Another Newbie ‘What Kind Of Machine’ Question

[1894leverguy]

First, I would like to say reading this forum has been the best sewing help I’ve ever gotten. There are some real professionals here that don’t mind helping beginners like myself get started

　

I need a machine that can sew two 1/8 pieces of leather. Total of ¼ inch.

The projects will be simple pancake/slide holsters, belts and slings. All three projects will use the same thickness leather and stitches per inch. The pancake and slide holster will be simple, two piece designs. They will be wet formed, burnished and dyed but this is all after sewing

All sewing projects will be flat

　

It seems as though the best machine will be the Adler 205-374.

My questions are;

Is this a good machine for this leather thickness and will it leave a lot of tool marks?

Is there any special attachment(s) needed to sew leather that does not come with the machine?

I don’t think I will need as guide for the belts or slings as the stitch distance will be short

Can the machine stitch as low as 100 SPM?

Is there any shop near Louisiana where I can see and buy one of these machines?

Are there any shops that specialize in reconditioned Adler 205 machines?

Is there better choice than the Adler 205? If so, why.

Is a jump foot such as the Campbell really that much better?

[TwinOaks]

Welcome to Leatherworker.net! First post, and a lot of questions, so I'll try to help with some of the answers:

That's a WHOLE LOTTA MACHINE for sewing a max thickness of 1/4 inch. Yes, try to over buy a machine...to do more than what you expect...but it's probably a little overkill.

I think you'd be better off with one of the 618 style sewing machine (check the ads at the top of the page for vendors) since you've limited it to 1/4 thickness AND you want a flatbed.

Tool marks in the leather is (mostly) caused by improper presser foot settings, or the feed dogs.

Speed is controlled by the ratio of the motor pulley to the flywheel pulley on the machine. This can be altered via speed reducer pulley, by using a slower motor, changing pulley ratios, or a combination thereof. Speed is NOT dictated by the machine, despite the machine's ability to sew at blinding speeds. Typically, machines set up for leather use a DC servo motor in conjunction with a speed reducer to both slow the machine and increase the torque.

For the type sewing you describe, a unison feed is probably the best choice. The Cambell is more than a jump foot, it's a needle and awl machine, which is a completely different type of stitch than your standard sewing machines.

Please read this thread : http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=25239, by Wizcrafts. It is full of information that you will find useful.

[1894leverguy]

Kinda wanted to stay away from the Chinese and used machines(a good , rebuilt machine would be great). I already have an old Brother. Parts, adjustments, etc.. are a concern

Starting with a good machine, either new or rebuilt, is what I would like to do

$2,250 for the Artisan 618-1 D2 sounds like a good deal but only if the machine works well and if it will hold up

Just as important as 100 SPM, I need a machine that will make a consistent, tight stitch

Will the 618 do this?

[TwinOaks]

ANY machine will make a tight consistent stitch if it's set up properly.

You didn't specify that you wanted to avoid a Chinese machine, nor that you wanted to avoid "used". That really limits your options, but hey, if you've got several thousand dollars for an Adler, go for it. It will certainly do all that your asking....once set up for it.

The 618 by Artisan, the Cobra class 18, Techsew 111, Sailrite 111, Consew 206, et al. are newer versions of the Singer 111.....and mostly made in Japan or China. As far as American made.....The only one I can think of that you can get as "new" is gonna be the Luberto's Classic. ...I called a while back and they're 7 grand. You *might* find a Tippmann Aerostitch in almost new condition, but I think they're out of production.

I think it's time to call in some of the experts on machines....

Art.....Wiz......Ronnie.....Steve, y'all need to chime in here.

[Wizcrafts]

1894leverguy;

I understand that you intend to sew two pieces of veg-tan leather into pancake holsters, belts and straps, not exceeding 1/4" thickness. What you haven't stated is the size of thread you want to use. This will determine the basic type of machine you will need; not just the thickness. If you can accept a maximum thread size of #138, a Japanese built Juki LU-1508 or Consew 206RB-(number) sewing machine will do the trick. These machines and other Japanese clones will sew over 3/8" with #138 thread, top and bottom.

Note, that the most current Consew, the 206RB-5, is now built in China. If you want a non-Chinese built machine, look for a good used, or unsold 206RB-4.

Adler makes flatbed and cylinder arm machines. But, the current crop are mostly built in China. You will have to poll the dealers to see who has a German built Adler.

Pfaff are excellent German machines. They have walking foot machines that will sew over 1/4", some with #138 thread.

As for the 100 RPM maximum motor speed, that is up to what options are available from the seller. If you purchase a machine with a low-speed capable servo motor and 2" pulley, you're set. Otherwise, you'll need to replace the motor with a true slow speed capable servo motor, or a 2" pulley and speed reducer on a clutch motor.

Be aware that not all servo motors will sew at speeds below 100 RPM. If you get one of those motors and try sewing at 1 stitch per second, it may drop out and fight you. Those motors have very little slow speed torque. I have a SewPro 500GR gear reduction servo motor, with a 50mm pulley, on my Japanese National 300N walking foot machine, and it will sew from the speed of grass growing, all the way up to 1500 rpm (after motor to flywheel reduction, about 600 stitches per minute, max.).

As to Campbell-Randall, it is the best stitcher you can buy, but is not really for beginners. It is a needle and awl machine that lives in a world of its own. You would do best to learn to sew on a walking foot machine first. If you decide to buy a Campbell, you should go get it in person and take some time to learn how to operate, adjust and maintain it, at the factory in Yoakum Texas.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Wizcrafts

[Rayban]

leverguy....I'm not one of them pros you referred to but I just got a new machine, Cowboy 3500, that can make easy work of those projects you mentioned.

While it is made in China, I believe Wiz would concur with me that it is a fine machine. And at $1700 I don't think you can get a better buy for a new machine.

[Art]

A lot of good suggestions. However, the first question is what size thread do you want to use? This will pretty much determine if you need a medium or big stitcher. There is quite a difference in price between the two. A Cobra class 18 (and others of the 618 ilk) will cost $1495 or there abouts. That is practically a rounding error on the cost of a big Adler. You can get a Cobra Class 18 AND a Cobra Class 4 (big stitcher) for the same price as the big Adler and they'll probably throw needle positioning in to boot. All of the current crop of 618SC and 441 clone machines will give good service as the top line Chinese machines are very very good. You have the money to spend, buy two top quality Chinese machines and cover all your bases.

Art

[Wizcrafts]

leverguy....I'm not one of them pros you referred to but I just got a new machine, Cowboy 3500, that can make easy work of those projects you mentioned.

While it is made in China, I believe Wiz would concur with me that it is a fine machine. And at $1700 I don't think you can get a better buy for a new machine.

I would agree 100%, but the OP specifically said he wanted to stay away from Chinese built machines. That's why I limited my response to US, Japanese and German built machines. He also asked about the American built Campbell machines.

I my humble opinion, there is no other harness/holster sewing machine in production that can equal the stitch quality of a Campbell-Randall or Union Lockstitch machine. I have used Union Lockstitch machines to produce hundreds of holsters, belts and pouches over the years, including the holsters used in the movie Romeo and Juliet. Freedman Harness has a floor full of Randalls, working day in and day out, making harness, bridles and reins for the Rockerfellers and other top equestrian businesses and breeders. A few years ago, Bianci had Campbell-Randall machines producing most of their holsters, pouches, and Sam Browne belts for Police, security, sporting and military use. In the hands of a skilled operator, nothing beats a Campbell-Randall or Union Lockstitch machine for stitch quality, tightness, and top/bottom appearance. Very few other machines can sew with liquid waxed linen thread either.

Just my 2 cents worth!

Now, if the OP wants to ask about Chinese built machines, I'll be glad to discuss them.

[1894leverguy]

I would like to thank all that have responded.

It would appear that Chinese sewing machines are better than what I was expecting them to be

It would also appear there aren’t too many other new machines available

　

Wizcraft quote

"Now, if the OP wants to ask about Chinese built machines, I'll be glad to discuss them."

Since it looks as though my machine will be Chinese built, what would be a good machine for a beginner?

Something without a big learning curve.

The work will only be what I described but I would like a machine that can easily handle it. Overbuilt for the work

Thread size

I have no idea what would be good. Actually, I was going to ask what would be a good thread and needle size

Lock stitch

I’ve seen this in the specs of the Artisan 618-1 D2. I would think a lock stitch would be necessary for sewing holsters but really don’t know.

Back tacking

Is this important on leather?

[Art]

Now your decision is fairly simple, 9" arm or something bigger.

The 9" arm 441 clone is the way you want to go, or the 16.5" arm if you want something more versatile. I have experience with the Cobra machines, they are excellent and the customer service is the best. Other distributors handle the 441 clones, some better than others. PM me with any questions. I recommend you find someone near who has one and take some of your leather over and test drive one.

Art

I would like to thank all that have responded.

It would appear that Chinese sewing machines are better than what I was expecting them to be

It would also appear there aren’t too many other new machines available

　

Wizcraft quote

"Now, if the OP wants to ask about Chinese built machines, I'll be glad to discuss them."

Since it looks as though my machine will be Chinese built, what would be a good machine for a beginner?

Something without a big learning curve.

The work will only be what I described but I would like a machine that can easily handle it. Overbuilt for the work

Thread size

I have no idea what would be good. Actually, I was going to ask what would be a good thread and needle size

Lock stitch

I’ve seen this in the specs of the Artisan 618-1 D2. I would think a lock stitch would be necessary for sewing holsters but really don’t know.

Back tacking

Is this important on leather?

[Cobra Steve]

Hello 1894leverguy, thank you for your interest, and thank you for joining. I would like to suggest that you contact the sewing machine dealers and speak with them(me included), and see what they have to say. I am sure that you will have a better idea on what you will need, making your decision as easy as possible.Thanks, Steve

Edited March 17, 2011 by Cobra Steve

[TwinOaks]

A 'thank you' to the "heavies" who chimed in.

[Wizcrafts]

I would like to thank all that have responded.

It would appear that Chinese sewing machines are better than what I was expecting them to be

It would also appear there aren't too many other new machines available

　

Wizcraft quote

"Now, if the OP wants to ask about Chinese built machines, I'll be glad to discuss them."

Let the discussion begin!

Since it looks as though my machine will be Chinese built, what would be a good machine for a beginner?

Something without a big learning curve.

The work will only be what I described but I would like a machine that can easily handle it. Overbuilt for the work

Art has already mentioned the Cobra stitchers, which are based in California. They are great machines. But, nobody has mentioned Cowboy stitchers yet. Cowboy stitchers are of equal quality and similar specifications to the Cobras. The Cowboy CB2500 (10.5" arm), CB3500 (9" arm), CB4500 (16.5" arm) and CB5500 (25" arm) are sold and supported by Bob Kovar, at Toledo Industrial Sewing Machines: 866-362-7397. They will sew all the holsters you can throw at them, with thread heavy enough to tie a bale of hay.

Thread size

I have no idea what would be good. Actually, I was going to ask what would be a good thread and needle size

For pancake holsters, 1/4 inch in total thickness, well molded to the shape of the gun, I would use #207 or #277 bonded nylon thread. To sew these thread sizes you need to use a #24 or #25 needle.

Lock stitch

I've seen this in the specs of the Artisan 618-1 D2. I would think a lock stitch would be necessary for sewing holsters but really don't know.

You are correct: you definitely want a lockstitch machine! Almost all sewing machines in general use are lockstitch machines.

Back tacking

Is this important on leather?

This is used to lock the starting and finishing stitches in place and prevent the work from coming undone. By sewing backwards into the same holes, for about three stitches, you lock the thread in place. You can also sew backwards, or turn the holster around, sewing a parallel stitch line for about 3/4 inch. This system is used by commercial holster manufacturers.

The three machines I mentioned are capable of sewing 1/2" (CB2500) and 7/8" (CB3500 and CB4500 models). The 2500 is bottom feed only and can leave tooth marks on the bottom. The others are compound feed, with a smooth feed dog that leaves no tooth marks. If you want to just sew holsters and belts, the 9 inch arm machines will do just fine. They all sew with very heavy thread and big needles, into dense leather, up to 7/8" thick. The CB2500 has a 10 1/2 inch long arm and the 4500 has a 16.5" arm length. If you ever sew a Western holster you will appreciate the longer arm on the CB4500. They do have table top attachments if you need a flat surface to support the work.