Quieter Leatherworking Question

[Urshag]

I live in a 3 floor house built in the 1800's that was converted into 3 apartments each floor a separate apartment. I live on the third floor and below me on the second floor lives the stereotypical old lady who bangs on her ceiling with a broom whenever I start hammering to tool some leather, set a rivet, punch a hole, etc etc.

I TRY to do everything I can to accommodate her delusion that she can expect to have total silence 24/7 as if she lived in a house on the edge of nowhere instead of in a very old building with walls and floors that are still intact only by the grace of God, bailing wire and spit.

I only do any hammering between 9am and 9pm but still, if I hammer more than a few minutes here and there she makes a grab for her broom and she starts poking holes in her ceiling with it.

So to get to the meat of my question, I want to find a quieter way to punch holes, set rivets, eyelets etc.

Now I have a slab of granite on a folding table for my work like that. (Sorry, I live in an apartment and I have no resources for a proper workbench.)

I have heard that putting a layer of closed cell foam under the slab can lessen the impact but I am not sure if that's true. So my questions are:

1. Will putting a layer of closed cell foam (AKA Tandy's "Poundo Board) under my granite slap help?
2. How about using a hand press? Tandy's is too expensive, but how about something like the Homepro? http://www.amazon.com/Homepro-Lr-Inch-Reach-Tool/dp/B003LVLYCS
3. As for a hand punch, I have a cheapo rotary one that never seems to line up with the anvil properly. How about a more expensive one such as: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310318187942 or http://cgi.ebay.com/8-3-4-Professional-Leather-Punch-Plier-Stainless-Steel-/140497083123 ?

Any other suggestions are welcome. Anything to stop her complaining! lol

Thanks!

Dennis

[TwinOaks]

The only way to prevent the sound transmission through the floor is to stamp/set/pound/hammer somewhere there won't BE any transmission to the floor. My suggestions would be do as much of your 'regular' work at the table as far as carving, drawing, tracing, etc., and when you need to use the maul/hammer set the slab in your lap or on your bed. The slab has enough mass to absorb the impact of the tool/punch, but if it's on a surface that doesn't transmit vibration, then she won't hear it as well, or at all.

.....or you could sneak into her place and 'misplace' the hearing aids.....

...but really, if it's that big of an issue, you might consider sitting outside (weather permitting) to do the 'loud' work. It might even garner you some interest by some customers if they see you working.

[Urshag]

The only way to prevent the sound transmission through the floor is to stamp/set/pound/hammer somewhere there won't BE any transmission to the floor. My suggestions would be do as much of your 'regular' work at the table as far as carving, drawing, tracing, etc., and when you need to use the maul/hammer set the slab in your lap or on your bed. The slab has enough mass to absorb the impact of the tool/punch, but if it's on a surface that doesn't transmit vibration, then she won't hear it as well, or at all.

.....or you could sneak into her place and 'misplace' the hearing aids.....

...but really, if it's that big of an issue, you might consider sitting outside (weather permitting) to do the 'loud' work. It might even garner you some interest by some customers if they see you working.

Thanks for the reply!

The bed idea is good, I might try that. But the outside thing is just not feasible sadly.

There isn't really anyplace on the property except the driveway and climbing down and then back up two flights of stairs every single time I need to use a maul would probably get tiresome very quickly.

I'm also hoping for to hear some thoughts on the punches I linked or the Homepro I linked as well. They may help as well to eliminate the noise from hole punching and simple settings.

Dennis

Edited May 19, 2011 by Urshag

[radar67]

I use the rotary Pro punch that Tandy sells. It is well made and has a lifetime warranty on the frame. The only part you have to replace are the tubes. There may be better out there, but I am happy with the one I have.

[wareagle]

The key to noise control is to isolate hard to hard surfaces that move or bounce.

what is usually done is vibration pads to break the path from the table legs to the floor, a foam mat like they use at the checkout works, if budget is a concern wash cloths or towels under the legs of the table.

the next thing is mass you need a lot of mass to keep the the vibrations down the marble helps but I would think about a heavier table or a log at table hight to absorb the inertia of th4e hammer blows before it gets to the floor.

as to the punches I use the tandy pro and it works great .

[KAYAK45]

Several people use a carpet remnant directly under the marble. Helps with noise, and seems to avoid some double strikes and bounce. Try that with wareagle's idea of leg insulation, of different kinds if necessary.

That should do the trick.

I just cannot help visualizing the pounding leather in bed, late at night. Huuuum?

[Urshag]

I use the rotary Pro punch that Tandy sells. It is well made and has a lifetime warranty on the frame. The only part you have to replace are the tubes. There may be better out there, but I am happy with the one I have.

Hmmm. I know when it comes to tools you get what you pay for, and I'm sure the Tandy Pro is worth every penny, but at $60 it's out of my price range at the moment. Does anyone have any experience with this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280567873751

or this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350461432137

Thanks!

Dennis

[infomage]

I agree on the you get what you pay for in tools. You arelooking at spending $20 on a maybe tool that is 1/3 of the way to the Tandy.The other option would be to get single punches you would use a maul with untilyou can afford the Tandy. As for sound deadening the first thing i would do ismove off of the card table. You would be better off putting the marble slab ona carpeted floor. May sound strange but it should be less noisy than the cardtable. If you could get some cheap used lumber you could build a simple solidwork table till you could get something better. I built my first work bench outof pallets not easy but it was solid. Do not be afraid to look around as youmight find you can cobble something out of a couple of old tables to makesomething that will work

Tlong

Think Positive Be Positive

[mrdabeetle]

Make her some earmuffs!

[BIGGUNDOCTOR]

Do a forum search for noise, quiet, etc. This has been covered a couple of times this past year.

Wood transmits sound very well, that is why it is used in so many musical instruments.

See if you can set up a small shed to use as a workshop.

Find another location, like a friend's garage, to do your work.

Go talk to your neighbor, and see if you two can work something out. Maybe make something that she can use, and give it to her to break the ice.

If she is that picky, you may not be able to get enough mass density under your slab to make her happy.

Look on Craigslist for used tools, as well as garage sales, fleamarkets, and other venues to get a better price.

[Urshag]

Do a forum search for noise, quiet, etc. This has been covered a couple of times this past year.

Wood transmits sound very well, that is why it is used in so many musical instruments.

See if you can set up a small shed to use as a workshop.

Find another location, like a friend's garage, to do your work.

Go talk to your neighbor, and see if you two can work something out. Maybe make something that she can use, and give it to her to break the ice.

If she is that picky, you may not be able to get enough mass density under your slab to make her happy.

Look on Craigslist for used tools, as well as garage sales, fleamarkets, and other venues to get a better price.

Well I found a rotary hole punch I like and I dug out my black and decker workmate bench. I did see those posts you mentioned and in one of them someone mentioned using the horse stall rubber matting you can get from Tractor Supply Co. A couple of layers of that matting on top of the workmate with my granite slab on top of that seems to work out OK. It's not perfect but it's better than it was.

One thing I am still curious about are handpresses. Has anyone found a cheaper alternative than the tandy version?

Thanks for all the replies everyone!

Dennis

[Des804]

I Have my slab on a Few old Books I was going to sell cheap at a garage sale anyways... It seems to muffle the sound a lot ( I also have them underneath a Tumbler of mine as well ).

[Sarah C]

I'm new here so I don't really know you or what you use your leatherwork for. BUT! If you profit from it, you could just politely explain to her that while the noise may be annoying, you also pay rent, and in order to pay that rent you need to make money, and that is how you do it. I mean, don't be rude about it, but in my experience, just being blunt (but POLITE!) usually makes people more willing to cooperate. Unless she has some sort of medical condition, she really has no right to deny you your ability to make money. I personally don't feel any different even if you were just doing this for fun... it's your house too.

I suggest you do what you can to muffle the noise, and if she's happy, then leave it alone, but if she starts poking holes in her ceiling again, I would try to talk with her. Explain what it is you're doing, why you do it, that you need to do it, you've taken measures to be quieter but it's just not possible and not unreasonable between the hours you mentioned.

I usually really like old people, but I feel like banging on the ceiling is just a really rude way of her asking you to be quiet. She could've very well just been nice about it and politely asked. I'm probably not as nice as you- I would've just turned on some really loud rock music to cover up her banging and my tooling, lol.

Edited June 2, 2011 by Sarah C

[Urshag]

I'm new here so I don't really know you or what you use your leatherwork for. BUT! If you profit from it, you could just politely explain to her that while the noise may be annoying, you also pay rent, and in order to pay that rent you need to make money, and that is how you do it. I mean, don't be rude about it, but in my experience, just being blunt (but POLITE!) usually makes people more willing to cooperate. Unless she has some sort of medical condition, she really has no right to deny you your ability to make money. I personally don't feel any different even if you were just doing this for fun... it's your house too.

I suggest you do what you can to muffle the noise, and if she's happy, then leave it alone, but if she starts poking holes in her ceiling again, I would try to talk with her. Explain what it is you're doing, why you do it, that you need to do it, you've taken measures to be quieter but it's just not possible and not unreasonable between the hours you mentioned.

I usually really like old people, but I feel like banging on the ceiling is just a really rude way of her asking you to be quiet. She could've very well just been nice about it and politely asked. I'm probably not as nice as you- I would've just turned on some really loud rock music to cover up her banging and my tooling, lol.

Well I appreciate the advice but I was really just looking for some tips on how to do what I do a little quieter, but I'm more than happy to share (read as VENT) about my experiences with her.

I've told her over the years that I make money from doing this and her reply was to sarcastically comment "I didn't realize this residential area had been rezoned for industry."

She has asked me to be quiet in person several times but she's just decided that banging on the ceiling is now the best way to communicate with me.

I've done everything I can to reduce the noise and to make sure that WHEN I do my hammering it's during acceptable hours but there is no pleasing some people. I truly believe she thinks she has the right to expect the kind of silence and solitude of living alone in the woods while living in an old apartment complex. Sorry, it's just not going to happen.

To give you an example she once complained that my fan (I'll repeat that, my $25 Wal Mart Window #@$^@! FAN) was too LOUD!

Thanks for letting me vent. LOL

Dennis

[Jordan]

Discount tool house like harbor freight for an Arbor press that may be able to be modified to set rivets grommets and the like, would cut down on the need to pound.

[Sarah C]

I've told her over the years that I make money from doing this and her reply was to sarcastically comment "I didn't realize this residential area had been rezoned for industry."

This has been going on for YEARS?! Dear lord, I'm sorry. And I thought living with my dad was annoying (split level house- I have the apartment downstairs but that doesn't stop him from barging in whenever he pleases or interrupting my dinner so we can "talk" aka "lecture about everything," or scream for me to come up expecting that I can actually hear him through the floor, my fans, tv, and banging on leather, then get mad when he has to repeat himself and/or call me).

Well, I'm glad I could give you a chance to vent. Miserable people like that suck, there's no dealing with them. Because of that, I have a new suggestion. Making wind chimes as a hobby! REALLY LOUD WIND CHIMES. Make sure you leave your four dollar walmart fan on too, when you test them all. At the same time. The look on her face would probably be worth it. But, like I said, you're nicer than me, haha. I would've just found ways to constantly make the problem worse on purpose. So come back to me if you give up on being quiet and want some ideas for very loud revenge. I got you covered!

Also- do you have carpeting in general on your floors? If you're operating on planks held up by the grace of god only, they've certainly shrank and dried out over the years, and would make an excellent sound conductor. Even thin carpet would transmit noise. Ripped up the carpet once in our victorian house and the wood was so old you could see straight through to the basement... and immediately tell when the light was on, etc. If you get a carpet and some sort of liner underneath, it would stop the echo or something (there's science to this, I swear!) and certainly dull what she hears. If you're REALLY into it, you could put down some of that soundproofing stuff- I know a friend in college who got some and just stuck it under his drumset and nobody could hear him anymore. I think it's cheap if you can find it as remnants... I know he found his for free. That way it's less about changing your workspace and more about changing what's under it in general- it may solve more than just your tooling problem- she wouldn't be able to hear much of anything you did anymore.

[jmorton]

I think that the answer is to put as much SOLID mass under your granite slab as possible to give you a really "dead" surface to work on. Then put your sound absorption material under that. For instance, if you could have a second slab under the first with a sheet of newspaper between them, and then several sheets under the bottom slab. Use a table that is as solid and heavy as possible and then put some poundo material between the table and the bottom slab and between the table legs and the floor. This "Dagwood sandwich" approach will tend to cancel out the different frequencies of sound. If this still doesn;t end the problem, I suggest that you build a lightweight sound hood from a very large cardboard box such as a refreigerator came in and then hot glue some of the 12X12 acoustic tiles inside it.

If all this fails then I think you need Maxwell Smart's "Cone of Silence".

Hope this helps,

John Morton

[BearMan]

Good Morning Sarah,

These are all very good suggestions. They all should help a lot,,, & may solve the whole problem. It they do, that's great. If by chance, you are getting a lot of the noise coming from the type of mallet/maul you are using,,, there are a couple good options. If you mainly get the noise when driving punches,,, or setting snaps, types of operations,,, you may want to consider switching to a "Dead blow" type of mallet. You can get them at a place like Lowe's for about $13.00-$14.00, & they come in a few different weights. If you are getting the noise while tooling,,, you may need to look at getting one of Bob Beards old mauls, because of the type of material they are made out of, creates less noise while tooling. Bob Beard no longer makes his mauls. We're not talking a LOT quieter,,, but they are somewhat quieter. Mauls make with the same material, are being made today. My Son is now making them,,, also. It's just an option,,, you can also tool with "Dead Blow" mallets,,, they would just be a bit harder to use. I hope this helps.. Ed the"BearMan"

[Urshag]

Thanks to everyone who replied! I found a good solution. I got an arbor press. I found a local shop that sells used and new machine tools. I bought a used 1 ton arbor press for $50.00.

I made a post about it here at:

http://leatherworker.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=32112&st=0&gopid=201797entry201797

With photos of my new tool/toy.

It works great and I couldn't be happier with it!

Thanks again everyone!

Dennis