful of tricks

great!

here is the way i learnt from a Montana's saddle maker (not sure it's the right or best way...but sure i will improve it with time and adding my own tricks )

so far it works rather good

1/ cut a strip of leather of the length of the cantle that you take in the belly of the hide

2/ skive it down to 1/8" or a bit less (according to the "feeling " you have with the leather)

3/ saturate it

4/ wood glue on it

5/ you screw it under the cantle, behind the ear of the seat (temporary screw)

6/you pull on it, stretch it around the cantle so that it comes nice on the seat

7/ screw on the other side

then i do as said up there : using a srewdriver or an edger and i push on the leather underneath the cheyenne roll to form the leather

=> here the trick is : if leather too wet, it won't hold shape

you may have to use a bit your hairdryer to cheat a bit

at some point , you have to remove the screws and cut the extra leather on the sides

8/ let it dry

9/ mark the stitching line on the biding

10/ (tricky part - even more here in france because the drill bits are shorter than there in the USA) you use your dremel and drill the holes

(second tricky part) and you try to drill "straight" so that if you look underneath the cheyenne roll , the stiching line is the same nice one than on top of the cheyenne roll (and believe me : it's NOT easy)

and last :

11/ you stitch it by hand

after that i put the saddle "up side down" so that i can see the underside of the cheyenne roll then i mark a nice line along the side of the cheyenne roll and i cut the extra leather with a knife (with EXTRA care because you do not want to cut the back cantle)

then i wet it and rub down to make it flat and nice (as nice as i can )

and FYI and if it can make you feel better :

I swear a LOT when working on my saddles

My biggest trouble so far? drilling holes in a neat and nice line underneath

and i wish i had longer drill bits

And 1 question : Have you an easy way to put on binding on straight cantles???

the way i have just "scare me off"

=> you drill the holes halfway from one side (because the drill bits are never long enough) and then you have to drill from the other side and cross fingers so that you meet the other hand of the hole and you stay straight.......

[harrington]

OH NO! not the drill bit for sewing, I mean no disrespect to your teacher, but you need to call Bob Douglas in Sheridan, Wyoming and get a good awl blade and learn to hand sew the traditional way. The drill bit removes material and you will never get a straight line. With an awl blade in a good haft you will eventually learn to sew beautiful lines of stitching that looks like it was done on a sewing machine, tight, clean, and uniform.

[Aurelie]

:D i am "open minded"

:D

if you have an idea to "avoid" using a dremel...i am up to use it!

because it's more a "pain in the butt" than a joy since usually the drill bit is on the short hand and it's really tricky to avoid "nasty marks" on the leather

:D

thanks for the tip ! i will email him (easier than phone regarding time zone héhé :D)

[harrington]

I'm assuming there are some posts somewhere on the site about handsewing with an awl and two needles, but you can also get Al Stohlman's book, Handsewing Leather, for a good resource. Were you able to get in touch with Bob Douglas? His daughter owns Sheridan Leather Outfitters and she may be easier for you to reach. Good luck

[Aurelie]

Not yet Harrington but i know how to get in touch with his daughter !

Took me eons to find her when i needed a "special" punch but now i know how and where to find her!

i should be in Sheridan in May 2012 so i guess i can order and pick it up then

[RidersChoiceSaddleCo]

Mike, I noticed that you are not far from our shop since you are in Rome Ga. which is only about an hour away. If you ever have trouble or need some tips contact me and you can ride up and spend some time with our master saddler. He has been building for 40+ years and he makes it look easy. Jerry

[horsewreck]

In my opinion you're right about cutting a binder in a shape rather than a straight piece, it does add more leather to do something with on the underside. By shaping the straight piece to fit the top side of a cantle it naturally starts you in the right direction on the bottom. And learning to shape a straight piece onto a cantle saves waste during lay out and cutting. A lot of people use the shaped one and it works fine for them, I just like straight, I feel there is some advantage to the straight once you learn to work with it. I'd like to ask where on the hide most of you are choosing to cut a piece for a cantle binder though ?

Jim, I came across this topic and your posts on cutting out a rolled cantle binder straight instead of curved or round which is the method I have a always used. I made a note of your comments and last week used the straight cut piece method you described and I have to tell you that is the single best tip I have ever got on saddle making. I cut it out from a piece of 7-8oz. thinned it on the ends and bottom to around 4oz, cased it up and tacked it down on top starting from the center. Buy the time I got down to the ears I could see it wanted to fold up under up the bottom almost on it's own. I could have only been happier if it had sewn itself. Just goes to show you you can teach a old dog new stuff. Thanks again.... Jeff

[Go2Tex]

I would like to echo the other sentiments and suggestions. I have gotten away from tacking the binding, however. I find that it messes up my stitch line and is really not necessary on the backside. I figured out through trial and error that part of the trouble with shaping the binding was that I was not giving myself enough room underneath in the fold of the back cantle piece. Obviously, the more I layed the cantle back, the more trouble I had shaping the binding in the fold, wrinkles were harder to deal with and my fingers hurt like hell.

The key seems to be in shaping the fold area of the back cantle to allow enough room to work. This requires laying it back off the top of cantle quite a bit, which, of course, causes a wide gap between the cantle top rim and the back cantle piece.

If you use a cantle filler, it will span the gap but not really fill it in and will leave a depression or crease. The gap is still there and that seems to make for a floppy roll, or potentially so. The gap can be filled in with a wedge shaped piece of leather cut from the edge of a thick piece of skirting. Once glued into the gap, it adds a bit of rigidity and also, I believe, makes stitching a bit easier since there is less opportunity for the needles to get off their path between the front and back.

So, first off, I use an arched pattern. I cut the binding from the middle of the side, down low where the grain is not real fleshy but has some stretch to it and try to get the edge that will show on the front into the firmer leather. I want a nice edge, so this is important.

I case it as normal and then try to pull it through my Heritage lap skiver splitter without totally distroying it and my workbench it is attached to and the workshop wall the bench is attached to. Then, if it is still in useable shape, and about 7/8 oz., I start shaping it over my roll and working out the wrinkles underneath as described. Usually, it needs a bit more skiving in the critical areas if it's a firm piece of leather. I use the saddler's hammer flat end to push the leather into the fold and up under the roll at the ear cut area. I shape it as best I can and let it dry. I don't tack it at all. (rawhide is another story). Sometimes I'll tack it on the sides at the ear cut but that's just to keep it from slipping around as I shape it. Once dry, if it needs tooling, I'll mark it, rewet, flatten it out and tool it, then reshape it and let it dry again. Then slick and dye the front edge, and glue it down. I prefer to stitch it dry. I might rewet the back fold area if need, but wet leather will not pull up as tight without tearing through the stitches.

I use Jeremiah Watt's cantle binding trimming tool. It costs an arm and a leg, but that baby is worth every penny.