particle Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Well, I finally got around to making myself a gun belt (1.5")... I ordered blanks a little while back from Weaver, bought a skiver from another forum member, skived them down to an undetermined thickness (no calipers at the moment, but the finished thickness still ended up being about 1/4"), and tried to figure out the proper way to build a double layer belt using the Stohlman belt book as reference (no mention of double layer belts in his book). I would greatly appreciate feedback and constructive criticism on these first two belts before I start making them for customers... My first attempt - a belt for myself. The edges look like crap. I was trying to use the brown Edge Kote method shown in the Bianchi DVD, but I guess since I did not wet the edges first, I had a hard time getting smooth edges. That stuff has an odd smell anyway, so I guess I won't use it anymore... In the future I think I will use Hidepounder's method for edge burnishing. The finish was two brushed on coats of Angelus 600 - wish I would have airbrushed it... LOL Is this wrinkling to be expected on the back side? Or do I need to do something to prevent this? Here is a belt I made for my son. I made it a little long so he could grow into it, and also skived it down a little thinner. Not sure how thick it is - I forgot to measure it. The build and colors were the same, but I recycled one of his old belt buckles, which also meant I had to cut the belt down to 1 1/4". I had the light box setup and wanted to go ahead and snap some pics, but the edges weren't done yet in these photos. I ended up burnishing with beeswax, then finished with Angelus 600 sponged on, but this time I cut it 50/50 with water - much happier with the way it came out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bitone40 Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Very nice indeed .. im sorry i dont have any critiques on the belt because they look fine to me , I like the color of them and the stitching looks good also, is yours two pieces glued / sewen together or do you add a stiffener in between? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Thank you - yes, they are two layers. I bought belt blanks from Weaver - 8-9oz, then skived them down. I've never used a skiver before I worked on these belts, nor do I have a thickness guage - I was just running the blanks through until it started shaving some of the flesh away. I was a little more aggressive when I did my son's belt - I wanted it quite a bit thinner. His belt probably ended up right at about 1/8" thick, if not a tad over. No stiffeners on these. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shooter McGavin Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Did you use the roller guide attachment for the Boss? Looks good BTW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K-Man Report post Posted March 9, 2011 Bet it took some time stitching those on that BOSS. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 10, 2011 I don't own the roller guide attachment yet. I wanted to buy it, but after sewing these without it, I don't really think I need it. Wasn't too hard to keep straight. Yep - it took a while to sew them, but probably only about 5 minutes if I had to guess. The worst part was running out of bobbin thread on my belt when I was about 4 inches from the end.... LOL Wishing for a powered machine one of these days... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big G Report post Posted March 10, 2011 I don't own the roller guide attachment yet. I wanted to buy it, but after sewing these without it, I don't really think I need it. Wasn't too hard to keep straight. Yep - it took a while to sew them, but probably only about 5 minutes if I had to guess. The worst part was running out of bobbin thread on my belt when I was about 4 inches from the end.... LOL Wishing for a powered machine one of these days... wonder if you can use prewound bobbins in a tippmann boss? mine had one in the box when i bought it but i havent tried one yet. they usually hold more thread than you can wind on by hand Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rkleather Report post Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) LOL, yup.. Looks killer! Edited March 10, 2011 by rkleather Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K-Man Report post Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Yep - it took a while to sew them, but probably only about 5 minutes if I had to guess. That's faster than I can do it with a powered machine. Edited March 10, 2011 by K-Man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lobo Report post Posted March 10, 2011 Both belts look very good. Given your proven talent, I expect nothing but perfection will result from your continuing efforts. My Cobra Class 4 stitcher is set up at about 60 stitches per minute, which is actually pretty comparable to what can be done on the Tippmann Boss. I like the added control of slower speed. I estimate about 10 minutes per belt for stitching (fancy stitch patterns take considerably more time, both to lay out the pattern and to perform). When doing several belts at a time I like to use the roller guide, but I frequently do a belt or two without taking the time to set up the roller guide. Staying in the stitching groove on a belt isn't all that difficult to do. Looking good, sir. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Thanks Lobo - I didn't time myself, so maybe it was longer than 5 minutes to stitch it. Once I started cranking that lever, it didn't feel like it was too long - at least not once I started thinking about how much it would cost me to upgrade to a powered machine... I agree about staying in the stitching groove - I figured it would be much more difficult to keep a straight line, but it really wasn't bad at all. I just made a pretty deep groove to make sure it was easy to see as I cranked along. I appreciate the compliments. My father-in-law wants a tooled belt. He said he'd be happy to buy it from me. He'll probably have second thoughts when I tell him how much tooled belts cost (I haven't researched costs yet). Anyone have any idea what's a good price to charge for a floral tooled belt? I'm figuring in the $250-300 range, but really have no idea. (edited to add: I won't charge him full price...) Edited March 10, 2011 by particle Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K-Man Report post Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) ... at about 60 stitches per minute, which is actually pretty comparable to what can be done on the Tippmann Boss. I'd like to see that being done on a BOSS. That's one stitch per second being cranked out on it. Maybe Popeye after downing a can of spinach could do that I guess. Particle: The price you list is what I've seen for an average price for a tooled belt. Most folks determine a per inch price for tooled work and then price accordingly. Edited March 10, 2011 by K-Man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lobo Report post Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) I'd like to see that being done on a BOSS. That's one stitch per second being cranked out on it. Maybe Popeye after downing a can of spinach could do that I guess. Particle: The price you list is what I've seen for an average price for a tooled belt. Most folks determine a per inch price for tooled work and then price accordingly. No Popeye here, and I don't care much for canned spinach. My experience with the Tippmann Boss machine is limited to about two years, during which I turned out over 2,000 holsters plus assorted belts and accessories, so I will readily admit to my limitations in ability and experience. Patterns cut and assembled, stitching grooves cut and ready to go? 50 or 60 stitches per minute poses no particular problem, unless one likes to admire each one individually as it takes place. About 7 months ago I added a Cobra Class 4 machine, and I find it to be everything Cobra Steve has described it as (or in the words of Mr. John Bianchi, the "Dream Machine"). I have found this machine to be an absolute pleasure to operate, easy to maintain, and exceptionally precise in its applications. For general production work I can't imagine anything to compare, and I doubt that any company stands behind their products like Steve at Leather Machine Company has done. That having been said, I will keep my Tippmann Boss machine and use it for occasional small jobs, and I find it to be very handy for prototype work. My apprentice likes the Boss quite well, it not being as intimidating as the 300-pound pedestal-mounted Cobra Class 4, and she can stitch out holster patterns just about as fast as she can cut and assemble them, on the Boss machine (she can cut 12 to15-plus patterns per hour by hand, by the way, and usually gets more work done before lunch than most people get done all day, so I don't mind buying her a good lunch). I find little difference in overall production time between using the Tippmann Boss machine and the Cobra Class 4 "Dream Machine". Where I do perceive differences is in the ease of operation, ease of adjustment, ease of maintenance, and much reduced operator fatigue when using the Cobra Class 4 machine. The Tippmann Boss is a fine machine, limited by the requirements for frequent adjustments in thread tensioning and stitch length, and prone to parts breakage caused by production of critical parts in zinc alloys rather than more durable metals (my opinion only, your experience may be different). Frankly, I would still be using the Tippmann Boss machine for general production work except for the frequency of repairs due to parts failures (during my limited experience of two years-plus). Tippmann's customer service has always been very good, and I have never had any complaints about their follow-through efforts, but in a business that requires production on a time schedule there is no room for breakdowns that require waiting for replacement parts on a regular basis. Lots of room here for opinions and, as usual, we have a forum member who steps up with an opinion. Sometimes opinions are accompanied by documented facts and/or real-world experience. Sometimes opinions are merely stated as a means of self-expression. Sometimes opinions are inserted as a means of trying to trigger a response from others. I have chosen to respond with facts and real-world experience. Maybe some will appreciate the effort to contribute, rather than to gratuitously challenge others. Best regards. Edited March 11, 2011 by Lobo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
colt1911 Report post Posted March 11, 2011 Lookin great as always Particle! I always look forward to seeing new pictures of your products. How is the Angelus dye workin out for you? the reason im asking is because one of my friends wants a belt and holster done in pink with black lace As far as i know, Angelus is the only ones to make pink dye. Ive never used the stuff before and was wondering how it compares to Fiebings oil based dye? Is it water based? Spirit or oil based? Any tips and hints will be greatly appreciated because my efforts to try and talk her out of pink have failed miserably lol. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
K-Man Report post Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Lots of room here for opinions and, as usual, we have a forum member who steps up with an opinion. Sometimes opinions are accompanied by documented facts and/or real-world experience. Sometimes opinions are merely stated as a means of self-expression. Sometimes opinions are inserted as a means of trying to trigger a response from others. I have chosen to respond with facts and real-world experience. Maybe some will appreciate the effort to contribute, rather than to gratuitously challenge others. Hardly an opinion on my part. My statements are based on real world experience of having used the BOSS. Folks reading this will just have to decide for themselves what the BOSS is capable of doing. Edited March 11, 2011 by K-Man Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shooter McGavin Report post Posted March 11, 2011 As for the wrinkling on the inner layer, it might help if you "roll" the inner layer on. It will sort of pre curve the belt though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 11, 2011 Lookin great as always Particle! I always look forward to seeing new pictures of your products. How is the Angelus dye workin out for you? the reason im asking is because one of my friends wants a belt and holster done in pink with black lace As far as i know, Angelus is the only ones to make pink dye. Ive never used the stuff before and was wondering how it compares to Fiebings oil based dye? Is it water based? Spirit or oil based? Any tips and hints will be greatly appreciated because my efforts to try and talk her out of pink have failed miserably lol. Thank you sir - I appreciate the compliment. I'm actually only using the Angelus 600 finish, and haven't tried any of their dyes. I've just used Fiebing's Pro Oil dyes, which I've been very happy with thus far. As for the wrinkling on the inner layer, it might help if you "roll" the inner layer on. It will sort of pre curve the belt though. I'm not sure I know how to do that... can you elaborate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yepod Report post Posted March 11, 2011 (edited) Very nice as usual Particle! I'm very impressed (read jealous!) of your ability to do 'out of the gate' impressive work on your first go at anything. Holster making, tutorial video making, tooling and now belts. What's next on the drawing board? Great job!! Edited March 11, 2011 by yepod Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 11, 2011 Thank you yepod - very nice of you to say... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shooter McGavin Report post Posted March 12, 2011 I'm not sure I know how to do that... can you elaborate? Page 17 on this PDF file touches on it. http://leatherworker.net/SimmonsHolster.pdf I think the technique also applies to bigger circles, like belts. Worth a try if nothing else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
particle Report post Posted March 12, 2011 Ahh, that's what I was imagining, but wasn't sure. Thanks for the link. I have a copy of that article printed out somewhere... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane in Baton Rouge Report post Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) deleted Edited June 6, 2011 by Shane in Baton Rouge Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shane in Baton Rouge Report post Posted June 6, 2011 Hi Eric, Beautiful as usual. I just tried a double thickness gunbelt this weekend using weaver blanks. I had a similar wrinkling problem on the inside and the belt actually cracked on the outside after oiling and just sitting watching TV "working" the belt by hand to try to get it to be a little more flexible. I, like you put flesh to flesh. I wonder if a flesh to grain glue would work better to prevent the wrinkling. While working on this prototype, I skived the inner piece down to zero, and glued a piece of medium (about 1mm) thickness suede onto the backside of the tounge area. It actually worked out great right there. I am going to try a gunbelt with a full suede backing with a decent weight suede. Glue and full stitch. Ill post the results, but still welcome any guidance on the regular double thickness belt to prevent wrinkling and cracking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
