finish on saddle

[Go2Tex]

Who carries this Texas Refining neatsfoot oil that you're using Keith?

[ClayB]

I'm really glad to hear that I am not the only one that likes Neat Lac. The 2 saddle makers that helped me make my first few saddles both told me that's what they use on tooled saddles, neatsfoot oil followed by Neat Lac rubbed in well with a piece of sheepskin as Keith said. Almost everyone else I have talked to says dont use it, oil wont penetrate it. I have found it will take oil, it just takes a little longer for it to soak in.

[kseidel]

You can purchase Neatsfoot oil direct at:

Texas Refinery Corp.

840 N. Main St.

Fort Worth, TX 76106

Phone: 817-332-1161

Fax: 817-332-2340

As far as Neat Lac is concerned, I sure liked the original formula better! They stopped usine tolulene and switched to xylene. I am not a chemist and do not know what the difference is, just that they work differently.

Keith

[daviD A Morris]

What do you guys recomend for finish on a saddle which the customer wants it to maintain a light color. The color of natural leather. Next saddle I'm making is for a western-pleasure competitor and those guys seem to pride themselves on having the lightest colored saddle. In the past I have used some kind of sealer, name of which would have no meaning in the USA, which I bought from Birdsall's Leather, in Sydney. It is something that they make or relabel. Trouble is, this sealer will not let any oil penetrate. After about a year the customers usualy oil their saddle and anywhere that the sealer has worn off of, eg. parts of fender and seat jockeys, the oil does penetrate, then the saddle looks "bloody awful".

After reading what Keith has said I'm now realising that not just the product used but the method of application can make a big difference.

Keith,

The lighter natural colored (as opposed to the dark colored saddles which I personaly prefer) that you make, are they antiqued? If I understand corectly you just antique and then apply neat-lac. apply the neatlac with wool-skin and work it in. Do you apply any oil or anything else before the neat-lac? Do those saddles darken much with your finishing process? How many years do you think the saddles keep the light color?

Thank you guys heaps for this topic, it has come along at just the right time for me.

regards

dam

[jonwatsabaugh]

David,

Get on John Willemsa's web sight and take a look at the saddle he got into the TCAA with. The saddle is actually a little lighter in person than in the photos. I know this was achieved by applying a light coat of olive oil each day for five days, then a top coat of Neat-Lac to finish it. In person the finish was very striking, and the color was magnificent! As a side note, I had the priviledge of building the tree for that saddle!

Jon

[Mike Craw]

Hey Jon!

Do you happen to have a link to John's site? Google keeps trying to tell me I spelled it wrong. Thanks.

Mike

[steve mason]

Hey Jon!

Do you happen to have a link to John's site? Google keeps trying to tell me I spelled it wrong. Thanks.

Mike

http://www.ljsaddlery.com

[kseidel]

G'day David'

Many years go (seems like another life) I made mostly show saddles and the natural unoiled look was the most popular; and still enjoys that honor. I found that the saddles without any oil discolored quickly due to UV rays and staining, no mater how bulletproof the finish. I began experimenting with different oils that would not darken significantly and would help to give life back into the leather aiding in the resistance to discoloration. This is when I discovered that it is not so much the type of oil, but the application that affects the color most. Oils with the lightest viscocity will yeild the lightest color. But even they will be dark if applied too heavily.

I Use Olive oil on most of my new saddles now. The depth of color is determined by how much oil is applied, and how quickly. A light coat of oil followed immediatly by another light coat will be much darker than the same two light coats with 8 - 12 hours between.

The real "art" in a light color is how the oil is applied. Hand applying with a sheepskin allows the most control. The amount of oil on, or "in" the sheepskin pad is the key. If you will wipe most of the oil out of the sheepskin and begin with ultra light pressure, you can achieve a very minimal coverage. Increase pressure as the oil dispenses from the pad maintaining the same amount of oil being applied to the surface. The pad will quickly become "empty" and you can rub over the surface again lightly to smooth out any streaks, befor getting more oil.

An oil's wicking property is also important. Many oils are blended or sulfinated using water or other substances as a carrier. The better the oil wicks, the deeper it will penetrate and not pool on the surface. There is no substitute for time to allow oil to penetrate. A good rule of thumb is to wait 8-12 hours before applying another coat. With olive oil, the final color is not evident for 3-4 days.

Different oils impart different colors. Even sulfinated oils or oils with great wicking properties will give a different color. How the oil reacts with the tannins in the leather will deternine the final result. Sunshine will also affect the color; either before or after oiling will have different affects. I use an oil here called TeeSee that is the most natural color that I have found other than leaving natural. Olive oil darkens as much as neatsfoot oil, but has generally better wicking properties and less oil will thoroughly condition, leaving less close to the surface. One coat will penetrate completely, where most neatsfoot oils never panetrate completely. The only neatsfoot oil that I have found that penetrates as well as olive oil is from Texas Refinery.

I do not know of a finish that is perfect for all natural saddles. None that I know of will stop the discoloration of UV rays from the sun. Unless you ride the saddle only inside, It will change color. When finally oiled, the saddle will then darken significantly. Most finishes will have to be stripped before oiling will be affective and even then will usually be blotchy. Acetone strips most lacquer finishes well, but not some like tan kote or bag kote. These are water based finishes that, once set, are very difficult to remove. They also do not protect well against staining and discoloration. They are a good topcoat for sealing. I prefer fiebings Colorless Harness Dressing for a topcoat on saddles that are going to be re-oiled frequently. It is NOT completely colorless and is not a suitable finish for natural saddles. However, it can be re-applied many times without build up, and readilly accepts oil without any stripping. It is more difficult to apply without streaking. Neat lac is still my favorite for most durable finishes. I like to work it into the leather like oil, and apply at least two light coats.

The lighter colored saddles that you have seen that I have made are antiqued. My process for this finish is as follows: after all tooling and shaping is complete, wash the leather with oxalic acid solution to remove any surface stains from handling and to prep the leather. Oxalic acid opens the pores and makes the leather very receptive. Then oil to the depth of color that I want... maybe one coat, maybe several. Wait at least 6 hours after last coat of oil before applying any tip coat. There must not be any oil left on the surface or the lacquer will not stick. Then apply a thorough coat of Neat Lac, rubbing it well into the surface. When dry, apply a coat of antique, working it into the tooling, and then buff off any excess. Follow with another coat of Neat Lac, controling the final drying for finish. If you want a high gloss finish, simply apply and leave alone to dry. If you continue to wipe your pad over the surface lightly as the lacquer dries, it will finish satin or even flat. It takes a little practice, but you can get a very natural finish.

The antique process certainly does darken, dependign somewhat on the color of the antique. I use mostly mahogany, but on the show saddles, I used light mahogany for a lighter color. You can also remove a lot of the antique with the final lacquer coat.

Most of these saddles need to be re-finished after about a year and and a half to two years. They will darken quite a bit when first re-finished. With this much Neat Lac and antique, it takes a long time for the oil to penetrate. Once it does, another coat will penetrate fairly quickly. I usually give them a really good cleaning which helps to remove some of the old finish. Completely re-finishing as original will make the saddle look close to new only a bit darker shade.

Sorry for the length of this post. Your question required a long answer. I hope this is the information that you wanted.

Keith

[Mike Craw]

Thanks Steve!

I can see why John enjoys the reputation he has.

Mike

[hidepounder]

I've been biting my tongue reading responses to this topic for days. I'm always interested in what products others use for finishes and how they are applied. The process Keith described for finishing is pricisely the way I was taught and continue to practice. I have been paticularly interested in the adverse comments about Neat-Lac....thinking I was just out of date and out of touch, because I love the stuff!

As a point of interest...while working at Porters, years ago, Neat-Lac was the only sealer allowed to be used on saddles or any other gear or equipment. We reconditioned a lot of saddles in those days and all of them went out soaped/oiled and Neat-Lac'd.

Smells pretty good too!

[Shelly]

Keith,

Do you like to use the antique paste, or the liquid form of antique??

[kseidel]

I prefer the paste antique. Partly because I have more experience with the paste. I don't like highlighters. Just can't get the same effect. Some of the paste antique is pretty thin and has a lot of liquid floating on the surface. This is harder to use and has a tendancy to penetrate the base coat of neat lac, making the leather quite a bit darker.

Do you use liquid antiques? If so, what kinds and what are the properties and effects? Maybe There is something new that will work better.....

Keith

[Shelly]

HI,

Actually, I don't use the liquids - paste here, as well. I was really hoping you might have given them a try and had a comment or two about them...maybe someone else on the forum has used them, and can tell us what they do/don't like about them, and what applications they like to use them in. I've been having issues with some of the edge dyes...on my headstalls, personal goods, casework, etc, and saddles on occasion, if I dye edges, I can wait overnight before applying finish, and the dye wants to strip off on the wool pad, and muddy the tooling - pisses me off! I've tried really light applications, etc, and get the same results...one thing I tried recently that was interesting - did a belt for a customer, and, rather than using the same old steps as before, I had seen Feibings had a edge dye that has the sponge applicator, sort of like shoe polish - gave me the idea to try using a big Marks A Lot, with the real wide end - the permanent type. I used that on the belt, did my finish, and had hardly any bleedoff to speak of on the wool pad. I considered that almost a home run - pretty easy to apply, not messy, and after I let it dry a few hours, was easy to finish and it didn't muddy up the rest of the work...I was hesitant to mention this method on the forums, just because it didn't seem to carry over as 'very professional'...but, sometimes if it works...I wish I could find these markers in mahogany or cordovan...some type of brown...

[bruce johnson]

Shelly,

I was taught to use Sharpies for edges 15 years ago. The saddlemaker that showed me that, also was using them for background dyeing and lettering besides edges. I have used several brands over time, and have some favorites. I like the Pilot refillable carton markers in black for edges. Add extra ink to keep them moister than you might want for paper. I buy them and the refill ink bottles at a local office supplier. They have the "jumbo" nib and do a good job on most edges with one pass. I have some chisel point makers in brown also. I think they are MarksALot. Sharpie makes a nice fine and ultra-fine marker in brown also. I have tried some other brands and these are my favorites. One brand of black marker looked alright, but faded to a lovely purple color in about two weeks. I tossed those. I have found the normal Sharpies do a better job for me on leather (oiled or not yet) than the "industrial" Sharpies. The Industrials sometimes are a little streaky.

I don't do much work with other colors. I have not had the demand or expectations for much color work. I had a guy a couple years ago who wanted a Bible cover with a cross in silver and old turquoise. The robin egg blue Sharpie marker on oiled leather gave me the turquoise color, and the silver Sharpie gave me the silver. I'll attach a pic for the example. Saved me messing around ordering color dye or acrylics, and gave a good durable coloring. I use the reds some, but not much else.

With some of the reformulations and products being discontinued, I think we are going to have a lot of new things to play with. Part of it is going to be borrowing chemicals and finishes from other venues like the wood finishers and office suppliers. Plain carton and sign markers can be bought from a few suppliers. Beilers sell them. You can put spirit dye in them, edge dressings, what ever and slather it on edges too.

[Go2Tex]

I prefer the paste antique. Partly because I have more experience with the paste. I don't like highlighters. Just can't get the same effect. Some of the paste antique is pretty thin and has a lot of liquid floating on the surface. This is harder to use and has a tendancy to penetrate the base coat of neat lac, making the leather quite a bit darker.

Do you use liquid antiques? If so, what kinds and what are the properties and effects? Maybe There is something new that will work better.....

Keith

I bought a quart bottle of liguid antigue from Zack White about 6 years ago. Still have some left, so I don't use it too often, since I also prefer the paste. But the Zack's stuff will get down into the fine cuts and when I need a little touch-up close to stitching where I need a lot of control, I apply it with a small brush. Zack's resist is an acrylic, very much like Resolene and seals the leather completely. Of couse, you can't get oil through it.

[daviD A Morris]

G'day David'

. . .

Sorry for the length of this post. Your question required a long answer. I hope this is the information that you wanted.

Keith

Keith,

Thanks heaps for that, and to all the others who have contributed. I've printed this topic to keep if for future reference.

Regards

dam

[AZThunderPony]

This is exactly the info I have been looking for. Very good thread. I also have archived it.

However, some 30 years ago I stopped using neatsfoot oil to oil my saddles and equipment with because it rotted the thread out. I was told by what was then an old-timer saddler not to use it but to use pure Mink oil instead. I have used pure mink oil heated to a liquid form ever since and have been very happy with the results over the years. I'm curious if anyone uses mink oil instead of neatsfoot and if so why or why not? Any opinions on this?

;)S

[oldtimer]

This is exactly the info I have been looking for. Very good thread. I also have archived it.

However, some 30 years ago I stopped using neatsfoot oil to oil my saddles and equipment with because it rotted the thread out. I was told by what was then an old-timer saddler not to use it but to use pure Mink oil instead. I have used pure mink oil heated to a liquid form ever since and have been very happy with the results over the years. I'm curious if anyone uses mink oil instead of neatsfoot and if so why or why not? Any opinions on this?

S

First, in my opinion there are as many legends on oils rotting thread as there are oils and people discussing the matter, I don´t believe it for a second. I believe that the "rotted thread" is more a function of dust and grime that becomes abrasive during time. Second, I don´t believe that "Mink oil" is mink oil. The grease in the "Mink oil" labeled jars look like and smell like lard from pigs. I have been trapping minks many years ago, and a mink does not contain much grease, and I´m uncertain if there are as many minks on this earth to fill all jars of Mink oil that are for sale around the world ? Pure neatsfoot oil is the substance you get when boiling cow feet AND also pigs feet, so actually it is almost the same substance as mink oil. That´s my opinion on mink oil, neatsfoot oil and rotting threads. Leather needs some kind of lubrication to keep soft and supple , and either neatsfoot oil or mink oil is probably the best alternative.

/ Knut

Edited February 18, 2009 by oldtimer

[oldtimer]

I guess Mink Oil is a trade mark and the jar labeled with a pic of a mink, and that is where the connection to a mink ends. My brother in law drives a Chevrolet SUV, but one day I found out that the car was built i South Korea, so in my mind it is just a trade mark, it is not a real Chevrolet . The trade mark promises more than the content can live up to. Sorry, didn´t mean to hijack!

Edited February 19, 2009 by oldtimer

[AZThunderPony]

Good info, much appreciated. Learning new things all the time.

;)S

[Frank]

After doing a couple of saddle and some odds and ends things, I have really come to like the U-82 saddlers oil from Weaver. It's very light and absorbs instantly. The stuff seems to penetrate the leather exceptionally well. I then finish with tan-kote like a lot of you all do. My instructor and I did some mixing of oils while I was out there and tested them on leather. The straight U-82 did the best job as far as penetration. We just rubbed it on quickly with a small piece of shearling.

[JerryLevine]

Hi All,

Lots of stuff above about various different oils, etc, but no one addressed the difference between Pure Neatsfoot oil and Compound Neatsfoot. I know the latter has some 'additives', including some mineral oil (or so I understand). But what is it that makes compund neatsfoot something that is avoided by just about everyone?

I did meet a saddle maker in Florida who prefers compund to pure because the additives repel mildrew and insects (didn't ask about the mice though!) and ultraviolet light. So two supplimentary questions: 1. Do these additives actually repel mildew and insects and protect from UV and 2. I assume these properties would be considered to be "good things", what is the problem with compound neatsfoot that makes everyone steer clear of it?

Many thanks,

Jerry

[barra]

I use a few different preparations depending on the item or season.

Strap goods. Dales gold medal dubbin, made by Carr, Day and Martin. This stuff is a honey colour and has a gell like consisitency. I really do not know what is in it but do like the effect. I notice it is no longer on the Carr, Day and Martin website as a listed product anymore.

Saddles and harness. Either a couple of Australian dressings called Ge-Wy or Jay-el or RM Williams saddle dressing. I live about 10 minutes drive from the RM Williams factory so it is easy to come by for me.

Barra

Edited April 12, 2009 by barra

[jimsaddler]

I use a few different preparations depending on the item or season.

Strap goods. Dales gold medal dubbin, made by Carr, Day and Martin. This stuff is a honey colour and has a gell like consisitency. I really do not know what is in it but do like the effect. I notice it is no longer on the Carr, Day and Martin website as a listed product anymore.

Saddles and harness. Either a couple of Australian dressings called Ge-Wy or Jay-el or RM Williams saddle dressing. I live about 10 minutes drive from the RM Williams factory so it is easy to come by for me.

Barra

Hi Barra

I just read your mention of Gee Wy and remember the fact that it is recomended for cleaning the Chrome work on Cars. I've had to knock off for the day after repairing Saddles that were GREASED with it. B###dy stuff.Jay El is a Beeswax Dressing and quite good, the original recipe for it was to use Artists Turpentine to dissolve the Beeswax but they changed it and used Mineral Turpentine.

Olive Oil can have Castor oil added to it (1 large Spoon to 1/2 pint) to stop Mice being attracted to it, in fact I used to dress Top Turnout Show Saddles and Equipment with such a mixture to great effect.

So here is the original Beeswax Dressing recipe that I have used for nearly 50 years to keep Leather from going dark. Followed by a second recipe for Plaiting Grease which will also do a similar job.

1/2 lb Bleached Beeswax (Boiled to take the Honey out of it) aprox 3/4pint Pure (Artists)Turpentine. Shave or crumble the Beeswax into small pieces and pour it into the Turpentine in a large open mouth Jar and cap it. Shake it when ever you pass by until it is all disolved and combined into a sludgy paste. Keep it sealed when not used. This paste can be applied to your Leather evenly, in a warm area to assist in penetration. after a few hours it can be polished with a soft cotton cloth. Hey presto Water proof, preservative and Lubrication in one. RM's is similar but with the additon of Lanoline.

Plaiting Grease. A cake of Washing Soap,shaved into flakes (I use sunlight), 1/2 lb pure Lard (Pig Fat). Dissolve the cake of Soap in aprox 1 pint of Warm water overnight until you have a Jelly. Put in medium Saucepan and bring to simmer, add the Lard to melt with the hot Soap. When melted stir thoroughly and remove from Heat. Continue stirring and place the Saucepan in a few inches of Water in the Sink and continue stirring until the mixture cools to a Creamy White Foamy concoction. This dressing used to be used by Whip Makers while Plaiting thier Whips as it helps keep the Rooskin Pliable. I have found that it also is a good Saddle and Leather Dressing that also doesn't darken very much when used lightly over several applications.

I hope that these recipes are useful to you all.

Kindest Regards. Jim.

[barra]

Jim. I have a similar recipe.

Tallow

Beeswax (disolved in gum turpentine)

Macadamia oil (similar to mink oil)

Water

Lecithin (to emulsify the oils and water)

Small amount of eucalyptus oil to act as a mould inhibitor

Barra